How to make Cull worth getting:

Desiderium·Feb 7, 2016·28 votes·3,734 views

Give it the same potion boost that Dark Seal has. It's obviously a farming item, so why not? Plus, it would make a cool AD mirror to Dark Seal.

62 Comments

DealthFeb 7, 201613 votes

So.. two things. First, you can only buy 1 potion with a cull whist dark seal lets you buy three, or refillable. Dark seal is typcally taken in the mid lane so its easy for the laner to go back and get potion whilst cull is taken in top/bot where potions are risky to go back and get. And second, Cull is farming item and Dark Seal is a killing item which makes them polar opposites, not "mirrors".

SpecterVonBarenFeb 8, 20162 votes

Plus, Dark Seal gives the increased healing because mid laners typically rely on spells so having it improve potions makes sense, Cull gives the buyer health on hit instead.

SoMNiaFeb 8, 20165 votes

The Dark Seal is not a farming item. It is a snowball item. It is designed to be strong early, and requires you to press that advantage in order to maintain and expand your lead. Cull is the opposite. It is a farming item, that encourages playing safe and biding your time. It sacrifices early power (relative to, say, Doran's Blade) for the sake of easier long-term gains. It is not meant to provide more power than other starts.

qetzelFeb 8, 20161 votes

Cull is more a farming item for a boring lane. It isn't to reward csing, it is for matchups where you can do little else - certain champions against old Shen, for example. It is there to give you an advantage if the enemy laner would otherwise ignore you, not to reward a champion like Nasus for ignoring their enemy.

Adding the increased potion duration would run against this idea.

Steel BlossomFeb 8, 20161 votes

I love how there's no AD early power snowballing item, while AD casters are probably the champions most dependent on snowballing. Goes to show how much Riot hates all assassins except for Zed

SoMNiaFeb 9, 20161 votes

That's because AD champions have powerful autoattacks. When one of them snowballs, it's a lot more disruptive. Most AP power is gated by cooldowns and mana. If an AD champ is OOM, they can still punch you in the face — or knock over a tower.

Steel BlossomFeb 9, 20161 votes

doesn't stop them from buffing Zed and then making a new item just for him, lol. I wonder where's the compensation buff for Talon Pantheon MonkeyKing for removing brutalizer and last whisper.

SoMNiaFeb 9, 20161 votes

That doesn't change anything I just said. Duskblade is expensive, anyway. And it's kind of redundant on Zed. Arguably helps Talon, more, since he's in a bad spot if his burst doesn't finish the job.

Also...Last Whisper was always supposed to be an anti-tank item, not a "burst squishies harder" item. Those champs have Ghostblade, Maw, and now Duskblade, totaling 40 flat pen. Last Whisper if you want to blow up Thresh.

Steel BlossomFeb 9, 20161 votes

Eh Talon's more AOE than bursting one person now, since it's so fucking hard to get off a successful assassination with so much CC and shields and heals.

Also, wtf happened to brutalizer? That thing gave you everything you needed for a fair price, and was extremely helpful to your snowballing. Now, it's two items. And Hydra got fucked over too. WTF did hydra and brutalizer do wrong? Why did they have to get gutted?

SoMNiaFeb 9, 20161 votes

Hydra? I don't follow. When did it get nerfed? Looks fine to me. If you mean Tiamat, it was too cheap for the power its passive provided, and too expensive otherwise. Now, the build path is much smoother. Even Fiora, who would rush Tiamat for the waveclear, is better off after that change, because it's much easier for her to get adequate waveclear after her first back.

As for Brutalizer, it was too efficient. It became the rush item for bruisers and AD assassins alike, which meant anything that didn't build out of it was automatically less attractive, and anything that did was required to have all of its stats. This consumed a significant portion of the power budget of certain items (e.g. old Warrior jungle enchantment, which now gives a solid 60 AD), and prevented Riot from providing meaningful choices in the non-marksman AD space.

