To be completely honest; Juggernauts will never really be 'fun' to play against

Malicious Metal··47 votes·4,178 views

If you look at Juggernauts at a concept you see that they're intended to be these titanic threats on the battlefield with extreme damage and durability, basically being a form of Carry that try to just fling themselves into battle and hope that the enemy is stupid enough to either ignore them or just play into their strengths.

An Ideal Juggernaut is always relevant and a TEAM effort to keep down, going beyond just killing him but denying him any setup or opportunity to get rolling and completely flattening your team. Their design is one of bare-bone utility and the rest of their power budget just dumped into damage and tankiness in order to make them extremely lethal when actually fought rather than being threatening by other means like actual Crowd Control or any other form of Team utility.

They're selfish characters and embody the Carry Mentality of Top laners who'd prefer taking matters in their own hands and singlehandedly being the Backbone of their team, trying to just rely on themselves to win. And that's completely fine!

It's just that their design in general, as "fair" as it may sound on paper, will never truly be something people will enjoy playing against. They're overbearing for "most" Melee champions and get completely shut down by range. They're binary as hell and they scale off the enemy's stupidity.

If the enemy doesn't stop them in their tracks they're going to completely anhiliate the opposition and just carry their own team to victory. During laning phase ONE player is bound to not have ANY fun in a Juggernaut lane, be it their unlucky enemy who just so happens to have picked a tank, or the Juggernaut himself having been counterpicked by some ranged champion.

At this point I think we need to accept that the Juggernauts as a class are always bound to make people unhappy seeing that their entire core as a class is being these hulking Threats that will steamroll you when left unchecked.

But hey, at least they're not Assassins, right? https://moviesfilmsandflix.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/x-men-the-last-stand-juggernaut-gif.gif

71 Comments

Critmaster Garen33 votes

so whats the point here really?

its not like marksmen feel any fun to play with or against. divers dont feel fun to play against. assassins dont feel fun to play against, mages apparantly dont feel fun to play against either.

out of the available types of carries, when it comes to being able to play around them, juggernauts are more on the fair side than a lot of the others.

its just a lot of people have a warped point of view and only know the concept of "tanks" from other types of games as anything that is hard to take down, and have this idea that a character whos hard to kill shouldnt be able to deal a lot of damage.

part of the problem is how underappreciated utility is in genral. hence why the support role and actual tanks arent very popular overall.

gameplay counters and utility are a harder to quantify than damage/tank ratios, which is why a lot of people get fixated on the latter.

Abyssphere6 votes

I think the point is either:

  1. Juggernauts are never gonna be something people want to play against - get over it and stop complaining. or
  2. Juggernauts are unhealthy and we should probably do something about it

Given it's a MM thread I'd assume it's more the former.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Every class is something you don't want to play against. Every mechanic is something you don't want to play against, as long as it makes you lose.

Off Meta Evan4 votes

now obviously it depends on the champion, but i like going up against divers, mages, and assassins for the most part. (marksmen are aids you're not wrong.) I just think that juggernauts for the most part have the issue of "if i counter you GG, if you counter me BG." which is unintuitive. i don't want a 30 to 20 minute game to be miserable the entire way through just because i picked a certain champion. in other roles like mid, even if you're countered, you can just roam. bot lane theres 2 people making more variables for error and making match ups harder to be one sided but top lane you're just totally fucked.

MLDzXnRRR5 votes

Black Cleaver is definitely on the OP side of the balance.

Big Lincoln5 votes

juggernauts are the fairest carry class in the game

they aren't aoe burst CC like a majority of these cancer mages they can't point-click and CC you while dumping ridiculous damage on you they don't build crit to shit on you with 1000 damage per rightclick from long range

They walk up and they sit in the middle of your team and they try to survive that way.

the only real flaw with juggernauts is that riot pushes it too far into one extreme. They're 'binary' because they offer absolutely nothing else but the ability to walk at you (sometimes they get to walk a little faster than usual) and do damage. They can't hold you down to do that damage; they need someone else for that. They have no answer to hard disengage or the bullshit that is League's perfect kiting system. This is why Darius is the best and always will be; he can contribute more than just raw damage.

not to mention that Illaoi, Garen, Skarner are all wrapped up in these shitty gimmicks instead of just being solid characters; so when those gimmicks actually work in their favor, nobody thinks they got fairly outplayed, they think it was horse shit.

SteelMankind1 votes

In defense of mages, very few point and click CCs still exist in this day and age.

Also, the gimmicks are kinda neccesary to keep juggernauts from feeling too similar.

