Suggestions for Buffs to Marksmen Not Named Vayne

The Yetii Rider··4 votes·522 views

Riot isn't going to nerf Vayne, they want to make her counters stronger to take advantage of her early game. Sounds good. Let's talk about that.

Ashe Allow Hawkshot to reveal stealthed units at the point of it landing (seriously, the ability does NOTHING but grant vision, compare it to Kalista's Sentinel and at least give Ashe some bonus utility).

Draven Change The Bloodthirster to be built out of Cutlass and Pickaxe + cost (same final cost and item). If early and mid game carries can rush Cutlass at the same time as Vayne, she won't be so safe and hard to kill early.

Ezreal Sigh...Okay, dump Essence Flux entirely. Give Mystic Shot an 80% AP ratio so that AP Ez mains won't cry, and give us a new ability. 10/9/8/7/6 second cooldown, fire a projectile in an area of effect like Corki's Phosphorous Bomb, dealing physical damage and slowing enemies inside the sphere, while granting allies inside the area attack speed.

Graves Change Buckshot's cost to be 60 at all ranks, and make Smokescreen's mana cost 80 at all ranks. Graves's early game is just fine but his mid game is horrible because AD mana itemization is horrible. This isn't Season 2, Graves isn't a major threat anymore.

Caitlyn Add a mechanic that reduces the cast time of Piltover Peacemaker to 0.5 seconds if Caitlyn is below 50% max health at the start of the cast. Piltover Peacemaker is a large chunk of her damage but Caitlyn isn't able to use it effectively in trades or ganks because of all the Leonas and Threshs running around.

Corki Corki is rewarded too much for hanging back and punished too hard for engaging. Change his Gatling Gun (which is not the ability he maxes first, so the first rank is very important in lane) to shred 3/3.5/4/4.5/5 armor per half second from 1/2/3/4/5 per half second. (Still caps at 8 stacks). Doesn't affect Corki's current hang back and ult playstyle, but gives him some room to fight back when he's being chain CC'd by tank supports.

Lucian The BT change will be enough to help Lucian out.

MissFortune Give Bullet Time a 50% damage amp when affecting an enemy affected by movement impairing crowd control (snares, stuns, taunts). This will solidify Miss Fortune's position as an AOE team fighting carry and encourage players to pair her with champions like Galio and Amumu (similarly to how people don't need to be told to pick Wukong and Malphite when someone picks Yasuo)

Twitch I honestly have nothing here. Twitch is a marksman with long duration stealth. That's just not balance able in my opinion, and I don't want him to be good.

18 Comments

Centuros2 votes

Varus item 3070

Ace Access 2 votes

as someone who plays Caitlyn a lot since Vayne Leona Thresh started getting a lil too common for comfort pacemaker uses up a lot of mana so spamming it isn't a good idea, I think she just needs a slightly higher base attack speed and to reduce by 1 the stacking of her passive at lvl1

Meep Man2 votes

Saddened by the lack of effort on Twitch just because you dont seem to like him. Never the less... Riot should consider some of these changes for the ADC Item Pass happening after Worlds.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sQsYxRth,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-09-09T16:17:36.600+0000)

Saddened by the lack of effort on Twitch just because you dont seem to like him. Never the less... Riot should consider some of these changes for the ADC Item Pass happening after Worlds.

Don't get me wrong, Twitch is an interesting champion, I just think Riot should make him a jungler.

Hayaishi21 votes

What BT change...

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

What BT change...

Listed under Draven. Basically improve the build path. Draven and Lucian are good match ups against Vayne but BT Rush is bad because Vamp Scepter is a horrible item to sit on. If Vayne rushes Cutlass and Draven rushes Cutlass Draven will win.

Cindikle1 votes

Vayne only does well because she has a massive amount of self peel.

Problem is the game balance, not ADC's.

Most anyway. For example you didn't list Quinn. And that was the right choice.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

Vayne only does well because she has a massive amount of self peel.

Problem is the game balance, not ADC's.

Most anyway. For example you didn't list Quinn. And that was the right choice.

There are other champions with self peel. Sivir, Ashe, Caitlyn. The reason Vayne does well is because she synergize extremely well with stun lock supports and because rushing Cutlass is stronger than rushing BFS.

Cindikle1 votes

Then why is she so good now while other ADC's have fallen off? This happened before the juggernaut changes.

