Balance team has got to stop revolving its world around ADC.

LegendmakerGX·Aug 22, 2017·148 votes·4,906 views

I hate the fact that the way to win the game is "Protect the ADC" to win the game and get him fed" It's always 65-70% of the means to win is ADC being the main carry with their high damage/ Crit/Attack speed/Life steal the other 45% is the Ap mid but that's usually if the mid laner is playing a spam ability or one shot champion . Late game all champions would fall off at full build since they have all their items except for ADC full build you have to pray that you can catch him by a lucky CC or your team ADC takes out their top tank/jungler before theirs melt you down.

Every season when a new AD items come out for a certain meta like assassin that has a active or a passive ADC seems to always find a way to be able to take it and practically make it a ADC meta item all the time, why do they get the same passive or active as a close range AD champion they already have the luxury of being long range and having a support to protect them? They should never be able to get the same things at a close range AD champion especially when the item was BUILT for AD.

126 Comments

Unnamed FeederAug 23, 201746 votes

I'm really ok with adcs being able to shred tanks in the late game (which, unless the tank is full armor Malphite , is what they're supposed to do). What I'm NOT ok is that

ADCs are dealing too much damage in the mid game for how dominant their late game is.
Unless you play the Void Ninja or the Void Reaver, assassins deal delayed burst damage while adcs deal Instant sustained burst damage.

Just let assassins 1 shot adcs like they are supposed to. OR let crits hit tanks harder while not dealing such massive bursts to other squishies. OR rework their items item 3026 item 3139 item 3812 item 3072 item 3046 so that they must sacrifice a lot of damage for defense. OR leave their mid game as is and nerf their late game. Any of these changes will make a lot of people so much happier.

LegendmakerGXAug 23, 20178 votes

Problem is for me that even when you go full tank and ADC is at their final build item 3036 feels like it makes 35% of your armour useless and this is if we are lucky they didn't build attack speed items. Thank heaven we got grievous wound on item 3075 like lmao I understand we went tank build but we should still do damage to squishy ADC who build all damage item and are allowed to some how life steal over 300-400 hp ever auto on minion.

Unnamed FeederAug 23, 20173 votes

Fair enough. Unfortunately even with the new thornmail the only tank that can still force an adc to kill himself is Malphite , and even on him its hard.

Well yeah, I agree that for the amount of sustained burst damage they have they kill tanks too quickly. If they didn't kill squishies as fast or they actually got 1 shot by assassins and mages this would be fine. But right now with all the Riot favoritism towards adcs...oh well. They HAVE to lower armor penetration or lower adcs' damage towards squishies. Otherwise this game will be (as it is right now) which team's adc can shred the other team's tanks first.

Garlic ButterAug 23, 20178 votes

Rammus can do it as well and much easier.

statelesskillerAug 23, 20173 votes

the go kill yourself special right there if your a adc

aspects1Aug 23, 20171 votes

whos the void ninja? kassadin? chogath?

Unnamed FeederAug 23, 20175 votes

Void Ninja = Kassadin

Void Reaver = Khazix

Tarquin96Aug 23, 20174 votes

isnt kassadin a void anti void ninja?

MigYalleAug 23, 20175 votes

[deleted]

JamenawerlAug 23, 20171 votes

More like anti-void, void warlock.

ThefrostyvikingAug 23, 20171 votes

Warlocks don't jump into people's faces to stab them.

Faceroll TacticsAug 23, 20171 votes

Never played destiny then?

ThefrostyvikingAug 23, 20171 votes

Destiny breaks all common sense by taking a name belonging to a typical fantasy dark mage and slapping it on a sci fi space tropper that doesn't even use dark magic!

The description is even arcane magic which is typical for a standard wizard rather than a dark one, and i didn't see anything about curses or debuffs either.

Long story short, it's a half assed guy with a gun wanting to be a wizard but feeling edgy thus wearing a dark cloak and calling themselves warlocks instead.

Malzahar is closer, minion summons, dark curses, debuffs and such.

Replace his ultimate with some aoe curse/debuff and he nails it perfectly.

