Mordekaiser's inherent Kit problems; VGU talk and more

Malicious Metal··80 votes·5,188 views

So, with Mordekaiser having been hit with the Rylais changes and me really questioning why I should even keep maining him I thought to myself why exactly Mordekaiser's even in this current balance limbo. He's on Riot's naughty list and they're extremely hesitant to buff him, even when he's really becoming frustrating to play as (he's always been frustrating to play against anyways). He's almost reached the spot where both parties are NOT going to be enjoying themselves so that got my thinking; What are the things that NEED to go when Morde gets his VGU?

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/4.10.7/img/passive/Mordekaiser_IronMan.png Iron Man http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/4.10.7/img/passive/Mordekaiser_IronMan.png This comes to mind when I think about what makes Mordekaiser such a pain to balance. It's a completely broken design by default and on any other champ it'd be extremely opressive. Iron Man is THE feast of famine passive. It scales on DAMAGE output and gives you DURABILITY based on the damage you deal. If you get fed on Mordekaiser there's nothing the enemy can do to stop you as you're going to completely destroy them without them being able to retaliate. It also makes trading against Mordekaiser very binary in lane. Either you have the DPS required to breach his shield or he'll just shrug it off like a bad case of fleas. It's broken by design and keeps him in this awful spot where he's not allowed to be buffed. The sad thing about it is that it's heavily linked to his THEME and IDENTITY. The meme "Mordekaiser es numero uno; always shield, never die" comes to mind and it certainly shows that a lot of people seem attached to this, which makes this even more tragic. It's theme of battle-bound durability really fits with the whole Juggernaut shtick but its current form is broken. There are other ways to fix this but I'll come to that in a minute.

Siphon of destruction http://cdn.garenanow.com/webupdate/live/lolphweb/news/2015%20June/23/VFX%20in%20League%20of%20Legends/Mordekaiser.jpg This skill was what earned Morde the spot in the trash in the first place. It's un-intuitive poke and a spell that has little to no decision making involved. Is it off CD? Spam it. It's INSTANT AoE RANGED harass that was nerfed into the pitiful state it is now. It could be so much more but it has become this part of his kit that's so unnoticable and boring that it could be replaced by anything. That's the problem of most of his skills anyways, they're binary, and binary is not a bad thing for a Juggernaut, but they have little to no decision making involved except his Harvester of Sorrow, which ironically was what made him pick or ban in a duo lane. Mordekaiser needs more intuitive gameplay patterns especially in his base line kit in order to offer him and the enemy ways to outplay and truly raise the skill ceiling on both ends of that matchup

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/5.4.1/img/spell/MordekaiserChildrenOfTheGrave.png Children of the Grave http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/5.4.1/img/spell/MordekaiserChildrenOfTheGrave.png

Mordekaiser's ULTIMATE ability and arguably the coolest thing about his kit. It's a curse that allows you to rip the soul out of a dead champion's body and make them follow your every whim, or rather it should if the AI wasn't mentally retarded.

It provides Mordekaiser's high point when he gets HUGE damage and durability scalings due to the Ghost not only BUFFING Morde but also Morde giving a percentage of his stats to the ghost. That 12/0 vayne on the enemy team? NP, it's a 12/1 Vayne on YOUR team now. His Ultimate scales with how hard you're losing similar to old Veigar's R It's efficiency is non-linear unlike other summons and completely relies on how well the enemy is doing.

Not only this but it does a lot of things at once. It gives: -Burst -Heal -Shield -Potentially a huge DPS increase -Potentially a huge tank steroid -A sixth man on your team

What the problem with it is that it's POTENTIAL power and unlike a healthy champion's kit it's not binary, meaning unless you get the maximum out of it it'll either suck or be OPPRESSIVE as hell. Just like Iron Man it's one of his core thematic elements, which makes Mordekaiser in general a real pain to balance and work on as a Riot designer.

So, how could we fix this?

Honestly?

It's actually rather simple: -Give Mordekaiser more ways to outplay, make him less binary -Make him less feast or famine -Make his scaling binary and depending on HIS stats and not other variables -Reduce the sheer lack of meaningful counterplay

Concrete things?

Ultimate

Children of the grave's damage, HP and other stats should be dictated by MORDE himself. It should be similar to Daisy, meaning that Ability Ranks and Mordekaiser's own stats add to the clone's efficiency, making it a binary scaling that does not rely on the enemy being fed. The way he gets the clone can be changed for all I care but seeing that he has to retain this in some way I feel this is the way to go to balance the Thrall he summons

Battle-bound durability Probably THE Juggernaut thing. Illaoi got her tentacles, darius his Q, every Juggernaut has a way to keep kickin' in the midst of battle and fulfill the role of being a damage threat, scaling well in the midst of battle and surviving a lot of punishment.

But how could we do this?