Sure, we lost Brutalizer, but the new Ghostblade is more slot-efficient and a better buy, Maw of Malmortius is more attractive, the new Essence Reaver has a smooth build path, and Death's Dance provides a strong option for AD casters who want health sustain while granting some burst protection. Even Black Cleaver has a clearer identity and better build path (flat pen is for early damage and killing squishies; BC is for tank shredding, and nobody is a tank until mid game).

Steel BlossomFeb 9, 20161 votes

Hydra's recipe used to cost 600 gold, tiamat+vamp scepter, smoothest combine path in the entire game. Now it's as much of a struggle to build as everything else. Also, I loved the old youmuu much more. Youmuu+IE was 40% crit chance, and that was so good for AD casters. You could crit and cast, so you aren't shit late game without a huge snowball. Now, if you want crit, you have to get IE and another dedicated crit chance item, or the god expensive Essence Reaver. One of the biggest advantages of AD casters was a relatively cheaper full build, and that advantage is all but gone right now.

As for brutalizer, why the fuck can't we have something that we all like to rush? And why is it a bad thing that all items built out of brutalizer "required to have all of its stats" when every item in this game gave CDR anyways? I could care less about DD and all of it's fancy stuff if I can just get my critting youmuu back. Do you know how much it hurts Talon to have to unload his entire combo to kill a squishy late game?

SoMNiaFeb 9, 20161 votes

Well, you can't have critting Youmuu's, but you can have Duskblade. And ER isn't any more expensive than IE, anyway. If you're building IE, you're treading in the realm of expensive AD carry items, so the whole "cheaper AD caster build" idea is already out the window.

And the reason Brutalizer was sacked is that it's boring if everyone always has the same build and never has to make a choice. The reason it was bad for items to need all of Brutalizer's stats is that it provided three of them, so everything that included it was a hybrid item. Anything that excelled at a dedicated purpose wasn't built because everybody felt obligated to rush Brutalizer.

TL;DR: Choices. Diversity. Specialization. These are better than a "one size fits all" solution that homogenizes AD builds.

Steel BlossomFeb 9, 20161 votes

Back when Youmuu could crit, you only ever needed IE and youmuu's. Now, not only do you have to get expensive as fuck IE, but also a bonus crit chance item that's either another IE worth of gold, or gives 0 AD.

Brutalizer gave AD casters everything they needed for 1300ish gold, and taking away that REALLY hurts the power of AD casters after first back, and that's an issue duskblade can't solve. Now, its either you deal 1/3 less dmg, or your ult is on a 20 sec longer CD. What do we have against mages who rush armguard? Our cool look?

SoMNiaFeb 9, 20161 votes

Against mages who rush Armguard? Rush Dirk+Mantle or Hexdrinker into Maw of Malmortius, followed by Warhammer into Ghostblade.

Steel BlossomFeb 9, 20161 votes

And that'll help us more or less 100-0 them? It used to be that we could 100-0 each other in mid lane. Now, mages can sit under tower with armguard, and the lane might as well be called farm simulator.

SoMNiaFeb 9, 20161 votes

So you either 100-0 your opponent, or it's a farming simulator? No middle ground? Besides, if Brutalizer ever did that, Dirk will, too. Same damage, same arpen. Plus, Dirk+Longsword is cheaper than Brutalizer+Longsword was.

Edit: I made a mistake. I forgot Brutalizer was 25 AD. Well, Dirk+Longsword, then?

Steel BlossomFeb 9, 20161 votes

And Brutalizer had CDR...our spells could come up slightly quicker than theirs, and it made a big difference, kinda an element of surprise thing where they don't expect you to have a certain spell. Also, mid lane doesn't really have that much poking between an assassin and a mage after lvl 6+first back. If the mage takes more than 1/3 of his health worth of damage, he'll probably either back or call in jungle.