JamenawerlAug 24, 20171 votes

A warlock isnt just a dark, edgy mage with debuffs. The defining trait of a warlock is that he makes a bargain with a powerful/otherworldly entity to gain magical power (pretty much what Kassadin did btw). Therefore, they can spend their time improving their physical capabilities instead of learning magic (have you seen Kassadin constitution?). So I wouldnt be particularly impressed if a warlock used his borrowed powers to teleport in front of some squishy fuck who has spent his life reading books and stab him to death.

Do you have in mind the image of the typical satanic/cthulhu cultist with a long cloak and a dagger? Well, thats the warlock prototype for you. Since these otherworldly beings are more often than not evil or even demonic, warlocks are usually associated with dark magics (curses, summons, etc.), but that doesnt necessarily have to be the case. Warlocks can also use arcane magic, void magic and whatnot, depending on the nature of their powers (i.e. the being with whom they have a deal). In WoW for example, a game that greatly popularized the class, their powers are closely related to demons.

Although I can give you that class descriptions often vary between settings (mostly because they have degenerated to make things simpler than they were in origin, you just have to look at LoL to understand what im talking about), I personally consider D&D and Tolkiens work "canon", as they started the whole fantasy stuff.

TL;DR: Warlocks arent dark mages nor wizards.

ThefrostyvikingAug 24, 20171 votes

There are a few historical types of warlocks, the first was the dark occult mage that i find the most common one-

Dark rituals and offerings to evil things for power, men who turned from a good path defying all good for their ambition and greed. They used arcane arts to some degree but often darker or corrupted versions.

Curses and slow acting stuff along with rituals was their forte, along with a touch of supposed devil and evil spirit worship.

Second was the scottish interpretation that then spread and became surprisingly common, in their meaning warlock was just a male witch.

Not quite sure what the exact difference is between the witch and warlock is though, might be why the scottish decided it was basically the same.

The third and most uncommon i know historically was that warlock was used as a translation of a old nordic word that essentially meant "caller of spirits" which could be both really good and really bad.

Depending on which spirits they called.

It could also be a tone lighter and mean something like a shaman, due to the language not being preserved properly there are a lot of things that have a unknown specific usage.

And in tolkiens stories, weren't warlocks exactly dark mages`? Rather, his interpetation of the word seems to be the scottish one, men turned to the "super dark lord" and offered things to his glory for power in the dark arts.

Women too.

I mean, the witch king was only called so because it had a nicer ring than warlock king, i dare think it was the same stuff in his eyes.

JamenawerlAug 24, 20171 votes

The thing is, witchcraft was usually associated with the devil, thats why it was considered heresy and witches were prosecuted. And if casting a fireball on someone was as easy as saying "I cursed thee" there would probably be more tales of witches, well, casting fireballs on random villagers.

You could say that void powers are evil and dark anyway. Kassadin shares his type of magic with Malzahar, he just uses it differently.

ThefrostyvikingAug 24, 20171 votes

The power might be the same but i kinda think the difference is essentially the same as a fantasy priest vs a paladin.

Both tend to use some kinda holy light with prayers, blessings and some heals, maybe barriers.

Difference is that paladin brings a weapon into the mix and sometimes a shield too, tools that he channels his power through to bash some faith into all the bad things in the world.

Meanwhile priest will just go around driving the people around them crazy with incessant prayers and moral speeches but they´re still liked for healing and supportive magic provided.

A priest bashing someone to death with a mace or such is only seen in warhammer and the might and magic universes that i am aware of.

Priests there are no joke, either you worship or you get some sense knocked into your head by means of hammer to the skull. '

JamenawerlAug 24, 20171 votes

A lot of fantasy games including D&D have clerics wearing heavy armor and bludgeoing weapons (so they dont shed blood, merciful way of killing, yadayada). And they do for the same reason Warlocks can stab you in the face: they dont have to spend as much time as other spellcasters learning magic. Warlocks do a pact with an otherworldly being (usually demons, but not necessarily so), clerics pray for miracles to their god. Disturbingly similar if you think about it lol.