Well, I had ONE concrete ability change in mind that would build on one of my PERSONAL favorite things about Mordekaiser: The Shrapnel shield, iron Man and his sheer in-fight sustain

Iron Man; Reworked W

Active; Mordekaiser shields himself with necromantic energies and unleashes a torrent of malice and metal around himself, the Shroud damaging surrounding enemies. (Shield strength based on %HP)

(Reactivation; Implodes the metal storm to drain the surrounding area of life, healing Mordekaiser for a percentage(?) of his max HP for every unit struck, half as efficient against minions??)

I wanted to move Iron man to an active, giving Mordekaiser more control over how he should use his survival tool, giving him a way to reflect incoming damage conscuiously and giving him a way to survive even outside combat.

The cooldown would be somewhere around 20-15 seconds but here comes the kicker: Every time Mordekaiser is damaged by an enemy champion or monster the Cooldown of Iron Man is reduced by (1-1.25-1.5-1.75-2) seconds, half as effective against monsters

This would give Mordekaiser a tool to keep fighting in the midst of battle, his survivability still bound to actual brawling and not to simply dealing damage. But then again, I'm not a Rioter so this may be too freaky to even implement.

The fact remains; Mordekaiser has inherent design flaws that keep him from ever being allowed to be STRONG.

His Kit is a balancing nightmare and he lacks all the aspects of a healthy Kit, lacking Windows of Power, binary scaling and ways to outplay opponents or be outplayed.

I just hope Riot finally comes around to give Mordekaiser the VGU he so DESPERATELY needs, seeing that his core THEMES and IDENTITY are some of the coolest things about him as a character and once expanded upon; Oh baby; he'd be one of the most awesome Champions in the LoL roster.

Who wouldn't want to play an updated Murder Emperor? A Metal tyrant who rips the souls out of his enemies and goes to town with necromantic powers, ensorcelled mace, his sheer presence of malice and the will to DOMINATE and CONQUER! He's got the potential to be bloody awesome! http://www2.pic-upload.de/img/32272229/mordewallpaper.jpg

77 Comments

Rebonack26 votes

Hey Malicious, great topic.

I wanted to pipe in as a Kog main who has often found myself on the receiving end of Mord's Ult, especially having lived through the older incarnations of Mord down through the Seasons.

When he blasts you with that thing, you're either skunked or you're not. Either you manage to escape with your life and Mord gets a cooldown for his trouble, or you eat it and he gets his ghost. I think that, perhaps, instead of just being this giant nuke, why not focus it even MORE on his soul-stealing aspect while giving it a bit more interaction on the receiving end?

R - Children of the Grave: Mord rips out part of the soul of his target, dealing magic damage to them and creating a phantasm of the target under his control. The phantasm gains (percentage) increased damage against its twin. If the victim of Children of the Grave is killed before the duration expires, the phantasm is empowered, greatly increasing its lifespan and granting bonus stats to both Mord and the phantasm.

So Mord always gets a ghost to play with and if he kills the ghost's twin, then the ghost gobbles up the rest of the twin's soul and Mord gets his full-powered ghost to cause some havoc with. I think this would resonate really well with Mord's character while giving the target more room to play around it AND giving it more of a sustained damage pattern rather than being just a giant nuke if it doesn't kill the target.

Thoughts?

Malicious Metal12 votes

This is something that went through my mind on numerous occasions but your elaboration rally sold me on this idea.

Currently Morde either wins or loses, getting either a powerful clone or he...doesn't. It's hit or miss and him literally gripping a piece of your soul and ripping it out could give him more ways to express his strengths and soul-stealing aspects.

It would also provide benefits without having to outright murder someone. How it currently stands his ult is a "win-more" ability, if your team manages to draw fist blood you just wipe them all out, which only increases the amount of binary aspects in his kit.

So yeah, it's an idea worth exploring as it would also be extremely badass and fit thematically.

Also, how's Koggles currently faring? haven't seen one in ages D:

Rebonack4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sR8InejI,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-12-11T00:52:29.384+0000)

This is something that went through my mind on numerous occasions but your elaboration rally sold me on this idea.

Glad you liked it! I've always been a fan of focusing more on champion design rather than just the raw numbers. For Morde, the question is 'how do we make him more fun to play both as AND against?' Always giving him some soul-stealing high points with his Ult in place of a simple giant nuke would pull that off pretty well, I think. A ghost is easier to interact with than a targeted nuke/dot is. You can focus the ghost down quickly or disengage until it's gone. But short of pre-nerf QSS, there wasn't ever any way to deal with Morde's Ult aside from being tanky enough to soak it.

Also, how's Koggles currently faring? haven't seen one in ages D:

He's still super unpopular. AP Kog has been really strong for a while, but the recent patch really took him down a peg. The removal of Locket's MR aura helped him out a fair bit, as did the recent item changes and his W buff.

Though, really, I still think buffing his W damage is pretty much the worst way to buff Marksmen Kog. All it does is make him stat-check people harder. I would rather see more of his power budget sunk into his ability to shred resistance. Giving him the niche of THE damage amp Marksmen would be a fun and compelling way to go. So he would be the team focused tank-buster while Vayne is purely selfish.