Sivir, Ashe and Caitlyn all have weaker self peels and are more easily abused for their weaknesses. Two of those also require their ulti for the most part. And the other is one of the weakest late game ADC's damage wise.

Vayne is a very safe, hard to counter ADC. She's good in almost every meta for this reason. And when ADC's are at their weakest, she seems overpowered and broken. Which to a degree she is. But when she's in power it tends to be because of the meta, not because ADC's need a buff.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

Then why is she so good now while other ADC's have fallen off? This happened before the juggernaut changes.

Sivir, Ashe and Caitlyn all have weaker self peels and are more easily abused for their weaknesses. Two of those also require their ulti for the most part. And the other is one of the weakest late game ADC's damage wise.

Vayne is a very safe, hard to counter ADC. She's good in almost every meta for this reason. And when ADC's are at their weakest, she seems overpowered and broken. Which to a degree she is. But when she's in power it tends to be because of the meta, not because ADC's need a buff.

The reason Vayne is good (other than the aforementioned synergy with popular supports and the power of Cutlass) is that all of Vayne's skills do physical damage with an AD ratio. Every other carry in the game besides Draven has at least one skill that does magic damage and scales with AP, effectively making it useless late game, where ADCs should be shining.

Cindikle1 votes

She has one ability that scales with AD. The rest of her kit is true damage and AA steroids.

Champions that have AP in their kit have it for mixed damage to be harder to build vs. The majority of their damage will still be mostly physical. The highest damage ADC, Kog'Maw, is also probably the ADC that will have the highest % magic damage. A lot of his power is that you cannot really build to fight him.

Miss Fortune is also one of the strongest AA champs of ADC's. W stacks keep her damaged mixed with a strong AS steroid and a low CD ability that also resets AA. Although she has drawbacks. I'm just trying to state that what makes Vayne strong is hardly her source of damage but instead her massive self peel.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

She has one ability that scales with AD. The rest of her kit is true damage and AA steroids.

Champions that have AP in their kit have it for mixed damage to be harder to build vs. The majority of their damage will still be mostly physical. The highest damage ADC, Kog'Maw, is also probably the ADC that will have the highest % magic damage. A lot of his power is that you cannot really build to fight him.

Miss Fortune is also one of the strongest AA champs of ADC's. W stacks keep her damaged mixed with a strong AS steroid and a low CD ability that also resets AA. Although she has drawbacks. I'm just trying to state that what makes Vayne strong is hardly her source of damage but instead her massive self peel.

And you are wrong in that aspect. Vayne's kit has one ability that deals high physical damage and a second ability that deals high physical damage on a low cooldown that scales very well with her AD.

AP in the kit that is 'harder to build against' except that pretty much everyone in bot lane runs full flat MR glyphs, so they start the game with 42 MR, and the melee supports get scaling MR per level. Here's the thing: If magic damage isn't scaling with anything other than level (and you're maxing it last, like Miss Fortune's Make it Rain or Graves's Smokescreen) then it's a useless ability.

Miss Fortune is not one of the strongest AA champs of ADC's. Her auto attack reset has a cast time, her on-hit effect requires her to focus a single target for an extended period of time which is nearly impossible in anything other than an early lane trade or a chase (in team fights you have to switch targets, reposition, mix in some abilities and summoners, you can't just stand there and auto the same person 8 times in a row) and most importantly, her ultimate deals magic damage.

Kog'maw's power is that you can't reach him, not that you can't build against him. A good Kog'maw will have a good dedicated peeler while he stays in the very back line and fires off blast after blast, which is why he's a much more successful mid laner with Luden's Echo.

Cindikle1 votes

And you are wrong in that aspect. Vayne's kit has one ability that deals high physical damage and a second ability that deals high physical damage on a low cooldown that scales very well with her AD.

Condemn is an ability that deals damage. Tumble is an ability that enhances your next basic attack's damage. It's not actually an ability that deals damage. It's an AA enhancer. Yes they're different things.

AP in the kit that is 'harder to build against' except that pretty much everyone in bot lane runs full flat MR glyphs, so they start the game with 42 MR, and the melee supports get scaling MR per level. Here's the thing: If magic damage isn't scaling with anything other than level (and you're maxing it last, like Miss Fortune's Make it Rain or Graves's Smokescreen) then it's a useless ability.