The biggest difference you will find between clerics and paladins in a lot of old rpgs is the fanatism and bigotry of the later ones. I think one of the main reasons clerics have lost their melee power in more recent settings is balance, since the lore has lost a lot importance in favour of the gameplay, specially in videogames.

Pre-void Kassadin would have been a fighter, he didnt know any spells yet, but already possessed a good constitution which made him able to travel the desert and being one of the few to reach Icathia alive. Once there, the void granted him his powers and thus he became a warlock.

ThefrostyvikingAug 24, 20171 votes

But he doesn't use spells that a warlock would use is the crux of the issue.

His magic is much more in line of what you´d expect from a spellblade or a magically trained assassin....with a void theme.

No rituals, no preparation, no praying or such, just "activate" his magic and go swinging it around slashing and dashing with some occasional blasting and void hopping.

As long as he does not use curse magic, ritual magic or summons i refuse to call him a warlock :<

And on a second note, swain is also a good fit.

ThefrostyvikingAug 23, 20173 votes

There are really only 3 really, really problematic marksmen items now i think, as someone who plays them a lot.

item 3812 item 3094 item 3087 are all rather big in causing marksmen to be able to do thing's they shouldn't be able to do.

And assassins will wreck nearly any marksman with even slight lacking peel, exceptions to this are Vayne and to a lesser extent, Draven .

And don't go blaming marksmen for how dang OP the enhancer supports are too!. Altho censer is getting nerfed at last.

Faceroll TacticsAug 23, 20172 votes

Censor nerfs are hilariously stupid.

10% attack speed loss is approximately 100 damage lost every 50 auto attacks on the fast shooting carries (jinx, twitch, kog'maw, and tristana)

Insignificant

ThefrostyvikingAug 23, 20173 votes

Are you deliberetly ignoring that ardent censer at the point when it gave 30% attackspeed was giving the same as an entire item's worth of attackspeed? This was a huge issue that dealt with way too late.

10%, is a lot for a early/midgame marksman, at all but the later stages of the game, and you can even consider it to be AOE in some cases, in those you can instead of saying "the marksman lost 10%" say that "enemy team lost "10-30%" depening on how many users of the item the team had.

With only 3 users at the current state the supports just need to use a single AOE heal or shield and the enemy team gains 60% attack speed in total if they have 3 users.

Its not a little on the grand scale of things.

Altho i´d prefer myself if they gave the item a lvl scaling, 20% is still immensely powerful to any marksman except Jhin given how quickly the supports can get it.

MoonToonExAug 23, 201716 votes

I actually would love for late game to be "even" for all roles. A late game tank that's full build shouldn't melt the second a full build Twitch/ Trist/ Jinx turns on them.

ModKnightsKemplarAug 23, 20176 votes

This is a sentiment that I see a lot (all classes equal, especially referring to duels), but I don't understand it at all.

In a class-based game, every class has to have a role. Naturally, strengths and weaknesses emerge from that situation, and a game is defined by the way they decide to balance around those niches.

It would be almost impossible to create a ranged AD class that didn't become a late-game damage monster. By stacking attack speed and damage, and because that damage applies to autos, they are going to be the obvious late game sustained damage threat when balanced. I don't see a sensible way around that. The way that class interacts with other classes creates the deep and varied gameplay that we all love.

It's true that League has jumped in with both feet on that by limiting their defensive options and giving adcs crit, which makes them scale even harder. edits When adcs become overpowered, it's because they break the delicate balance between risk and reward that is set up by the scaling damage on a squishy target end edits. But they aren't going to reverse that; it wouldn't even be the same game anymore if they did.

Every single champion in the game is balanced around that paradigm. No exceptions. If anything, Jugger-Maw comps have shown us that allowing multiple shields (with no decay penalty for that) and heals on a single champion from allies could present a game-health problem. I would rather they address it from that angle than just making adcs weaker.

The late-game carry is a staple of MOBAs, and in LoL, the adc is often the strongest late-game champ on a squad (in terms of damage output, at least). That's always been true and changing that would be a balance nightmare MUCH worse than anything we have seen before.