Elikain1 votes

Morde's ult is kind of useless sometimes because the clone's AI is rudimentary. AA champions that get killed and revived, benefit from this simplicity as the stats those champions buy boost their AAs, which is the most complicated thing the AI can do.

Spellcasters that get killed on the other hand, just transfer a portion of their power to Morde, basically accomplishing nothing in terms getting a spooky ghost that's going to kill people, you just use it to tank towers or dragon/herald/baron.

I feel that if Morde's ult is going to work properly and feel satisfying on using it on anyone, spellcasting/enchanting types of champions need to be figured out. Their abilities need to work. Just imagine reviving that Soraka and having her heal your team while the enemy team loses that healer. Or imagine reviving that Talon and him just going ham on the enemy!

Just imagine that Morde actually strategically ulties an enemy champion and Morde rips the strength from the enemy team and for a time, makes it his team's strength. But the limitation is that the clones cannot use ults themselves.

SirHeavyScrotum1 votes

That would pretty much make him impossible to duel if his ult is off CD. Literally no champion could deal with that, outside of maybe Illaoi getting an E off on either the clone or Morde and ulting all 3 of them.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

That would pretty much make him impossible to duel if his ult is off CD. Literally no champion could deal with that, outside of maybe Illaoi getting an E off on either the clone or Morde and ulting all 3 of them.

Don't duel the totally immobile Juggernaut with no CC of any kind?

Sounds like a reasonable trade-off.

Duke of Sloths6 votes

I really wish these Morde threads would stop until his eventual VGU. Imagine if everyday we had an Akali thread or Ezreal thread or Evelynn thread.

Rebonack2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Duke of Sloths ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sR8InejI,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-12-11T02:16:28.899+0000)

I really wish these Morde threads would stop until his eventual VGU. Imagine if everyday we had an Akali thread or Ezreal thread or Evelynn thread.

Sounds like I need to start spamming Kog topics every single day again.

Mistress Madoka10 votes

Well, Why not start Making Akali/Ezreal/Evelynn Threads? I'm sure Rioters would Love to hear player Ideas on how to rework them.

Instead of asking others to quit communicating, try bringing up your own discussions

Duke of Sloths6 votes

{quoted}

Well, Why not start Making Akali/Ezreal/Evelynn Threads? I'm sure Rioters would Love to hear player Ideas on how to rework them.

Instead of asking others to quit communicating, try bringing up your own discussions

You're 100% right about that, I should go out of my way to look for and start some discussion and I probably will start browsing the new/recent section a bit more.

But on the flip side it doesn't do anything to the whole daily Morde thread thing. I think we get it now that Morde is binary, in need of a VGU similar to Poppy or Yorick and that currently the champ is just fine in the most basic sense. This discussion happens alot.

Im not asking for an Akali, Ezreal or Evelynn thread everyday. Im just asking for some diversity. He has the stage clearly, people see an MM thread and it gets to front page every-time without fail. So if he's gonna take the stage, make it worth the while. Which is why I bother complaining about MM rather than Yasuo/Lee complaint thread #500 created by someone different everytime. MM is gonna get front page, and if he is then at least let me leave the thread knowing something new or coming out with a changed perspective. Like IDC keep it Morde related, but make it relevant to the patch or recent changes to the game/shifts in meta.

Mistress Madoka2 votes

I Agree that sometimes it can be overbearing to see certain threads OVER and OVER again, but I do have a bias, as I enjoy me some Morde myself.

I'm a simple gal, I see Morde, I Upvote

Elikain2 votes

I don't really think that MM can really talk about anything else in depth as much as he can with Morde. So my guess is that you're not asking of MM to start discussing various other champions that need to be the front page material.

You're implying that since he's the community's spokesperson, he should get in touch with other champion mains and use his influence to get those posts to the boards' frontpage? I have to admit that it doesn't sound like a bad idea but that would require prior communication and agreement between MM and those individuals. It can't happen on a whim of a single party.

Elikain1 votes

"Spamming" (and i use this term loosely) is something that gets pretty boring, pretty fast. You oversaturate the boards with the same content and even if this comes from a credible source (like MM), people will naturally start to lose interest in the topic because they see it regularly - just a slighter variation from the last week's post.

I don't mean to belittle MM or his posts, i love to be a part of a discussion about a direction for any champion. Even if i don't particularly care about them, it helps me understand why other people enjoy playing them or hate playing against them.

Spice POWAH1 votes

why does Ezreal need a VGU? he just needs a graphics update.

RainbowIcee1 votes

at this pace mord mains will be maining another champ before his rework :P I do think morde has problems.. he's far from a priority atm though imo. I'm glad WW and galio are going to be addressed soon though at least. Maybe one day so will urgot. Like they said they were 3 years ago.... or was it 4? it was a long ass time ago and still nothing.

Worthless Tripod3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Duke of Sloths ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sR8InejI,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-12-11T02:16:28.899+0000)

I really wish these Morde threads would stop until his eventual VGU. Imagine if everyday we had an Akali thread or Ezreal thread or Evelynn thread.