SoMNiaFeb 9, 20161 votes

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And Brutalizer had CDR...our spells could come up slightly quicker than theirs, and it made a big difference

If cooldowns are a concern, that means you're not 100-0 bursting someone. Make up your mind, eh? This is what I'm getting at. Making choices. What kind of power will you prioritize, instead of just getting a little bit of everything?

khorneyFeb 7, 20163 votes

I mean in my opinion it's better then Doran blade the ad difference means nothing, the lifesteal only passes cull once you have over 100 ad and the extra hp to me is okay but it works great if you stack it with the mastery tree. Cull is the most gold efficient item in the game. What's wrong with getting all your starting gold back and then some, if your a bad farmer and or can't last hit then don't get cull

Shrek LuigiFeb 7, 20162 votes

The stats from DBlade make a huge difference at level one, especially with the mastery points for lifesteal in the Ferocity tree and/or a couple lifesteal Quints.

The only time you'd want to buy a Cull is if you're playing a champ like Vayne/Kog and are planning to just farm the lane and outscale whoever you're up against. These champs aren't nearly as reliant on their offensive stats as they are on being patient, positioning safely and getting those last-hits in during lanephase, so they can afford to make the concession at lv1.

khorneyFeb 7, 20162 votes

Not really and your comparing to other things not just the items. I use it on varus and gee I win my lanephase I have 0 problem last hitting or clearing. I'll take the 2600 gold I get compared to the little you get from Doran. I did the math and estimated 100 cs x 20. 20 being the average cs gold adding the 450 I get from cull plus the selling gold. But hey me getting like 1k gold more then you just off of 1item must not be worth it......

DorkunedAurasFeb 7, 20161 votes

uhhhh, math fail.You're assuming the enemy isn't farming at all, and if they aren't, then you win laning regardless of your starting item.

khorneyFeb 8, 20162 votes

No I just did item for item so my math isn't a fail. this board is comparing the 2 items straight with 100 cs. And you are over thinking it there chief..and this other guy was like that's not even 2 long swords and okay how about the gold needed. To finish a 2nd bf or something who in there right mind will sell this to get a long sword.....

JayrettFeb 8, 20161 votes

Fail, Cull only gives 630~ gold over doran's. that's what, not even two long swords? you're better getting doran's for the chance to get two kills for about the same gold the cull gives after finishing the passive and getting the money a lot quicker.

khorneyFeb 8, 20162 votes

You really do not understand math and estimates. So I'll break it down for you. So I multiplied 20 gold which is the estimate for the melee cs x 100 for the amount cs needed to achieve cull and added the sell value to cull and I minused 450 for the Doran then added the sell amount. I used 20 because of not counting the siege cs nor the range cs which is like 17 or 18. And as you looked at the whole picture you see my point.....

khorneyFeb 8, 20162 votes

JayrettFeb 8, 20161 votes

and you failed even harder, cull give ONE extra per minion kill for 100 kills and then a bonus 350 gold on that 100th minion. 450 gold from the cull before selling it for roughly 183. which makes it give 630~ more gold over 10-15 minutes for less impact early on. Doran's blade can give the same amount of cs as the cull. in fact, it's easier to do it with doran's than the cull since cull has less ad and no execute passive.

khorneyFeb 8, 20161 votes

ur mad that im right but its cool keep denying yourself. 2 ad isnt goign to make a diff and i havent had problems so i dont see whjy ur complaining. my math estimates are right and you cant admit your wrong

JayrettFeb 8, 20161 votes

We are comparing the gold difference between cull and dorans at 100 minions. you are the one presenting the math wrong. You are saying the gold difference between cull at 100 minions and dorans at 0 minions. and this is a point I forgot to bring up earlier, but while yes cull gives aboue 1.5hp more per hit early, dorans gives an extra 80hp. which makes dorans come out on top for trades. most adcs will need 80-160 seconds to get more hp from cull than doran's hp. which in that time most adcs will have backed or died after that unless they were just poking, which won't matter too much since hp regen will cover most of that damage.