Big Lincoln3 votes

point and click doesnt mean a thing

and it certainly doesnt justify mages being aoe monsters with massive range and endless pushing power on top of obscene combo damage

no to toxic5 votes

Camille <----- you see this. This is a champion thats not fun to play against. Garen <----- you see this. This is a champion who can get easily shut down if you play your cards right.

What i mean to say is Camille is OP pls nerf her.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

its your pov... i prefer battle against Camille over Garen

Yalathanil1 votes

What are you playing as? I play as Teemo, put my cool shades on and poke/poison him to death

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

MonkeyKing

after yeah, camille is op...

JavelinJoe1 votes

Illaoi thinks so too :)

Titanium704 votes

Uhm.. actually I tend to disagree here.

Juggernauts are telegraphed and slow - both sides always know what they intend to do. This way both sides can use altering tactics to stop them which - in my opinion - is fun.

As infuriating it can be getting 1v3ed by a fed Darius... In a strategy game, you will always have those SuperUnits capeable of doing so but also tools to deal with them. For me Juggernauts are an interesting addition to the game although they rendered nearly every pick I once had for Top comepltely useless. x'D

As long as Juggernauts are defined by DMG and DEF and dont have access to High Range, mobility and/or CC everything is fine.

I can understand your argumentation to some degree - but I dont support it. Maybe because Assassins really take this spot of the most unhealthy class in the game from my point of view. ;)

Pale Pirate3 votes

They're selfish characters and embody the Carry Mentality of Top laners who'd prefer taking matters in their own hands and singlehandedly being the Backbone of their team, trying to just rely on themselves to win.

No, when the late-game start, they are too immobile to do things easily (either sidepush, or teamfight successfully). They need help. People who want such champions usually play Jax , Irelia , e.t.c late-game scaling fighters with a not too bad laning phase.

Oelyk3 votes

Juggernauts are not fun because counterplay to them is just to avoid them...

Sasogwa3 votes

Nobody's fun to play against and some depends on what you are playing. For exemple as a juggernaught/melee carry player I hate the guts out of ADC's to an unreasonable level, and I wouldn't really care facing a juggernaught that I find kinda fair. But I guess if I played melee champs that get destroyed in 1v1 against juggs I wouldn't enjoy it, and if I played ranged carries I would hate assassins so... Yeah, I don't think juggs are particularly more annoying to play against than any other class.

D2Vincent2 votes

I think the real question is: What is the best way to properly make a MAGE Juggernaut? Because when we find out we're gonna make a champion out of it and then we'll call it "Mordekaiser" ;P

Craft Zeppelin5 votes

{quoted}

I think the real question is: What is the best way to properly make a MAGE Juggernaut? Because when we find out we're gonna make a champion out of it and then we'll call it "Mordekaiser" ;P

pretty much. swain

WoonStruck5 votes

Vladimir is much closer. Galio as well.

More-so Vlad, though, simply because he gets cucked by melee when they get on him; the inverse of typical juggernauts.

Hell, even Karthus is closer to a mage juggernaut than Swain.


Swain offers a decent amount of utility and the ability persistently zone. His ability to make picks from 900+ range practically excludes him from 'mage juggernaut'.

Malicious Metal9 votes

I disagree on that last statement.

Swain is by design more of a Mage Juggernaut than most other Mages in the game simply by him building rather tanky, surviving a lot of punishment and being a damage threat as well.

Karthus is squishy as balls.

And hell, Darius can make picks with his pull as well, does that make him unable to be classified as a Juggernaut?

WoonStruck1 votes

Darius' pull is also very short range; less than half of Swain's W.

Also, you can't exactly call Karthus squishy in regards to being a juggernaut when he has his passive. Its a replacement for tankiness. It IS his tankiness.

Who's going to do more damage? A Swain being hard focused down, or a Karthus? Who's closer to an unstoppable force in this sense?


Either way, battle mages are all effectively 'mage juggernauts', but if someone were to consider that separate from battle mages, Swain definitely should not fit in there unless his W range were to be nerfed, probably with compensation.

His 'kill range' is above and beyond what most juggernauts, and likely 'mage juggernauts' would ever dream of.

Juggernauts are about supposedly significant trade-offs, and Swain doesn't really exemplify that.

Malicious Metal3 votes

Mordekaiser's kill range is also around 600 range to be fair. Just by the way they play Swain's more akin to a Juggernaut that Karthus as he just wants to get in there and brawl in close range whereas Karthus' just tries to just AoE Nuke the enemy, suicide and then just press R.

Juggernaut's main selling point is their durability when in combat and their strong damage, something Swain brings to the table, but with the added benefit of a Snare as well.