No offense, but when you want to alter something that fundamental to LoL, that's the point at which I start asking you which other MOBAs you've tried. There is a point where the disruption to balance is too great to consider a change. The late-game scaled adc is just one of LoL's things. There are games out there that provide what you describe, but I don't think LoL is ever going to be that game.

SpoofghoulAug 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

It would be almost impossible to create a ranged AD class that didn't become a late-game damage monster. By stacking attack speed and damage, and because that damage applies to autos, they are going to be the obvious late game sustained damage threat when balanced. I don't see a sensible way around that. The way that class interacts with other classes creates the deep and varied gameplay that we all love.

Except It's totally changeable

Perhaps marksmen deal too much damage in the late game

Crits for example do not necessarily have to be tied to damage alone, they could deal way less damage and be balanced around applying debuffs or doing certain things

For example there could be crit items which granted special crit effects like penetrating crits which would make them ignore some of your targets armor

We already have items similar like this right now with IE and ER

If there are no more last whisper's but instead we had an item which made crits ignore a decent chunk of bonus armor then that would solidify the adc class way more as the class to turn to for dealing with heavily armored enemies

It would enhance that particular strength of the adc class in a way that scales up into the late game naturally as you would have more critical strike chance

Critical strikes would not need to deal 1500 damage, not saying that this should never be possible just that it would need a more dedicated build which makes you lose power elsewhere to gain more general power in dealing with everyone, for example that penetrating crit item would not give a ton of crit itself nor a ton of AD and so you can't have such high damage crits vs everyone and tanks but ratehr you would need to make more meaningful decision's

Critical strikes could do all sorts of things, when you think about it like this, they could ground people, or debuff them with something similar to the expose weakness mastery. Or perhaps convert some of your damage to magic damage

This ways ADC can contribute with a certain strength like having access to tank busting to a degree i still think this should also be stornger or weaker for certain champions to create more diversity, not just for adc's but for all classes. And then adc's now have a way to enable allies too and supply the team with additional utility and more adaptability With less generalist late game power they can gain some power in the mid game

By taking away some of the means of tankbusting from other classes and making the adc's weaker as far as raw damage is concerned it would still leave them highly useful to your team as a means for dealing with high defense enemies because that particular strength became more niche and is mostly found in that class

Essentially you trim power not just from the adc but also from some of the other classes without taking away from their strengths

And it is really simple to do, essentially you take the main strength of a class or group of champions and reduce that particular strength everywhere else while trimming some general power from the class you are re balancing.

It's a really solid way to change the power of a class without making them weak or obsolete

So NawAug 23, 20172 votes

I'm fine with Late game ADCs Killing Late game tanks

But the issue is just how quickly a late game ADC kills a late game tank, it should be a late game tank shouldn't be able to kill a carry solo and the carry should be able to kill the tank Eventually, as in longer then 3 seconds

Zero Skill TankAug 23, 20173 votes

If all clases were equal late game, they would also all need equal strenght early.

You don't want marksmen to be able to solo lane freely.

MoonToonExAug 24, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=dont stop Niisan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sUeEEl9g,comment-id=00090001,timestamp=2017-08-23T16:36:07.420+0000)

If all clases were equal late game, they would also all need equal strenght early.

You don't want marksmen to be able to solo lane freely.

If ADCs were balanced around being solo laners that didn't shit on everyone late game then that would change a whole list of stuff. 1- Their power would be more in line with mages, they would scale better with levels/ skills and have better means for being solo. Much like how AD casters can lane and need to use mana to deal dmg. 2- The way they are now makes it so that they HAVE to have a baby sitter ... meaning you HAVE to have a support. If they are balanced and designed around being capable laners with balanced dmg late game then supports can be reworked too cause they're forced to be shitty laners because they have to be baby sitters that get no gold. If you make them too strong without gold then WITH gold they will be beast ... which is why it's not very common for them to be even ok at laning.

