Why League should be balanced for challenger/master

Arya Riven··66 votes·3,959 views

Imagine you join a chess League. You start playing and win some games. You get up to maybe their gold division. Now, you run into some complications competing. People in gold are utilizing their complex pieces like Knights and Bishops way better than you, while are more use to linear tactics like your Rook(Castles) and Pawn Cheese. On top of that, the chess from gold and up has timed moves.

Would it be fair, for you to demand that Knights and Bishops be removed, replaced with linear Rooks(Castles), and the timers to be removed? Just because you cannot think on your feet, make moves quickly and utilize complex pieces. Doesn't mean Master tier chess players should remove Knights and Bishops and stop castling, remove the timers and have a slow and linear game. Rather, you should have to learn to play chess better, faster and with more skill in order to compete with them.

This is a thoughtline I never understood. "We should balance the game for the majority." If you balance for a majority of people, who are low skill level, you set the bar low. If you start removing all of the complex mechanics from the game and fast moving twitchy champions, and replacing their kits with slow linear ones. You are shitting on top tier play, for the sake of what? Making sure low tier plays get a participation trophy?

If the game was balanced around the most middle ground in League, Silver, that means any player above silver has an imbalanced game, and in order to have a balanced game they have to play the game worse. If you balance and design the game around Challenger/Master tier play however, that means when the game is played at it's most optimum, it is balanced. And low tier players will eventually adapt and to the best of their ability try to mimic them, achieving 'balance' by getting better at the game.

Currently, League tries to balance for everyone, the problem with this is, it means it is balanced for nobody.

Yi is OP until gold then worthless above. Riven is worthless below gold then OP in Diamond-Challenger. This is no way to balance a game or a sport.

So before you condemn complex pieces, advanced strategies and timers. Think to yourself. "Maybe I just need to get better at chess. Instead of trying to tear master chess players down to the level of my Rook and Pawn cheese." Because the moment Riot balances the game AND designs for top tier play? Every champion becomes a viable pick when played to an optimum level.

144 Comments

Genocide Victim40 votes

The Queen is fuckin broken, needs nerf.

JavelinJoe3 votes

lol

Requiemsfire24 votes

I don't think the chess analogy really fits, in chess both sides are set up as equal with pieces that can only move a finite number of turns thus the game is inherently balanced between players simply because they have the same options as one another. In League each player gets to pick a single champion in a pool of 134 possible champions which may only by 1 team per game by 1 player leaving a countless combinations in each game so even if you picked your champion well it's practically impossible to have both teams on an absolutely even ground. Also all pieces are complex to use, simply knowing how to castle or move a knight is merely part of the rules. Hell any 6 year old can be taught the rules of chess. There's also lesser known rules like the En passant that the non chess players probably wouldn't know because it is extremely situational. If you removed the queen or knight from chess then you're not really balancing the game for even lower play at all, you're just removing aspects of it which is why I don't think this analogy makes sense.

Personally, I'm not a fan of how this thread acts like the mastery of chess revolves around particular pieces referring to skill caps as the very basic moves of chess. Besides I reckon you'd only tell the good from the bad chess players by how they use their pawns at the start of each game. Novice chess players tend to focus too much on their queen.

Ahristocats16 votes

i agree with few things

let's start with this

[{quoted}](name=Arya Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sVLKdEGI,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-01-30T05:06:43.058+0000)

. Riven is OP in Diamond-Challenger.

Riven is only played by riven mains, i never saw a SINGLE riven player without riven in their name+500k mastery points for real the amount of riven i meet that isn't played by a riven main is insanely low, simply because she's unplayable unless you main her

i tried to play her once and got headaches with the mechanics which makes her win rate high, but we shouldn't balance a champion around mains playing it especially when you can manage to beat riven even if she's played by a main i destroyed a riven main yesterday with renekton thanks to lethality build

[{quoted}](name=Arya Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sVLKdEGI,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-01-30T05:06:43.058+0000) and in order to have a balanced game they have to play the game worse

this is the argument i'm using everytime, and this is the argument nobody can do anything against but ignore because it's too logical The only argument i had against this was "people want to play for fun you shouldn't ask them to tryhard and learn the game"

i'm sorry but what? learning the game IS FUN, you have 0 fun by just going into a game and turn off your brain what is this?

Arya Riven4 votes

Hello Rubick. I do greatly enjoy many of your posts. Even if I disagree with some. My aggression towards you is normal, only with people I like ;D.