Vlad might just be the most Juggernaut-like Mage there is with his low utility and strong mix of survivability and damage.

Troll for Trump1 votes

I don't think Vlad is really a juggernaut. He wants to be sorta far away, but not too far away. In the middle.

Karthus, Swain, and Galio want to be in the front lines, rushing into battle. Of course, it's not literally charging headfirst like Juggernauts. Because they're mages, they have different strengths and weaknesses which need to be played around. But generally, on those three, you won't be in the backline, or even in the middle; You'll be in the front. You'll be a threat unless you are killed. The main reason those three fit into the category is because they have something that prevents them from being killed Swain being the heal from ult, Galio has Bulwark and reduced dmg from ult, while Karthus has passive.

Fiddle, for instance, should be a juggernaut that charges into the center of the fight, and is meant to have some sustain and be a constant threat, but he doesn't really do that.

Chogath kinda does that, but is even more outdated than fiddlesticks Gragas Singed (not so mage-y)

Yalathanil2 votes

Singed

Doozku2 votes

It's still fun to dodge every illoai tenticle with yasuo and feel like the matrix.

Smitty Manjensen2 votes

As soon as someone brings valid points against him he abandons his thread, reaching Diamond got him over his head it seems.

Off Meta Evan2 votes

honestly.... i enjoy fighting Garen Yorick Nasus and Illaoi (pre 6) either their kits are simple enough to outplay if you're smart/ resourceful enough or they have telegraphed abilities that can be dodged if you're good enough. Darius and Mordekaiser are the two biggest offenders in the not fun to play against category because their kits really don't have all that much outplay potential if you're countered by them. Garen against say, sion, i can wait for garen to Q before i cc him so i don't get silenced and murdered, yorick i can just dodge his E/W, nasus has a garbage early that i can abuse, illoai i can dodge her shit until she hits 6 in which case i'm just fucked. with say darius, he's gonna just E me, auto rest W, get a free Q in because i'm slowed and can't dodge, and keep on butt fucking me until he has 5 stacks and kills me or i manage to cc him and escape with barely any hp.

SteelMankind2 votes

Disagree entirely. Back when Ashe was sleeper around mid-year last season (the patch dorectly after the Lucian nerfs) I spammed the hell out of her, and I specifically remember thinking how fun it is to kite champs like Darius despite not having a dash or movement speed boost.

It is unfun to play against juggernauts as tanks, mages (besides battle mages and Vel'Koz), and some divers. Plenty of champs have ways of beating them.

TheHappyReaperz2 votes

I do believe that he said it was hard for Juggernauts to go against ranged champs, not the other way around.

Knoyle2 votes

I have fun playing against actual tanks Top lane though. Nautilus Maokai Poppy Shen Sion

Shahamut1 votes

The question though is "why"? What makes those matchups fun for you?

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Since i like playing with and against actual tanks toplane i like the fact it really is a skill matchup. Most toplane fights are unload all your bullshit rotation and hope to kill someone or run. If a tank wants to win a fight he needs skill in terms of wave management to either freeze waves to deny cs and open up gank paths or let two waves stack to fight your enemy in those waves for tons of damage. Might not be the most interesting in terms of mechanics but definitely skillfull that's why its a shame in EU LCS all they show is ResidentSleeper gameplay from another Syndra pressing R "outplaying" her opponent.

Knoyle3 votes

I just hate the playstyle of high damage vs high damage. It feels there is not much time to think and one small mistake destroys you for almost the whole game. Damage roles just tend to snowball so hard it's frustrating. It feels more fulfilling laning against tanks with tanks.

Jeddy0172 votes

I'll be honest here: There's not a single champ I have fun playing against. There's tolerable & there's frustrating, but no fun. The fun comes from what champ I'm playing & how much fun I'm having.

On topic: Juggernauts will likely never be a fun class to play against. But on the bright side, the class as a whole isn't a major health problem to the game. Yes, there have been some moments in the game's history where shit was out of whack with Juggernauts.

Verxint2 votes

Nothing is fun to play against if your definition of fun is always having the clear advantage.

Personally, that moment when Darius gets 5 stacks and suddenly becomes the most important thing in the fight is really exciting, even if I'm not playing him.

KoKoboto2 votes

I have fun playing against Illaoi, being on my toes and dodging tentacles

Variks the Loyal2 votes

I disagree that Juggernauts are binary. They're simple, but not binary. Every Juggernaut has their own theme or 'niche.'

Darius - Teamfighting Juggernaut. Does really well when facing a lot of enemies because of his Q heal and his R resets.