khorneyFeb 8, 20161 votes

and ur saying im going to dive on u at lvl 1

JayrettFeb 8, 20161 votes

um what? when did I say that? if you're refering to the hp vs lifesteal, dorans hp is stronger until 8~ minutes. which is when most adcs get 100+ ad. which makes doran's lifesteal stronger than.

khorneyFeb 8, 20161 votes

ohh man 7 hp vices what cull gets u

JayrettFeb 8, 20161 votes

Doran's give 80hp. which is alot for 8~ minutes. Cull takes way too long to pay out the extra 450 gold. you are not gonna benefit from it in anyway by the time you get it. doran's will give a kill or two by 10 minutes as opposed to Cull's 450 by 15 minutes. which is only a kill and a half.

delonixFeb 8, 20161 votes

I agree that the health from Doran's Blade is important in early all-ins, but I think you have some misconceptions. There is no significant difference in offensive stats between Doran's Blade and Cull. Cull's 3 health on hit is actually stronger than Doran's Blade's 3% lifesteal until your autoattacks are doing over 100 damage. The lifesteal mastery and runes stack additively with other lifesteal, so you'll get the same healing from that whether you start Cull or Doran's Blade.

You should actually want to buy a Cull every time you think you can farm the same as you would with Doran's Blade and not die. As long as you aren't dying, you will do the same amount of damage in early trades, and over 100 cs you will get a bonus 450 gold.

WingsofGulgazorFeb 8, 20161 votes

the problem is you'll miss cs because you'll be zoned from creep wave early becuase your weaker then the enemy. The second problem is if you die the enemy will snowball hard against you. The third problem is even if the matchup is going equal the enemy can buy a second dorans blade and continue to crush you harder.

So you lose

cs you could've got
fighting potential 3)map pressure
the ability for support to roam because they have to baby sit you. Which might not sound that bad but good supports roam and find many opportunities to do things around the map.
related to number 4 and that's the ability for the support to lay deep wards.
people underestimate doran blades. A person with 2 dorans blades even in there current nerfed state can still win a fight with someone with 1 doran blade and B.F sword.

The only way to win lane or not get crushed with cull that I could see would be how vayne wins against a caitlyn. That is hope the caitlyn doesn't know what she's doing and allows you to get the way to push toward her tower. With cull you have to push and then you get the same problem Caitlyn and Sona have. They are real susceptible to ganks they are to weak they get killed when engaged on and even if your jungler counter ganks you'll be to weak to win anything. Get caught with a cc and ganked and someone will die.

If they honestly want to buff cull they have to buff doran blades as well. They would have to rebuff the original doran blades to there original numbers and then buff cull so that it gives some attack speed or crit or something or some permanent stats. Becuase when they buff dorans they essentially increase the laning phase duration (since when dorans is strong people generally buy 2 dorans blades before any main items) which itself is a minor buff to cull and then with some direct buffs to cull it might actually be viable.

ShonjlFeb 7, 20161 votes

Dorans only passes cull's AD after you have over 100 ad?

You mean like any adc or offensive top laner starts with?

It isn't even uncommon to see ADCs or top laners start the game already at 90-100 ad if they actually are decent and have runes.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 8, 20161 votes

Whut... Maokai has the highest base AD in the game at 63 and even HE can't get to 100 AD even if he just took AD runes, and ADC's have average or below average base AD, no one has 100 AD at level 1.

elon wątrobaFeb 8, 20162 votes

I think, that 100 ad at 1 was possible with old fiora and new yi due to their steroids.

Spaceman5pffFeb 9, 20161 votes

Yep longsword fiora start got you like 104 ad at level 1

Spaceman5pffFeb 8, 20163 votes

The cull DOESN'T GIVE YOU HP like dorans making all-ins a HUGE problem for you.

khorneyFeb 8, 20161 votes

so your going to all in when someone is at full ?

Spaceman5pffFeb 8, 20163 votes

Alot of botlanes do that at level 2. Anything with Thresh , Alistar Blitzcrank Draven Leona Lucian Nautilus Twitch have a high possibility of a level 2 all in.

