Tryndamere now does +35% damage on a crit instead of +100% damage,

Critkeeper··1 votes·769 views

but his fury gives 1% rather than 0.35% crit chance per 1 fury. (thats an obvious nerf, read on)

Obviously that is a nerf late game because currently he can reach damn near 100% crit chance and actually do double damage (more with ie), but with this change he will overcap on crit chance and do only 1.35 times his damage.

It is also a nerf to his early game because he can't get a string of 2 or 3 crits for double damage and completely cheese the enemy laner. This is tempered slightly by the fact that each point of fury is worth more crit chance, and that allows him to build fury faster, which means more frequent heals. Overall its a nerf.

So we add the following:

Each 1% crit chance Tryndamere has beyond 100% he converts into 1% crit damage. For example, shiv would bring his crit damage from 1.35 to 1.55 if he is at full fury. If he is at less than 80 fury he would still do only 1.35 because his crit chance would still be less than 100%.

What this basically does is drastically reduce Tryndamere's damage at low fury late game without significantly changing it from what it is now with full fury with a normal build, so he can't cheese people as easily out of the blue with a couple of crits from empty fury. It also gives Tryndamere the option to concentrate on a crit chance heavy build (forfeiting the ability to do as much damage to towers) for much greater damage to units at full fury and easier fury generation. This also allows us to justify maybe extending his ultimate's duration since he has lost some of his assassinating potential and requires the extra time to generate fury in a fight, depending on how valuable his ability to convert crit chance into crit damage really is.

I'm not trying to force a specific playstyle on Tryndamere players, or trying to suggest a specific "crit chance heavy" gimmick that is so good compared to Tryndamere's other options that it becomes the defacto standard. I'm Trying to give him more situational build options so playing with or against him doesn't end up feeling the same every single game, and so he can be a little more flexible in how he chooses to interact with the opposing team. I'm trying to make it so that he choose to build as a split pusher, or choose to build as an assassin, so that he can have the option to team fight without shooting himself in the foot for choosing to do so, if he chooses to both build that way and put a lot of effort into always maintaining high fury for whenever a team fight might start.

Aside from that it makes him less frustrating to fight with early game because his damage over time is more smooth. At late game it makes his ability to brush camp or push out a couple crits even at zero fury less frustrating because his critical strikes don't do as much damage as they do now unless he overcaps on crit chance, which he can only do if he has a lot of fury to begin with, and he won't if he didn't hit something recently.

This makes it so that he has to maintain fury at all stages of the game, not just early game. He would need fury early game for the same reasons he does now, and he needs to keep high fury late game even more than he does now because he can't expect to do a lot of burst with a string of 4 crits from 45% crit chance with no fury-- instead he would do far less damage with the same items at zero fury because he starts out doing only 1.35 times his ad on a crit rather than 2.0 times his ad.

Since a lot of his power is tied to something with both clear (you can see his fury) and meaningful (all his damage is tied to it and he expends it if you force him to heal) counterplay, we can afford to allow him to do more damage than he currently does at full fury, which underscores his dueling abilities and diminishes his assassinating abilities. It makes his fury resource less trivial late game, so he becomes more interesting to fight and play with.

The reason we want to make Tryndamere a lot more dependent on managing his fury late game is primarily because right now Tryndamere's fury isn't really that meaningful late game. Fighting Tryndamere when he is low on fury isn't much better than fighting him at full fury. With the suggested change, fighting Tryndamere when he is low on fury becomes an advantage that is every bit as significant as it is in the early game. In fact, so much so we can buff his ideal case damage so that it isn't just an advantage, its damn near a necessity.

That makes playing against Tryndamere a lot more dynamic. An assassin might want to stalk Tryndamere and wait for him to completely expend his fury for example, rather than just go on him because the difference is negligible at end game. It also allows Tryndamere players to feel good about doing a good job of maintaining high fury, which should ideally separate good Tryndamere players from bad ones, but right now fails to do so because the difference isn't large enough.