Yet you aren't out there writing them? Leave your whining to yourself, Metal is out here writing these almost daily because he cares that much, enough to put daily thought into these posts. LOOK at this post! It's gorgeous and well thought out. And he does this almost daily! Metal must dream about this stuff in his sleep, and during the day while performing his daily life! Tell me, does that sound like a burning passion? Yes. And your whining about it, could hardly even post 2 sentences.

Shout out to Malicious! I don't main morde hue hue man, I'm a vel'koz main myself, but the passion I see in your posts (plus the absolute lack of salt I've seen) is invigorating. More of us should be like you. Hang in there Mr. Metal, your passion can't possibly be missed and I'm sure someone with influence is reading and paying attention, even if they may not respond until the VGU comes.

[slayer-jinx-catface]

Duke of Sloths6 votes

I gotta say though I do appreciate that you enjoy a champion as much as you do, and that you care so much about their theme and gameplay. I just wish your efforts were in a more relevant place, like if Morde was currently being changed or if this was fresh news, so that your opinions translated in a way that felt less repetitive or wasted.

You're what I like in players and wish there was more of on this boards, enthusiasm. It's just these Morde threads, god there is so many.

JedenVojak6 votes

Well let's address your general points.

<Iron man passive is broken by design>

No it's not. "Shield for damage" fundamentally is no different than lifesteal which is "heals for damage", but is actually worse, since you have to spend health to use it, and it decays, where HP's gained from lifesteal do not.

<Siphon of destruction is instant, and mindless to use>

The same could be said of any ranged damage ability, including ranged auto attacks from marksmen. Why is it that marksmen get a pass for on click undodgeable ranged damage, but Mordekaiser's cooldown-based siphon is somehow a bad thing? This is a blatant double standard that makes no sense whatsoever, particularly given that Mordekaiser lacks CC and mobility, meaning his ability to force confrontations is very limited.

<Mordekaiser ult has a variable level of potential benefit making it difficult to balance>

To some extent this is true, but this should be the reward he gets, given the sheer amount of stuff he's traded out for this powerful ability. What has he lost for this?

-Utility -CC -Mobility -Range

Now granted, the power of his ultimate is somewhat contingent on who his target is, but turnaround power is part of Mordekaiser's strength, and frankly there aren't enough abilities in the game contingent on scaling off of enemy stats.

So, how could we fix this?

Honestly?

It&#039;s actually rather simple: -Give Mordekaiser more ways to outplay, make him less binary -Make him less feast or famine -Make his scaling binary and depending on HIS stats and not other variables -Reduce the sheer lack of meaningful counterplay

Well, I don't know how you'd accomplish any of this without giving him actual utility and CC, and I don't buy the counterplay argument for a second, as the very nature of his kit makes him fundamentally counterplayable by design - he has no way to force a confrontation the enemy doesn't have to have.

Concrete things?

Ok?

Ultimate

Children of the grave&#039;s damage, HP and other stats should be dictated by MORDE himself. It should be similar to Daisy, meaning that Ability Ranks and Mordekaiser&#039;s own stats add to the clone&#039;s efficiency, making it a binary scaling that does not rely on the enemy being fed. The way he gets the clone can be changed for all I care but seeing that he has to retain this in some way I feel this is the way to go to balance the Thrall he summons

This is a terrible idea, and pushes him even FURTHER into feast or famine territory. This basically means, if he has items his ult wrecks, if he falls behind it's useless - whereas the current ultimate will always provide him benefit, either from his stats stacked on the ghost, or the ghost stats onto his.

Iron Man; Reworked W

Active; Mordekaiser shields himself with necromantic energies and unleashes a torrent of malice and metal around himself, the Shroud damaging surrounding enemies. (Shield strength based on %HP)

(Reactivation; Implodes the metal storm to drain the surrounding area of life, healing Mordekaiser for a percentage(?) of his max HP for every unit struck, half as efficient against minions??)

I don't like this either. Mordekaiser should never scale off of max HP for anything. Forcing him to build HP to power his shield defeats the whole point of having a shield, as the shield IS his hp that he's losing in combat - changing Iron Man to be Max HP based was the second worst change that came out of the juggernaut update.

I wanted to move Iron man to an active, giving Mordekaiser more control over how he should use his survival tool, giving him a way to reflect incoming damage conscuiously and giving him a way to survive even outside combat.

I don't really see the need or point of this - iron man is Mordekaiser's Life Steal ability: it's what keeps him going by doing damage. Much like life steal is a passive stat, morekaisers iron man works best when it's just always on.

His Kit is a balancing nightmare and he lacks all the aspects of a healthy Kit, lacking Windows of Power, binary scaling and ways to outplay opponents or be outplayed.

I think this is the main problem with your analysis of Mordekaiser; the above statement is factually inaccurate. This is not a 1v1 dueling game, it's a team strategy game. Mordekaiser's counterplay was always being attacked by multiple people for as long as he was a thing, as he had no choice but to push the lane and be super aggressive.