Garen - 'Assassin' Juggernaut. Focuses entirely on defeating a single person on the enemy team to remove them from the battle.

Illaoi - Area Control Juggernaut. Makes it literally impossible for enemies to fight her within her territory.

Yorick - Splitpush Juggernaut. Not the best teamfighter, but while he's teamfighting, he's also pushing another lane.

Trundle - Duelist Juggernaut. Excels in 1v1 encounters, where he can steal all of his targets stats and fight them.

Skarner - Kidnapper Juggernaut. Most Juggernauts just charge to the backline. He turns the enemy backline into the frontline. Spires are gimmicky, though.

So on, so forth for the others. I honestly have no idea where Volibear would land on the spectrum, though, he needs some more Juggernaut work.

JavelinJoe1 votes

I think what he meant by binary is that each juggernaut has only 2 outcomes: play their intended style, or become useless.

Quepha1 votes

Juggernauts are insanely fun to kite. The entire adc fantasy is to chip one down.

midnight oil241 votes

Don't you insult my kha'zix! he's just fine and he's an assassin.

Slich Bissi1 votes

Is juggernaut the new term for what was once called "Tanky DPS?"

JavelinJoe1 votes

Tanky DPS

This is pure cancer to most forms of balance.

Slich Bissi1 votes

Okay.

That does not answer my question.

I don't know what a "Juggernaut" is. I know it's a hero in DOTA 2.

I played maybe 100 or less games in 2016. Probably just as many in 2015. I've played like 5 since 2017. I don't play often so I'm not up to snuff with all the terms.

People used to call people like Mundo, Olaf, Shyvana, Renekton and so forth "Tanky DPS"...then at some point "Bruisers" or something....so.

Is a Juggernaut just the term for those heroes or is it something different/new?

JavelinJoe1 votes

they are a sub class of fighters. Basically tankier champions with potentially shit tons of damage, at least in simple terms. Darius Garen Illaoi are some examples. All are melee. All have little to no movement abilities outside of a movement speed buff or a very short leap (like a Teemo's width short). They don't often have hard CC, but sometimes have some soft CC like a slow. These champions usually have just 1 or 2 play/build styles too. Common items are item 3742 item 3025 item 3071 item 3068 item 3065 item 3748 item 3078 item 3143 item 3053 item 3512 with most of the champions prioritizing BC as first item, then full tank. Most are AD based, and often have some % health damage worked into their kit. Average wave clear, but good split pushing power since they are somewhat hard to chase off. They can solo hard carry a game if fed. Less priority than the ADC/Assassin, but equal to that of the jungler (usually) in target priority. Almost always go TOP lane. Biggest counter is chaining Hard CC and slows.

Term was made last year around worlds with the Juggernaut update where Garen Darius Skarner and Mordekaiser got group reworked to be excessively OP (morde had almost 100% pick/ban for that worlds), then periodically nerfed/changed to where they currently are now.

Basically they are champions who you don't think you have to devote time to killing them in fights, but you know you have to or they will shit on you and your team.

Slich Bissi1 votes

All that said "yes". They are "tanky dps."

Cool, glad to know they're still a problem in 2017 (they've been complained about for years)

Also they were introduced, at the time, to counter the meta which was heavy ADC that were slaughtering everything so it became an arms race.

They gave these guys the tankiness to take a hit, the mobility to get to the ADC and the damage to actually deal with them.

It's been a problem ever since apparently. Feels like 2011 all over again.

What I mean by "arms race" is that the more mobility, tankiness, damage and overall tools to deal with what they were supposed to counter, they began having to give what they countered (in this case ADC's and mages) more gap openers, cc, self peels and so forth to be able to not get 100% shut down.

There was a popular tanky dps meta for a long time. Guess now it's "The Juggernaut" meta Kappa.

Big Lincoln1 votes

juggernauts are immobile bruisers

so trundle, nasus, mord illaoi darius etc

mobile ones are now called 'divers'

it's a really stupid way of categorizing them and it will probably just mean they'll be horribly homogenized later down the road

Slich Bissi1 votes

Ah so they're tanky DPS without the gap closers kek.

I think the old term is better because it's a catch all for anything less tanky than an actual full on tank, but also something that does more damage than a full on tank but less than a true carry or assassin.

It's a half-step between tank and damage dealer (assassin/carry). Which can account for mobility or not.

Big Lincoln1 votes

juggernaut is at least a cool name. raidboss would be more accurate and easily recognizable but at least we aren't called divers xddDDD

Slich Bissi1 votes

I reference you to this old ass thread from way back when: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1764751

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