Ahristocats5 votes

you're aggressive toward me? i think i saw you being aggressive one time when i said renekton is garbage but i withdraw what i said i was wrong

you're disagreeing with riven not being op? that is the truth though i went to check the amount of riven i met in the past days and it only saw one: played by a summoner named "riven is shy" with over 300k mastery points she's played mostly by her mains

Keira Helsh13 votes

Well thought out reasoning, I enjoy the chess analogy, which is rather fitting for the subject matter.

ChaoticPinecone9 votes

The problem with the chess analogy is simple:

Chess is a game where both sides start with equal power and a perfectly mirrored board with almost perfectly symmetrical placement (both white and black face off mirrored, and the left/right sides for each are symmetrical outside of the Queen/King).


If you want a further explanation, lets take the example of the Knight the OP used. A newer or less strategic player might not utilize their Knights and might opt for a more linear style of play, but that doesnt mean that they are at an inherent disadvantage. Their disadvantage is their skill, knowledge, and quick analysis.

Sure you can take away Knights or Bishops in the game to balance for linear thinkers, but by the mirrored style of game, its the same advantage or disadvantage to both players. At the end of the day, its the more skilled player in the game who wins.

However, League's balance is inherently thrown off by the Champions. There is no perfectly equal matchup. And here lies the problem - a Challenger player might have trouble winning consistently with Yi, even if they are just as mechanically proficient as another Challenger player who plays Riven, because (as an example) A) people react faster to Yi at that level and B) they know how to animation cancel on Riven to push her to her potential limit. However, the same doesnt go in Bronze - a Bronze Yi player might have more success than a Bronze Riven, because A) people miss or mistime their CC more in Bronze and B) Bronze Rivens dont animation cancel as proficiently.

When you say things like, "They should balance around Challenger," does that mean they should buff Yi so he is better in Challenger but completely steamrolls the game in every tier below that?

LankPants8 votes

This is brilliant, basically how I've always thought about the game but conveyed far better than I ever could.

Arya Riven5 votes

I hope I captured your feelings well, and that they will get out to a broader audience so we all may have a game that is more fun.

4637 votes

" So before you condemn complex pieces, advanced strategies and timers. Think to yourself. "Maybe I just need to get better at chess. Instead of trying to tear master chess players down to the level of my Rook and Pawn cheese.""

Legit, this sums up the answers for most threads that get placed around here complaining about balance issues.

I mean your whole post is surrounded around that idea, but yeah.

WoonStruck3 votes

Lol should have seen the StarCraft 2 forums 1-2 years after it was released.

ACENOX2 votes

what happened?

WoonStruck3 votes

People actually complained about things like proxy rax being OP.

What that means is that a Terran player would build his Tier 1 (basic) combat unit production building outside of the opponent's base and spam Marines (weakest, although bread&butter, Terran unit) out of it.

Protoss was effectively immune to this due to how much stronger Zealots (weakest protoss)/Stalkers (bread&butter protoss) are than Marines.

Zerg could get Zerglings (weakest unit in the game, but 2 per production) out far, far, far earlier than anyone else could get units out, thus had no excuse. 6 pool "zerg rush" is a meme for a reason.


The only way you could get proxy rax cheesed is if you didn't scout, which is the simple act of sending a worker out of your base to look around (simple), find the enemy base spawn location (depending on map; simple), and get intel on the build order they're committing to so you can prepare and counter (somewhat complicated, but not required to counter proxy rax).


P.S. Proxy rax was effectively not viable. 100% of people would not be set back by it anywhere above silver. Most people would be able to kill the Marines and find/destroy the rax even if they did not scout it.

Arya Riven2 votes

I prefered Broodwar, is SC2 any good?

nm10107 votes

Are you by chance a speaker of some sort? You have quite a gift with the way that you phrase things.

Arya Riven7 votes

I am a writer. I am working on a novel. My English is not very good, but I try to cover it with convictions and ideals.

nm10107 votes

I would never be able to tell English wasn't your first language. Keep up with the posts, they are a refreshing read with many of the other low quality threads that clog up gameplay.

P.S. - Best of luck on the novel.

Arya Riven2 votes

If I ever get published I will let everyone know in the Misc boards. :) since I like a lot of people on the boards.

nm10103 votes

I will keep an eye out, both my fiance and I are fairly active readers. What is it about if you don't mind me asking?

Arya Riven3 votes

Fantasy, thriller, a bit of science fiction. :) It is about a girl who is possibly insane going on adventures that are partially real and partially not. And the line between realities blending.

FourVsFive7 votes

can not compare this to chess, as every one gets different pieces and some pieces way better then others, and this game has never been and never will be balanced, if it was we would see more then 40 champs outs of 130 played in the pro league.

JavelinJoe3 votes

Everything can be compared to chess in some way.