Over all they would have to make LoL take even more from HoTS. That game is designed to make comps more flexable and playing support in that game is actually damn fun because you're not a limp noodle babysitting some promised child that your team needs to protect.

Zero Skill TankAug 24, 20173 votes

You don't get it.

You don't want to lane against marksmen who is as strong as you early and point-and-clicks you to death.

Your idea means introducing 19 Teemo's to the game, only ones with even more oppresive laning phase because other marksmen don't have shrooms to keep them safe.

MoonToonExAug 24, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=dont stop Niisan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sUeEEl9g,comment-id=0009000100000000,timestamp=2017-08-24T05:24:20.626+0000)

You don't get it.

You don't want to lane against marksmen who is as strong as you early and point-and-clicks you to death.

Your idea means introducing 19 Teemo's to the game, only ones with even more oppresive laning phase because other marksmen don't have shrooms to keep them safe.

No, you don't get what I'm saying.

"they would scale better with levels/ skills and have better means for being solo. Much like how AD casters can lane and need to use mana to deal dmg."

Lower the dmg they can do from AAs, rework them to rely more on skills to deal dmg. Make them, effectively, AD casters. So instead of having a Jinx right click CRIT you to death as she life steals through your dmg you'd have champs that are something more like GP or Jayce, an AD champ that doesn't rely (almost) exclusively on AAs to deal AD dmg unlike many ADC. There's already shades of this in Varus who is seen as an AD Caster which is why Varus mid is a thing sometimes. Same with EZ.

What I put fort as a solution would fundamentally change how MANY ADCs work in favor of making them more independent AD laners who must cast skills to out put their dmg instead of just AAs. AAs alone wouldn't be effective late game if they want to out put the most DMG they can. It would also free up supports to gain independent power and lane solo if they wanted.

This is pretty much how HoTS fixed many LoL problems. But it may not be able to work in LoL as it is now because last hitting is a thing as well as solo exp.

SohleksAug 23, 201713 votes

Don't forget when an ADC takes defensive ish item they can maximally extend every ounce of resist and life it has because they stay at safe ranges and get peel and lifesteal meanwhile bruisers with the same item are expected to dive and get focused and take aoe damage.

DragonSheaAug 23, 201710 votes

The moment they started to call Marksman "ADC's" was the day that they became Riots like pet bitch.

Sp33d Zer0Aug 23, 201717 votes

You do know that ADC was around before Marksman right? And that riot reclassified them because they didn't like the term ADC?

This is a comedy video that was released when the name change happened, and people still refer to the role as ADC because it just stuck so much in the roots of early seasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqakQqxkcME

FrightningAug 23, 201710 votes

Useful little stat to remember: The season 6 changes to marksman upper their damage to champs by about 30% on average over previous season(s).

This, while lifesteal remains just as strong as before and it's absolutely no surprise that marksman are the dominant archetype in the game. Was destined to happen when riot didn't give the other classes comparable increases in power (or just nerf ADCs/their items; anyone else notice that zeal items are only 2600g? Whereas things like IE and ER are 3400g, and the AD+lifesteal items are even more expensive, 3500g for DD, 3700 for BT.) Marksmen with full builds are just as strong now as they were in season 1, without all the downsides and lack of early and mid game power that they had back then (and with mobility too).

Emelie CauchemarAug 23, 20174 votes

This is the first time ADCS have been relevant this entire season, and it's not even because of ADCS. It's actually because of a single item lol.

I'll tell you here and now once Ardent is nerfed most adcs will cease to exist.

AhristocatsAug 23, 201719 votes

[{quoted}](name=Emelie Cauchemar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sUeEEl9g,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-08-23T06:05:23.773+0000)

I'll tell you here and now once Ardent is nerfed most adcs will cease to exist.

ur so good at doing jokes

10/10

Emelie CauchemarAug 23, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sUeEEl9g,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2017-08-23T06:11:28.722+0000)

ur so good at doing jokes

10/10

the only adcs that have even been used up until recently are

Jhin Varus MissFortune who are pretty much .

The only real competition to that was Draven Tristana .