As far as Windows of Power are concerned, that's not really fun or engaging game design as it's basically an arbitrary lock on the player saying "okay now you can do stuff for the next 3 seconds" followed by "okay now you're worthless for the next 15 seconds". Thanks but no thanks.

i am very high3 votes

@JedenVojak

I think what will mostly address your thoughts on this is that

a.) You can't compare a juggernaut to a marksman. You can't compare a juggernaut to a mage. You can compare a juggernaut to another juggernaut though, which you haven't done...

b.) Riot intentionally pushes the idea of "windows of power." As team strategy game, a balanced Morde based on your counterplay design of "just always 2v1 him," would inherently make him broken, since you would HAVE to devote extra resources to fighting just him, no matter what. That's why he stays weak. Windows of power are important and core to League since it's inception. That's why champion abilities have cooldowns (think about that).

And as a general comment (in life, not just online), instead of saying "You can't do this. Your idea sucks. This wouldn't work." you should offer some sort of alternate solution. You spent a pretty decent amount of time writing that, but all you really said was "No." You wasted a whole bunch of your time, and didn't really get anything out of it.

Haunt5 votes

Just to make sure @Meddler didn't see the first 100k threads about Mordekaiser, we needed another one saying the exact same things to assure he sees it and changes something accordingly!

ACENOX4 votes

As much as i hate a VGU on morde since i just love so much his current kit i'm forced to accept the fact that he'll get one

Like you said he depends too much on what damage he's doing to the enemy team due to his passive W hp steal, ulti hp steal His second problem is his E decision that you use every single time and i don't mind it for being reworked His third problem and i experienced that, is that he goes from being the worst player in the game if he's 0/10 to a monster if he gets a clone of the enemy adc

my ideas: -Make his passive not reducing incomming damage by 100% but 50% that way the enemies still have a chance to burst morde, to compensate let morde generates more shield depending on pre-mitigation damage. -Increase the cd of his E massively while making it a threat -Rework the ghost: Crit fixed to 0% (unless it's a guaranted crit like jhin passive) As fixed to 1/1.25/1.5 AD is now X/Y/Z+(sigma% AP) still clones the passives of the target

my opinion on YOUR IDEAS: -i really like current morde W, and i can't hide the fact that it's what makes me maining morde i just find so much uniqueness in this spell since morde is the only juggernaut who can heal an ally, and it can be gamechanging. i wouldn't mind if the way his W damage is changed, but healing an ally is honestly really fun -BUT, i really like your W iron man idea, and maybe i wouldn't mind trading it for this

D357R0Y3R1 votes

what about the xp passive?

Ahristocats2 votes

forgot that it existed

Remove it, it has no function. Solo lane morde doesn't use it Bot lane morde gains so little xp with it

do they want to make botlane morde working? they didn't need to give him that, his release W would already have made bot lane morde working (overlapping the areas for morde damage)

TyrekGoldenspear4 votes

every Juggernaut has a way to keep kickin' in the midst of battle and fulfill the role of being a damage threat, scaling well in the midst of battle and surviving a lot of punishment.

Thinks about Garen. Curls into ball and cries justice tears.

SirHeavyScrotum1 votes

WHY DOES NO ONE REMEMBER GAREN HAS A W???

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Trust me, after a few games with Garen, you'll quickly discover that W isn't enough nor does it compare to the tools of the other juggernauts. :(

Lux Is Mai Waifu3 votes

You need to get a life dude.

Duke of Sloths2 votes

[{quoted}](name=CSing Support,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sR8InejI,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-12-11T02:26:09.776+0000)

You need to get a life dude.

No need to be rude

Big Lincoln3 votes

NP, it's a 12/1 Vayne on YOUR team now.

fucking feeder vayne

Anyway, I've been doing a lot of thinking about Mordekaiser myself, and some things I'd like to see happen. I'm not nearly dedicated to Mord as you are (I've said repeatedly I despise his current kit and playstyle)

passive:

  • Limit his shield to only activate when it's filled up. It should be harder to stack up but once he activates it, all of Mordekaiser's damage (includes autos) feeds a portion of the damage to the shield until it's destroyed, and then it resets. This way he's got to work more for it, but once it pops it's a lot easier to keep up.

  • Possibly push some of his damage capability into his passive too. I'm a very big fan of Zarya and how she works (the only hero I like in Overwatch, matter of fact) and I think something similar would be really epic for Mord. His damage starts out fairly modest (still high because he's a juggernaut) but as he fills up his meter his damage starts to climb, he gets AoEs on his Q, he gets bigger, stuff like that. If this were the case I feel it'd have to replace his shield as a passive because it'd get too hard to keep track of two things on one resource, but we could move that to his W like you suggested. This is a pretty far-out change but I've been really liking the thought of it myself, since it means he could actually build fairly tanky and still be the heavy carry he's meant to be, and I think it suits his fantasy well.