4 Comments

Teridax681 votes

With a change like this, getting item 3031 would allow Tryndamere to deal between a guaranteed 177.5% or 210% autoattack damage, depending on how you want to calculate the crit damage bonus, up from what is currently an average of 150% autoattack damage on average. With that item alone, he could just sit on a full Fury bar all day and deal more damage than before (and, with lifesteal, would have little reason to spend Fury at all, in most situations).

Overall, I think this is an overly complicated way of solving an issue that is inherently tied to the randomness of crit: Tryndamere's laning phase is super cheesy, but also super unstable, and the instability goes both ways. Not getting a crit at the right time can cost Trynd his lane dominance, just as a lucky crit can snowball him into an early lead. I think the best way to go about fixing him would be to tackle crit first, and make it both more reliable (for both the user and the opponent) and more stable during the laning phase, if not completely non-random.

Critkeeper1 votes

{quoted}

With a change like this, getting item 3031 would allow Tryndamere to deal between a guaranteed 177.5% or 210% autoattack damage, depending on how you want to calculate the crit damage bonus, up from what is currently an average of 150% autoattack damage on average. With that item alone, he could just sit on a full Fury bar all day and deal more damage than before (and, with lifesteal, would have little reason to spend Fury at all, in most situations).

Overall, I think this is an overly complicated way of solving an issue that is inherently tied to the randomness of crit: Tryndamere's laning phase is super cheesy, but also super unstable, and the instability goes both ways. Not getting a crit at the right time can cost Trynd his lane dominance, just as a lucky crit can snowball him into an early lead. I think the best way to go about fixing him would be to tackle crit first, and make it both more reliable (for both the user and the opponent) and more stable during the laning phase, if not completely non-random.

Average damage isn't as important as the amount of damage he is potentially capable of over 3 or 4 lucky crits, because that is the problem edge case.

He would also only do only 152.5% damage on a crit unless he had more than 75 fury with IE, and only after he starts to acquire more fury than that would his crit chance start to exceed 100% and would he convert the crit chance into crit damage.

As for the lifesteal remark, he would lifesteal for less overall if his opponent can give him an honest challenge in the lane because he would overkill mininos (and lifesteal) for less damage.

Talamare1 votes

Okay, Lemme understand this

His Crit Damage is reduced to +35% instead of +100% His Fury grants 1% Crit chance per 1 Fury Every 1% Crit chance he has above 100% turns into Crit damage

So you are basically FORCING him to get Crit Damage runes providing 35% more Crit Damage Puts us at 70%

He buys an IE first item, Which puts us at 145% (aka how much he is now, except he now ALSO has 100% Crit chance behind it)

Then he gets a Phantom Dancer, for another 170% Crit Damage Actually make that 2, so 200% Crit Damage

So now his Crits deal literally 3x more damage than his auto attack~ He is probably now critting for 2-3k damage

Critkeeper1 votes

{quoted}

Okay, Lemme understand this

His Crit Damage is reduced to +35% instead of +100% His Fury grants 1% Crit chance per 1 Fury Every 1% Crit chance he has above 100% turns into Crit damage

So you are basically FORCING him to get Crit Damage runes providing 35% more Crit Damage Puts us at 70%

He buys an IE first item, Which puts us at 145% (aka how much he is now, except he now ALSO has 100% Crit chance behind it)

Then he gets a Phantom Dancer, for another 170% Crit Damage Actually make that 2, so 200% Crit Damage

So now his Crits deal literally 3x more damage than his auto attack~ He is probably now critting for 2-3k damage

Bonus crit damage works by multiplying the bonus damage by a percentage, same as attack speed.

The base bonus damage for most champions is 1*AD, so with IE most champions go from 1 + 1 to 1 + 1 *(1.5) = 2.5

Tryndamere would go from 1 + 0.35 to 1 + 0.35*(1.5), which isn't that much. Even with a full page of crit damage runes you are talking about 1 + 0.35*(1.9), which is about 1.7

Even if the suggested numbers are bad that doesn't mean the concept is. You could just change the scaling by literally changing one number. In fact I intentionally underballed it by choosing numbers that are far lower than they would need to be, because actual numbers are determined in playtesting. Given these rough numbers I would think the proper coefficient would be closer to 2x rather than 1x the crit chance he has that exceeds 100%.

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