WoonStruck2 votes

Old Man and the Sea can be compared to everything.

Arya Riven3 votes

Chess is love, chess is life.

TehBromato5 votes

Yes, balancing around Master/Challenger is what they should be doing. However, they SHOULDN'T be balancing around PRO PLAY. Professional play is COMPLETELY different from SoloQ.

So your chess analogy is fine, but should you be balancing chess around chinese checkers?

Aptest4 votes

1

I think you are miss representing the situation by cherry picking your example. The actual question is, should pawn cheese be something that can be done to success in high Elo, given that it is then supported by knights and bishops?

If your answer is, "pawn cheese should not be viable in high elo" than the high elo game becomes "castle into knights and bishops." Essentially the game becomes more poor for high Elo because the range of viable options is smaller.

Whereas a better situation is that pawn cheese is viable in high elo, given that it is supported (in high elo) or that it supports knights/bishop play. This gives the high elo player more depth in the game because he can open castle into knight/bishop, or pawn cheese into knight/bishop, or knight/bishop into pawn cheese or any of the other options.

In your example, high elo is playing pure knight/bishop, whereas low elo is playing pure pawn cheese. The transition from low to high elo is simple to learn: understand knight/bishop, learn to answer pawn cheese, advance.

whereas the better situation is for low elo players to play simple pawn cheese AND crappy knight/bishop, and high elo players to play transitional/supported pawn cheese AND advanced knight/bishop. This gives both types of players a richer game.

2

Yi is OP until gold then worthless above. Riven is worthless below gold then OP in Diamond-Challenger. This is no way to balance a game or a sport.

The example that you are bringing is what results from "balanced for high elo". If riven is balanced for Diamond+, than what happens to all the power in lower elo? it depends on the player so it just goes away. Otherwise if riven is balanced for silver than diamond becomes riven VS yasuo 24/7.

or we can try to make riven balanced for all elos. which is super difficult, but it think the correct goal

3

you are bringing fast moving, twitchy champions as your example of high skill. how about macro play with champions who's strength is rotating around the map? how about situational play with champions specifically good in specific locations on the map?

If you are allowing "fast moving twitchy gameplay" to trump other strategies than you are not improving the game for high elo - you are removing options and making the game poorer.

As consequence, you are making being a high elo player simpler: learn riven and climb. So in a sense you are devaluing other skills that high elo players may have.

SzGamer2274 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arya Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sVLKdEGI,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-01-30T05:06:43.058+0000)

Currently, League tries to balance for everyone, the problem with this is, it means it is balanced for nobody.

No. This is incorrect. League of Legends is already balanced around high ELO. As far as I know, the game is balanced around Plat+ ranked games, which means data is taken from the top 7-10% of players in League. I would argue that the game could be balanced around Gold+ and still be fine, because the top 20-30% still consists of really good players (especially considering how much play time and experience the average ranked player has).

What you don't understand is just how absolutely tiny the Masters/Challengers player base is relative to how much data you need to balance the game. How can you expect Riot to gather a statistically significant amount of data (100+ games per champion) on 134 champions (of which the lowest play rate is 0.5% in Plat+) when there are only 900 accounts (accounts, not players) in Master/Challenger in a matter of days so that they can start making changes for the next patch? They can't. It would be completely absurd to try.

ADepressedLeona3 votes

I may disagree with you on Riven's design being healthy, but you do bring up nice posts.

+1

WoonStruck4 votes

Riven's not unhealthy, she's just not as hard as people want you to think.

She's actually really easy, but has a high skill ceiling due to canceling and knowledge of how to approach/engage fights; both are 100% required plat and above. However, you can still very, very easily find success on Riven gold and below even if you don't know much about her.

ADepressedLeona3 votes

Um, Riven is probably the hardest champion in the game to play.

WoonStruck4 votes

She's really not.

What makes you think that? Honestly.

She takes a lot of familiarity to perform successfully plat+, yeah.

Canceling isn't really mechanically intensive once you're used to it (which isn't hard, just takes getting used to), and is basically auto-pilot after a little practice.

Past that its match-up knowledge, which isn't any different than other champions.

Then knowledge of how to get into fights and flank...which a lot of champions have an even harder time with.


There are a lot of champions that take more practice to perform reasonably with first. Riven you can get away with no practice gold and below pretty reliably, just like any other champ.

ADepressedLeona5 votes

have you ever tried to play Riven without knowing how to animation cancel? She's such a clunky mess, it's like trying to run a machine without oiling it first.

Everything, down to her_** auto attacking**_, requires mechanical perfection. It's actually incredibly silly.

WoonStruck3 votes

Yes. Its really not that hard.