Siphon of Destruction:

  • I think this spell should be a strong DPS ability, followed up with burst (or a stun, maybe) if a condition is met. Say, like a short channel (uninterruptable maybe?) where he drains the life out of everything in the same cone he's got now. If it reaches a threshold then he can reactivate it to strike the same area with a lot of damage and a stun. He can't use any other attack commands without canceling it, but it offers up strong sustain (that you can walk out of to stop healing him) and if he uses it well then he gets to take that charge and smash you with it. I want it to feel like an actual siphon, rather than just the instant poke he's got currently.

I think his Q warrants changes too. I've been thinking it before he got the rework, but Rengar's Q is a lot what I'd like for Mordekaiser; the half-circle swing in front of him instead of the three-hit bop. Tying into the passive idea, he'd get secondary blast ranges for each swing to extend his influence, and he might go from the half-circle swing to a ground-targeted slam that sends out a big shockwave in front of him. This way he's kind of target agnostic and if he positions right he can hit the tank and the ADC behind him.

I like Rebonack's suggestion for the ult a lot. mm pls respond

ForeverLaxx3 votes

How about that. A MM thread that actually had the OP giving real, legitimate ideas with the direction he thinks best fits his main instead of just talking a bunch of nonsense about feelings.

Baby steps.

Xela Syab2 votes

I really think Morde needs a Yorick style rework, just throw everything out on his old kit and just start over. They tried tweaking his kit and ended up nerfing most of it to "balance" him and that was the problem with his whole rework.

Sahn Uzal2 votes

Yorick is kinda still there though

Passive: The thing that allows him to summon ghouls/mistwankers Q: Slap someone with your shovel W: Ranged AoE Circle CC abilitly E: This one did change completely. R: Still summon a strong unit to help you out in combat.

It's the same champion! But different... But the same champion! But still different...

NineTailedMystic2 votes

The cooldown would be somewhere around 20-15 seconds but here comes the kicker: Every time Mordekaiser is damaged by an enemy champion or monster the Cooldown of Iron Man is reduced by (1-1.25-1.5-1.75-2) seconds, half as effective against monsters

What I see here is that he'd be a hard counter to DoT or sustained damage champs like Garen or Darius due to Garen E and Darius Bleed respectively.

KnightOfEloHell2 votes

Alright, my turn.

Personally, I like Morde's kit. But, there can be little thins to change.

Things to keep:

Iron Man passive: The shield scales with having %max hp already, as well as damage dealt by abilities. The fact that it degenerates seems more fair than the shield blocking a fraction of the damage taken. Let's have this stay as is.

Q: nice damage

Ult: who you ult and when is great. Ult a rank for hp regen or a tanky ghost to become more tanky, or get a fed assasin/mage/adc ghost for extra damage. Very useful for stats, and a fed adc ghost is always fun.

Things to change:

W: I used to love the exp passive on w, but now I never notice any extra exp in a duo lane. Let's scrap the exp passive and bring back say, the overlap damage, or allow w to generate more shield instead, tho overlap sounds better to me, since you get sgield based off of damage dealt, and overlap damage= more sheild generated. OR, allow Morde to have DoT on self cast when alone as well.

Base MS: buff from 325 to 335. This way he is still an immobile fighter with no cc, but you wont have to worry about being outran by an enemy with basic boots when you have full boots.

All that needs be done is a tiny MS buff, scrap exp on w, and replace exp passive with MOAR DAMAGEZ on w

midnight oil242 votes

After reading this I really want to play an updated Morde. He never interested me until now.

AcidTheWarlock1 votes

You forgot how incredibly binary his Q is.

If you hit it, ok, if you hit 2, ok, if you hit 3 or only the third, ouch.

Nothing in between. Either you take a fuckton of damage or you don't, no in between.

Of course, a big thing there is actually getting in range to Q, but that's another story.

Ahristocats3 votes

since the patch they reworked his 3rd Q mechanic it's no longer binary before, your first Q dealt no damage, second one was like 300 damage and third one oneshot

now his first and second Q both deals a decent amont of damage, while the third does even more damage without oneshoting.

with all the problem morde has his Q is the least of our worries.

Malicious Metal3 votes

I always felt his Q could be similar to Camille's with three reactivations being able to do a variety of things. Horizontal swings followed by a vertical one from ground-up skywards, sending people flying.

All just thematic stuff though, swinging a mace should feel really powerful and send people reeling or outright flying around, broken and battered.

Shadow Hazard1 votes

Have to be careful or frankly not at all for giving juggernauts hard CC. It is part of the reason why darius has remained the king of the juggernauts in general, and part of poppy's inherent unhealthiness and cause for her repeated nerfs. If mord gets hard CC you can be assured that the rest of his kit will be taking hits.

SirHeavyScrotum1 votes

Wait but Poppy isn't a juggernaut, she's a tank, and she's not all that unhealthy, her main problem is that her ult creates a numbers advantage in a team fight which is inherently really good in pro play since they usually only fight if numbers are at least even.