This brought rise to Twitch Whose really good at killing the other 3 outside of lane phase.

But the thing is is that most of those champions save for twitch were regularly being dumpstered by bruisers/top laners/tanks.

You're currently cheesing as one of the bruisers in bot lane. IF bruisers were as shit as you swear up and down they are you wouldn't even be able to do what you're doing.

AhristocatsAug 23, 201715 votes

you sir made my day XD

[{quoted}](name=Emelie Cauchemar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sUeEEl9g,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2017-08-23T06:51:18.575+0000)

the only adcs that have even been used up until recently are

[{quoted}](name=Emelie Cauchemar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sUeEEl9g,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2017-08-23T06:51:18.575+0000)

who are pretty much .

So? they are adcs, they were ruining other adcs's game because they were too strong, other adcs weren't weak

[{quoted}](name=Emelie Cauchemar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sUeEEl9g,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2017-08-23T06:51:18.575+0000)

The only real competition to that was .

and cait and kalista

LUL

[{quoted}](name=Emelie Cauchemar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sUeEEl9g,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2017-08-23T06:51:18.575+0000)

This brought rise to Whose really good at killing the other 3 outside of lane phase.

doesn't change anything at all

[{quoted}](name=Emelie Cauchemar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sUeEEl9g,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2017-08-23T06:51:18.575+0000)

You're currently cheesing as one of the bruisers in bot lane. IF bruisers were as shit as you swear up and down they are you wouldn't even be able to do what you're doing.

this is what made my day

you sir have no fcking clue what you're talking about

morde isn't cheese, morde was designed in 2015 to be an adc by riot, and i use him, and other morde mains also play him adc

begone before i start to insult people

Emelie CauchemarAug 23, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sUeEEl9g,comment-id=000a000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-23T07:15:04.357+0000)

you sir made my day XD

So? they are adcs, they were ruining other adcs's game because they were too strong, other adcs weren't weak

and cait and kalista

LUL

doesn't change anything at all

this is what made my day

you sir have no fcking clue what you're talking about

morde isn't cheese, morde was designed in 2015 to be an adc by riot, and i use him, and other morde mains also play him adc

begone before i start to insult people

IF you're using the ADC phrase to be extremely broad then I honestly don't know why you're actually complaining since that's 50% of the roster

Jhin/Mf/Varus are all considered Attack Damage Casters similar to Pantheon more than actual "marksmen." Just like Twitch is more of an assassin than he is a marksmen. The only ones really considered true marksmen out of the actual group is Tristana and Kalista. Speaking of, you mentioned Kalista. She's actually the by-product of the previous meta specifically designed to stomp immobile lane bullies and tanks that were nonstop invalidating bot lane.

Morde isn't really an attack damage carry/Auto Attack Carry. In fact he barely even autos except to three shot something. He's still pretty much an AP bruiser.

Darn. We better go gut 50% of the champion roster so that only tanks and AP champs are playable.

AhristocatsAug 23, 201710 votes

[{quoted}](name=Emelie Cauchemar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sUeEEl9g,comment-id=000a0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-23T07:43:31.945+0000)

IF you're using the ADC phrase to be extremely broad then I honestly don't know why you're actually complaining since that's 50% of the roster

[{quoted}](name=Emelie Cauchemar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sUeEEl9g,comment-id=000a0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-23T07:43:31.945+0000)

Jhin/Mf/Varus are all considered Attack Damage Casters similar to Pantheon more than actual

caster or not they fit to the marksmen definition by definition they are marksmen which means marksmen weren't weak

they were the strongest marksmen during that meta, didn't see pantheon being played botlane

[{quoted}](name=Emelie Cauchemar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sUeEEl9g,comment-id=000a0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-23T07:43:31.945+0000)

"marksmen." Just like Twitch is more of an assassin than he is a marksmen. The only ones really considered true marksmen out of the actual group is Tristana and Kalista. Speaking of, you mentioned Kalista. She's actually the by-product of the previous meta specifically designed to stomp immobile lane bullies and tanks that were nonstop invalidating bot lane.

kalista is viable everywhere everytime, she's overloaded and counters everyone, her ult alone is broken

Twitch no matter if he's an assassin or not, is ranged, and fits to the definition of marskman sir, you have to

learn the game

[{quoted}](name=Emelie Cauchemar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sUeEEl9g,comment-id=000a0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-23T07:43:31.945+0000)

Morde isn't really an attack damage carry/Auto Attack Carry. In fact he barely even autos except to three shot something. He's still pretty much an AP bruiser.