Everyone that's capable of climbing in gold or higher knows to move immediately after your auto damage goes off.

Past that, if you know how to use an auto-reset, animation canceling on Riven is actually pretty intuitive and automated.

Riven mains just like to pretend they have big dicks. Riven's not any more mechanically intensive than efficient kiting in general.

Timing, spacing, escaping, and punishing is where the real complexities of Riven come in.


Riven is a lot like Super Smash Bros: Melee.

Anyone can play it and do decently.

You can only compete at a high level if you know how to wave-dash. Its difficult if you don't practice, but it very easily becomes natural with a small amount of practice.

Its everything ELSE that makes Melee's pro scene so stagnant and hard to perform in.

Arya Riven5 votes

Do you even know what animation canceling is? No offense but you are talking about the Fast Combo. It isn't the primary cancel used however.

A primary animation cancel would be E>Flash>R>W>AA>Tiamat>Move>AA>Q>Move>AA>Q>R2>Move>AA>E>Q in rapid succession with perfect clicks in order to blow through all those abilities in about 1.5 seconds.

WoonStruck2 votes

Any combo that includes Flash and R is not going to be a 'primary combo'. Its going to be an 'optimal combo', though that may just be language familiarity differentiating those by semantics.


Also, you aren't even a true Riven main. Why are you trying to act like you know everything about Riven?

You main Shyvanna. Pretty sure most people know who you are, and if they haven't figured it out, they're pretty dense lol.

Arya Riven4 votes

It is primary. As you rarely hard engage without your ult on Riven. Unless it is pre-six with jungler help or against somebody you counter. You will notice when watching Adrian or Boxbox

"I don't have ulti, don't fight."

"Wait ten seconds for my ulti."

"I should have waited for my ulti."

20% additional AD is huge, it isn't even the execute, it is the AD, attack range and AoE.

I know a lot about the game in general. I'm one of those "those who cannot do, teach." type people. Probably because I have arthritis and cannot play videogames for long periods of time without my hands locking up. I study videogames, strategy, meta. But tend to zone in on specific champions based on my interest. I could tell you a lot about Shyvana, Riven, Teemo, Ashe, Kassadin and pre-rework Malzahar.

WoonStruck2 votes

Have you tried soaking your hands in warm water when it gets bad?

Playing with a damp, warm cloth on them when signs start to show?

If your hands get enflamed obviously use cold instead, but I'm assuming its just the stiffening because that's what you mentioned.

Arya Riven2 votes

No. Tbh I gave up trying to be pro at videogames after Starcraft and Mortal Kombat blew my wrists. Also a Karate injury did not help.

I am just around for analysis, discussion, and defending champions everyone hates.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Are you fairly certain this is the same Arya you're thinking of?

The one you're thinking of was off the boards for a little bit, and this one was still posting during that time frame.

WoonStruck2 votes

Played with the same players, even.

Arya Riven2 votes

Riven is easy to pick up but due to being weak when not used correctly has a 45% win rate. She is the hardest or tied as hardest to master. When mastered she has ALMOST the highest win rate.

ADepressedLeona4 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd-YPbzH0Os

I disagree with her being easy to pick up

Penns2 votes

Hes still getting fed.. soo..

ADepressedLeona2 votes

He explains how he's doing good. And it's not because he's any good at Riven

Also here's another example

https://youtu.be/PhPbce8ADXE

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

You know the biggest irony?

The boards constantly lambasts Riot for the esports side of things. "The LCS is boring. Same 10 champs every game. Why bother watching the LCS. DOTA has almost all the heroes picked" etc etc etc. But the moment you suggest balancing around the pro tier, suddenly "Ugh no fuck that no esports ruined this game". News Flash: BALANCING AROUND PRO PLAY MAKES IT MORE FUN TO WATCH.

But no. Everyone wants esports to have the same level of pick diversity in DOTA2 (Which is even harder than DOTA2 considering this game has about 30% more characters than DOTA2) yet demand RIot should make zero concessions to make this happen.

GayFluffyUnicorn4 votes

Where exactly does balancing around pro play make it more fun to watch? Did you hide in a cave the last year? Nearly every change for the sake of pro play made it even more passive and boring. If at all this game should be balanced around master/challenger soloQ

YoungFarmer2 votes

I agree, I just never thought they should balance it around pro play due to the fact that pro play is way different than 99.99% of league of legends. Lets face it Trundle is some how busted in the LCS. Same with Shen.

Arya Riven4 votes

Not proplay, Challenger play. Challenger is just the best players. The game is a soloQ game and should be balanced for Challenger SoloQ. Things like E-Sports should be a side effect of this.

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