Shadow Hazard1 votes

Well written but unfortunately because of mords performance in top lane, you can't be simply adding to his kit. So the W idea is a cool idea but it is a straight buff. What mord fundamentally needs is rework I agree but you can't suggest buffs without compensation nerfs unfortunately, with a vgu suggestion in general there is only one part of the kit that will remain in some form or become the highlight of the kit. What I would suggest trying to think of is changing mords kit in a fashion that is of a similar level as shyvana's recent update, since I think that it is.

Really the only weakness that he had was the movement which rylai's fulfilled and still does in a smaller sense after the nerf. Mord really doesn't lack damage in his kit, and with one of his damage sources reduced because of the rylai's nerf I think it would be possible to finally give a small buff tweak that would make the pitiful base movement speed manageable while still being a limiter. His W could get a movespeed added as a flat value instead of only towards each other to give him that stickiness he lost from rylai's nerf and help him in between now and his hopeful eventual vgu.

Champion Skin2 votes

Well written but unfortunately because of mords performance in top lane, you can't be simply adding to his kit. So the W idea is a cool idea but it is a straight buff

No it isn't a straight buff... since it comes with the assumption that his passive is changed as it will be the new way mordekaiser survives and sustains through fights like most juggernauts do (and his passive being changed is a big deal as his current passive has a lot of power)

SteelMankind1 votes

I'd really appreciate it if you weren't so callous with slurs. The differently-abled are people too, and the "r" word is considered extremely offensive. That being said, how is Morde passive really all that different from lifesteal?

Ardond2 votes

the shield goes away unlike health

Wolfram Oxford1 votes

To be honest I can't see this whole "potential" thing all of you fuckers who support malicious and his opinions. Mordekaiser has a bland and unoriginal design and as for his kit it is pretty lackluster and doesn't allow for any interactive gameplay. Mordekaiser is one of those champions who should be deleted, and not because he is too strong, but because he just doesn't have a good place in League. But hey, maybe they could do an actual rework on him, give him a VU, and make it so he actually has a niche besides damage and a stupid ass shield.

KnightOfEloHell2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wolfram Oxford,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sR8InejI,comment-id=0022,timestamp=2016-12-11T20:28:23.709+0000)

To be honest I can't see this whole "potential" thing all of you fuckers who support malicious and his opinions. Mordekaiser has a bland and unoriginal design and as for his kit it is pretty lackluster and doesn't allow for any interactive gameplay. Mordekaiser is one of those champions who should be deleted, and not because he is too strong, but because he just doesn't have a good place in League. But hey, maybe they could do an actual rework on him, give him a VU, and make it so he actually has a niche besides damage and a stupid ass shield.

He is a fighter who can heal allies, and grant them movespeed buffs with w dor escapes. I have saved countless allies with w deactivate, but I'm a reworked Morde one trick, so I know little tricks to Morde.

And dont underestimate the shield, putting some points into it early, mid, and if ahead make you almost invicible.

As adc Morde, max w first against Vayne, ez

KnightOfEloHell1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Morde Unlimited,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sR8InejI,comment-id=00220000,timestamp=2016-12-11T21:56:57.705+0000)

He is a fighter who can heal allies, and grant them movespeed buffs with w dor escapes. I have saved countless allies with w deactivate, but I'm a reworked Morde one trick, so I know little tricks to Morde.

And dont underestimate the shield, putting some points into it early, mid, and if ahead make you almost invicible.

As adc Morde, max w first against Vayne, ez

And I might not agree on all pf mm's ideas, but it's the influence I respect. Anyone can post about thier main

orKs Shamrodia1 votes

So i've read your complaint about morde kit and since i like to design new champions or rework i'm giving MK a try i hope you'll like it:D

English is not my native tongue so be forgiving about that please, i'm no power point artist either and all of my ideas are just ideas on paper they're just here to say « what if ? » numbers are highly questionnable without testing so i focus more on the design than rather if the swing need a 250 damage or a 310 damage

As a rule while making a rework i prioritize 1) the sub class aimed 2) the theme/feeling 3) a unique mechanism 4) pre-existing mechanism 5) the rest So pre-existing mechnaism are pretty low

The sub class for MK ? Juggernaut ofc you pretty much all wants that for him

juggernaut, my definition, strength and weaknesses :

  • melee, very low range damage
  • high damage 1v1
  • high damage in teamfight if left untouched
  • durable, good base defense + strong sustain
  • No form of dash/charge/lunge or any form of replacement ability
  • very short window of stickiness
  • about movement and cc : juggernauts appear slow but they are not they just dont dash/charge/lunge but they « feel » slowy what should be more apporpriate is that they are steady, you see them closing on you same goes for cc they do have cc but they use it has a way to gap close and not a way to generate damage advantage
  • a range « pressure » spell that makes them viable against range opponent their « window » of power is initiated by that pressure spell that provides them a short period of assured melee range on their target and due to their lack of stickiness the window closes when the opponent simply flee again this only works if they are the strongest at melee range the pressure spell can either be : Darius' grab, Nasus' slow, Trundle's pillar, Illaoi's grab, Singed's goo, Sion's slow etc