The idea is that you cannot build one thing to stop them. It does not have to be as strong as Kog'Maw's level of magic damage. But everything helps. It also allows the bases of these abilities to be higher for that reason. Such as MF's Make it Rain having a base of 90-310 damage. Some champions, such as Graves, have proven they don't need the help.

Miss Fortune is not one of the strongest AA champs of ADC's. Her auto attack reset has a cast time, her on-hit effect requires her to focus a single target for an extended period of time which is nearly impossible in anything other than an early lane trade or a chase (in team fights you have to switch targets, reposition, mix in some abilities and summoners, you can't just stand there and auto the same person 8 times in a row) and most importantly, her ultimate deals magic damage.

Impure shots does not require her to focus a target. She can swap targets if she wants. It doesn't fall off like Vayne's. Q's cast time is really quick, you shouldn't really notice it too much unless you're at max attack speed. Which sounds like a bad idea. Her ulti at it's base is physical damage(that scales with AP). The magical damage is from her impure shots(which scales with AD).

Also being a good duelist is usually talking about a champions 1v1/skirmish power. Not teamfights. In a 1v1 MF is one of the stronger ADC's because she'll keep stacking damage on you.

Kog'maw's power is that you can't reach him, not that you can't build against him. A good Kog'maw will have a good dedicated peeler while he stays in the very back line and fires off blast after blast, which is why he's a much more successful mid laner with Luden's Echo.

He's doing well in mid lane because of Luden's. Not with Luden's.

Protect the Kog'Maw comps exist because of his late game damage. Damage that you cannot build to fight very easily because he has armor/mr shred, %hp damage, range and building ADC means he'll have plenty of physical damage too. I don't know another ADC that gets this treatment. Jinx is probably the closest one to his teamfighting power, but I don't see "Protect the Jinx" comps anywhere.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

adc is already op

every game has to have an adc because thats how op they are

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

adc is already op

every game has to have an adc because thats how op they are

If Mages had an item that let them take towers and Baron as easily as ADCs can (remade AP-based Madred's that works on objectives plz) then they would be able to do the same job. ADCs are needed because of their tower seiging ability and for no other reason. That could be fixed with better AP/IAS itemization.

In terms of strength, the most effective champions right now consist of 5 Mages, 4 Fighters, and a Tank. You don't get to the first Ranger until Jinx in slot 23.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

{quoted} In terms of strength, the most effective champions right now consist of 5 Mages, 4 Fighters, and a Tank. You don't get to the first Ranger until Jinx in slot 23.

According to you but not me or many other people

My list is

  1. Vayne
  2. Ahri
  3. Azie in high elo
Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

According to unbiased statistics but not me or many other people

My list is

  1. Vayne
  2. Ahri
  3. Azie in high elo

Fixed that for you.

Mord is stomping the shit out of bottom lane in every game he isn't banned in, but it's Rangers that are super OP, right?

Vayne and Jinx are both strong compared to other Rangers. They're getting spammed because Rangers are largely interchangeable with each other, which in turn is due to the fact that Ranger itemization is incredibly one-dimensional (do I want Shiv or Dancer? Do I want Thirster or BotRK?). As such, the most powerful ADCs of the month get all the play.

All of it.

When has there ever been a time when two or three Rangers haven't been completely dominating the picks?

I've been around since open beta and I can answer that for you.

Never.

Rebonack1 votes

Protect the Kog'Maw comps exist because of his late game damage. Damage that you cannot build to fight very easily because he has armor/mr shred, %hp damage, range and building ADC means he'll have plenty of physical damage too. I don't know another ADC that gets this treatment.

Nah, it's pretty much entirely due to his range. Back before Riot destroyed Trist's attack speed, she was a more popular hyper-carry pick since she could put out a similar amount of damage while also being really safe. Koggy's damage per game isn't high because of him dealing 120-180 extra magic damage on each auto attack (considering that late game auto-attacks hit for around 800 damage), it's because of his ability to poke before a hard engage. Note that Ez ranks just behind Kog in spite of lacking any sort of particularly impressive steroid.

No, really.

Head over to Champion.gg and filter Rangers by damage dealt. The folks up on top of the list all have VERY strong poke, with Draven clocking in at number five due to having auto attacks that actually hurt. The actual right-click damage of most ADCs (baring Draven) is almost exactly the same.

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