DOESNT MATTER he was reworked for the only reason to go bot, he was cornered and forced to go bot

HE is not a cheese pick he does what he was intended to do, and for some reasons this surprises you

morde going bot, does not mean marksmen are not the meta

Garlic ButterAug 23, 20171 votes

this is innaccurate logic.

Please do not forget Gang Plank is a marksmen(he is actually tagged such), Tryndamere, Fiora, and Yasuo are also marksmen by your logic. Though properly they are Attack Damage Carries (marksmen does NOT = carry)

Missfortune, Varus are NOT considered marksmen, they are duelist and on hit champions respectively (varus is in that narrow niche that kog'maw also sits in), full "marksmen" builds on them a) doesn't make a lot of sense and b) is an "alternative" build like assassincrit Garen or full AP zac, etc.

Varus and MF are both hybrid casters(tho mf was improved to be more physical damage caster recently thankfully) much like corki and ezreal and can be built similarly. Them building "marksmen" is like ezreal building marksmen, you don't bring mf and varus to a match for the same reason you would bring vayne, or jhin (both assassins), or Ashe/Cait/Jinx (true marksmen).

AhristocatsAug 23, 20178 votes

[{quoted}](name=Garlic Butter,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sUeEEl9g,comment-id=000a000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-23T11:10:46.169+0000)

Please do not forget Gang Plank is a marksmen(he is actually tagged such),

RazörAug 23, 20172 votes

[deleted]

Q RenAug 23, 201711 votes

lol Janna Lulu Soraka

ParoeAug 23, 20172 votes

@thread Syndra is a support secondary iirc. Taliyah is a good harass support. Orianna is a fantastic support.

Crit needs to be removed and attack speed needs to be buffed on zeal items.

Marksman needed crit in S2, they dont need crit anymore. Marksman itemization is heads and shoulders above everyone elses now, and AD nerfs to assassin items arent helping that.

My HeartshakerAug 23, 20177 votes

Not sure what world you're living in but I see none of those played as support.

Garlic ButterAug 23, 20171 votes

Oriana is actually taged as a support (she also has quite a few support abilities, including a powerful armor and mr buff + shield that also deals damage castable on any ally). And both Syndra and Taliyah have support style kits (enchanter/disruptors), very high base damages and medium scaling on AP (just like most supports), loads of CC and they both have good back up or main wave clear (something most supports do not have).

I've not seen syndra support too often despite how outrageously strong it is, but i see taliyah and oriana constantly.

My HeartshakerAug 23, 20176 votes

Orianna support does not work. While I can see the support aspect in her E (shield), it's a far too weak shield unless you max it first, which then means your Q and W do pitiful amounts of damage, you run out of mana faster and you essentially become a shield bot.

Syndra and Taliyah do not have support style kits... their entire kits consists of damage, waveclear or CC. There's no way you would play either of those when better mages exist in the botlane (zyra, brand).

And honestly, I have never seen any of those three being played as support in my ranked games. They're far more suited to be a midlane mage than a support.

AirKingNeoAug 23, 20171 votes

Crit needs to be removed and attack speed needs to be buffed on zeal items.

Tanks would be uber broken.

ParoeAug 25, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Tanks would be uber broken.

No? item 3035 is still a thing. Removing crit would mean that you can tone back health on items by 100 on pretty much everything that isnt primarily health.

By buffing attack speed marksman would get overall higher ASP and more AD; their niche would remain the same (objective control and siege) without giving them DOUBLE multiplicative stats. because ASP is a multiplier and crit is a multiplier.