As a personal vison : juggernaut players are not huge fans of successfully placing a combination of complex skillshots or high risk high reward situations skill on their part should be more focused on placement or « dance » with their opponent's placement which is even more enphasis by the fact that they dont have much replacement tools

theme/feeling of MK

A millenar necromant in a giant full body armor swinging a brutal mace and using unholy magic :

  • giant full body armor = durable
  • swinging his mace should feels slow strong and violent
  • he is a force to be reckon with and he knows that which means he is durable, confident and deadly like a slow, steady, unvoidable death menace
  • second part of his theme is the necroment part while he can resurect the dead, play with corpses, drain life or make the life flow from one person to another, his own body is probably altered by necromancy willingly or accidentaly perhaps which makes him more durable or in need of a full body armor this magic is not flashy nor fast it's again slow and steady
  • supports an ally with an iron shield, healing him or using him to damage nearby opponent
  • last part was not there at first it's the dragon slaying thing, he can interact with the dragons or create ghost of them or maybe his armor is made of dragon scales of he could use dragon magic
  • he does'nt use deception or tricks

The major feeling simply put i can get is : unvoidable death

With that i tryed to be as close as possible to the ideas i've described above respecting the sub class and reminded by his previous spells I could'nt keep everything i left aside everything corpse related as it felt too close to Yorick, support things (my choice) and the shield component (i choose healing) i also left aside the actual ult which is way too feast or famine to my taste, killing an enemy champion should be the reward in itself his ressource is gone so he is back to mana (he is a necroment after all) Again hope you'll like it

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/8/86/Expunge.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929123404 Passive : Necromantic touch Hitting a champion with any spell regenerate health

health amount : scales on level +1% of his missing health the maximum health he can regen per second is capped around 3 or 4 times the normal amount

_notes : _ it is ment to potentially regen a shit ton of health that's one of the strength of juggernaut to have more health regen based on the number of opponent the missing health means that it scales with health bonus

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/spell/MordekaiserMaceOfSpades.png Q spell : Mace of Spades frontal mace swing knock back minions units killed by that spell explode dealing small amount of damage if Q spell hits a champion for the next 10s MK's AA are empowered

damage of the swing : 80/120/160/200/240 (0,5ap) magic damage damage of the AA bonus : 20/25/30/35/40 (0,3ap) magic damage cost : 30/40/50/60/70 mana cooldown : 14/12/10/8/6s

_notes : _ nothing fancy here it's purely for the brutal satisfactoring feeling of swinging the mace the explosion is also thematic the damage should be quite low or even removed main source of relyable sustain damage empowered AA are really strong letting him roam free should be dangerous

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/c/ca/Creeping_Death.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929123058 W spell : Iron Storm active : metal shrapnels erupt from his armor toward specific directions in 4 consecutive waves every 0,5s MK can move freely during those 2s

http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/818977Sansnom1.png MK is the black dot in the middle this spell will alternatly deals damage in the red area then blue then red then blue while MK moves freely

each wave deal 20/40/60/80/100 (+0,1ap) TRUE damage deals no damage to minions cost : 50 mana cooldown : 24/22/20/18/16s

_notes : _ the point of these waves is to create a « dance » between MK and his opponents which is a placement skill challenge Q spell is enough damage on minions

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/e/eb/Grasping_Roots_old.png/revision/latest?cb=20160722182527 E spell : Necromantic Reach 600 unit range create a link between MK and his target for the next 3s the link grow stronger every 0,5s creating a circle around the target after 1,5s if the link has not been cut the target is « grounded » and slowly pulled toward MK for the next 1,5s moving 700 units away from MK or silencing him will break the link

can stack up 2 times one target can only have 1 dot at a time cost : 30 mana cooldown : 40s

_notes : _ this is the pressure spell, breaking the link as a counterplay the pulling is more thematic than effective, it's not a skarner ult the most relyable way to health regen through the passive does not proc rylai since there's no damage involve

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/spell/MordekaiserChildrenOfTheGrave.png R spell : Children of the grave Create a dragon ghost that will aid MK the dragon uses single target AA every 2s its range is 400 units its damage scales with morde's level and AP its health scales with morde's level and is quite decent its not easely killed its movement speed is 300 stun and ground last twice longer on it slows are twice as effective on it killing dragons adds more perks to the Children of grave in that order : deals 30% more damage gains 50 movement speed gains 100 range each AA deals 2% of target max health

cost : 100 mana cooldown : 120/100/80s

_notes : _

  • its damage is not really high since there's really no skill in this spell it's more of a damage boost and a continuous range slow bot with rylai it should be hard to kill and easy to kite or control killing at least 1 drake should be very important great synergy with rylai

Feel free to support comment judge whine or anything else it will be appreciated have fun guys:D

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