And since cull was mentioned for top lane: Irelia (with fervor) Jax Darius Poppy Olaf Renekton Riven Tryndamere Are top laners that will really try to punish you VERY early for having low health stats

LlaniteFeb 8, 20164 votes

Yes, it's meant to be a niche build against passive/stall lane. Can we move on already?

If you're going to engage in skirmishes, buy Doran, if you can avoid it, get cull.

darkmatchwaldoFeb 8, 20161 votes

You don't buy it on champions who all-in early. You buy it on champions with a heavy mid-game spike who just want to farm early.

Sypher The PoroFeb 8, 20161 votes

And then the people who do all-in early beat the shit out of you.

darkmatchwaldoFeb 8, 20161 votes

Those champions are going to all-in you early and beat you anyways.

Spaceman5pffFeb 9, 20161 votes

Not necessarily. It is a trade you have to make.

If you first pick kog with the intent of buying cull and then they take summoner 14 Leona + Draven then you are fucked.

Spaceman5pffFeb 9, 20161 votes

Yeah you don't quite grasp what I was getting at, and that is ok, not all of us passed 3rd grade reading comprehension.

I meant that the lack of HP stat makes you VERY VULNERABLE TO GETTING ALL INNED. Obviously I'm not taking cull to all in

ShonjlFeb 7, 20163 votes

Personally they could make Cull better by just reducing the amount you need to do before it pays off. I think since its meant to be a farming item it should be weaker than Doran's Blade which is meant to help last hit and be offensive in lane better. The issue is by the time you hit 100 CS laning phase is over and 300 gold isn't making a difference.

They either need to make the item pay off way more at its current CS or make it pay what it does now but make it payout at like 50cs.

100 CS is bare minimum 10-15 minutes into the game, that is more than enough time to make the item useless. At least if it was changed to say 50, that cuts it down to 5-8 which is more tolerable.

Til then its garbage, even for someone like GP which is the only one that actually can kinda use it.

Weasel KenseiFeb 8, 20162 votes

One of the best suggestions Iv seen is that when complete the passive, Cull disappears from your inventory, and you get its effects as a buff, aka its AD and life on hit effects. That was when it was 5 AD, and I think it would have been nice to make it go that way.

Bottom line is that D. Blade gives better combat stats, and more sustain. This makes kills more likely to happen and therefor makes it a superior item. Kills dont just give gold, them make enemies MISS gold by not being in lane.

My own suggestion for Cull is that if its a farming item then it needs to help farm a bit more. Make it the "easy" farming item and give it 20 bonus magic damage against minions (not jungle monsters) so those last hits are easier and the item becomes safer. As it stands a D.Blade marksman can initiate a trade on you, life steal up some more HP, then trade again zoning you off farm.

If the Cull user is zoned off farm, then cull is useless, a waste of money, a D.blade user could atleast gets some lifesteal sustain under the tower, but the cull user just needs to fight the tower for last hits and try not to get poked down more than they already have.

When I play support and I see the enemy ADC started Cull, I do everything I can to zone them off farm, cause each CS them miss puts them further down two holes: one cause they missed CS, and two cause it puts them completing Culls passive further out and makes their item efficiency worse longer. Even better, if I can poke them down, they wont recover as fast as a D. blade user will, in this snowball meta, Cull is a terrible starting item cause the lack of sustain may mean being forced out of lane and letting the enemy carry get just enough ahead that they build their snowball early.

I dont think its going too far to add 20 magic damage on hit to minions, and possibly and active that executes minions below 150 HP on hit for 5 seconds, with a 30 second cooldown. D.blade is an all-purpose laning item, it makes everything in lane easier: trades, farming, surviving, sustain; Cull isnt a farming item, its a hopeful investment making nothing about farming easier, it only gives back a bit of gold over what you put into it possibly after youve lost your lane.

In the snowball meta, it may have to give the same gold value, but only take 50 CS to get there, then people would probably get it. That would make it a must get possibly though, so meh, Cull, crap start item is crap.