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Why hasn't crit been removed yet?

B3ER··7 votes·1,695 views

#EDIT2: This post is now about the ramp up damage amp change described below. Discussion in this thread has left us at a point where we need a solution to crit, not just the straight up removal.

Do ADC's really need an RNG based damage increase to shit on everyone else more? They could stand to lose a multiplier. Make them weaker in fights but still functional against towers to keep their niche. This way we can have meaningful choices in botlane that sacrifice tower pressure for teamfight pressure or vice versa. ADC's get to have the best of those worlds. Besides, there is no counterplay to RNG and I heard Riot loves counterplay.

Don't even start with the armor argument. We all know resistances are useless after LW and counterbuilding still isn't counterplay. Don't even start with the "what are ADC mains gonna play when ADCs are less meta?". Practice something different. Every other lane/roll has been turned upside down except for you lot. Everyone else had to deal learning new things.

#Ramp up Crit idea

EDIT: If a compensation multiplier is truly needed, I propose a ramp up damage amp. Basically, after X (e.g. 4) number of basic attacks against a target, the ADC will do % increased damage against that target. If the ADC switches targets he has to start the ramp from half. (so 2).

So Brawler's Glove now gives 10% bonus damage from basic attacks instead of 10% chance at 200% damage. Infinity Edge multiplies the damage amp by 150%. While this may seem weaker, there is increased value in consistency.

#Thoughts behind this idea

Give ADC's some gameplay to achieve their late game hyperscaling destruction instead of just hoping for the best. Put a gate on their 4x scaling as opposed to the 2x defensive scalings of tanks/bruisers (as eloquently put by Chardling). This will give opponents a window to attack the enemy ADC at their weakest. ADCs in turn can improve their gameplay by priming the crits on minions or by valuing the recently buffed AS stat. Teams can now also recognize when an ADC is ramped up and choose to disengage until the timer resets. Meaningful decisions, buzz words, levers.

Yes, the 4 basic attacks that don't do increased damage means the ADC does less damage overall, but there is added power in consistency. (Remember that they reduced Wriggle's on hit magic damage when they removed the pRNG).

PS. Runaan's will apply the damage amp on the secondary targets. This might change some item builds or accentuate AoE ADCs such as Twitch and MF.

Thoughts on this change.

17 Comments

B3ER5 votes

No you're right that crit isn't fully random because League used to have that until Riot changed it. There was a time you'd be able to get 3 consecutive crits even though you only had 10% crit chance simply because the probability was factored for each hit. Riot changed it because it was kinda super broken.

Pro ADCs have now mentioned that the ADC game has become more about getting lucky crits rather than outplaying your opponent. Luck shouldn't have any place in a skill based competitive game.

wolfax3 votes

Then what are you going to give them to make up for the fact you took out the only thing making the work? Just taking out crit is not going to fix things. You will dump the entire ADC class because they rely on that doublescaling crit offers.

B3ER4 votes

Then what are you going to give them to make up for the fact you took out the only thing making the work? Just taking out crit is not going to fix things. You will dump the entire ADC class because they rely on that doublescaling crit offers.

I've put it up in the OP.

kunkudunk3 votes

Also, don't let my comment below lead you to thinking that I disagree with crit being removed or reworked to be less important. How basically manditory it is to build crit holds back caster based adcs like ez, varus, and sivir and puts more emphasis on range, safety, and attack speed steroids such as trist, cait, or jinx (although jinx isn't currently viewed as op at the moment, and neither is cait, jinx is still strong and cait gets her range at lvl 1 unlike jinx and trist). Still, crit is one of the few things that keeps adcs from feeling like casters that deal physical instead of magic damage and having better auto attack damage.

kunkudunk3 votes

This point is brought up often, and if I remember correctly, critical hits aren't completely random. I believe that it works as follows. Every time you don't crit your crit chance goes up a bit, while every time you do crit it goes down a bit. It never hits zero chance or 100% chance unless you are at 0 or 100. Could have changed though.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

oh well, there´s a statement from FeralPony that they´ll finally try to make changes later on in the Preseason:

"Critical Strike is viewed as an issue but tbh adjustments on that front are not only lower in value than a lot of the strategic changes we're trying out but also has substantially more fallout and cost. We've been experimenting over time with a number of variations (examples include - reducing crit dmg and upping chance, conditional crits, etc)

It's a super interesting topic I'm willing to over in more detail in a later date, but will not be addressed early on in the preseason, and something I'd be curious to get more player insight on because it's a pretty polarizing topic, both internally and externally."

(Source: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/K6OeAZ7t-experimental-preseason-2015-changes-hitting-the-pbe-over-the-next-few-days?comment=001900000000)

Also, there has been a major Discussion earlier this year about the topic itself and solutions: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/live-gameplay/hbEj1jWi-can-we-finally-phase-crits-rngesus-out-of-the-game

ScalyManChard3 votes

Issue is that Auto-Attack DPS has 4 multiplicative damage boosts: AD, Attack Speed, Penetration, Crit Casters have 2-3: AD/AP, Penetration, CDR (CDR isnt as reliable, its only a DPS contribution as certain thresholds at certain fight lengths) Tanks have 2: Health, Armor/MR (Attack speed reduction counts I suppose, but is capped fairly low.

This results in ADCs having absurdly exponentially scaling damage once they build a little of each (as you build one, the damage boost from the others is effectively increased).

This is further exacerbated by a tank having to build Armor AND MR, though this can be balanced by costs.

Randomness: They can simply remove the random crits and just have 50% crit boost your total damage by 50%, which it effectively does over time.

Hyperscaling: As far as ADCs outscaling tanks, an elegant solution would be to include "resilience" - essentially the opposite of crit. These items decrease ALL damage taken by a flat %, capping at some fair value (a hard-to-achieve 40% max?) . I.E. Armor of Invulnerability: Reduces all damage taken by 10%

This would allow tanking to scale more similarly to damage in the late game. Naturally this would be expensive, but there would be a point where it would be more effective than stacking more Armor/MR.

B3ER1 votes

Hyperscaling: As far as ADCs outscaling tanks, an elegant solution would be to include "resilience" - essentially the opposite of crit. These items decrease ALL damage taken by a flat %, capping at some fair value (a hard-to-achieve 40% max?) . I.E. Armor of Invulnerability: Reduces all damage taken by 10%

This would allow tanking to scale more similarly to damage in the late game. Naturally this would be expensive, but there would be a point where it would be more effective than stacking more Armor/MR.

I really like this idea for tanks but I feel like its gonna take another 5 years before Riot implements it. They'd would have to make more items for this because its currently nearly impossible to put this % damage reduction on existing items without breaking them.

Rustling Bush2 votes

if they dump crit, then give us more armor pen items.

AtheosisX2 votes

So...make ADC even less appealing to play? Okay then...

wolfax2 votes

If you remove crit you will not see ADCs. They are built around being able to crit.

Crit acting as a multiplier helps to keep their early game down while increasing their late game to the levels they need to succeed. Without crit their late game damage would be cut nearly in half. Exactly how well do you think any class based entirely on damage would do if you cut their damage lets say by 40-45%? Unless you want to add a double AD damage item to the game specifically for them, but that has the terrible side effect of giving them one massive power spike. You can't just rip out the things that makes ADCs function and go look, you're fine, play something else.

Crit is also not random, just like in every game that uses them. If you know anything about crits in game it uses a psuedorandom system. Basically if you hit and miss a crit it adds a better chance on the next attack which increases until you get a crit. Same thing in reverse for making crit streaks less random. If you get 2 crits in a row it lowers the chance to force you to get a normal attack in. This smooths the curve of crits, making it happen pretty much when they're supposed to and making lucky streaks almost non existent.

Arch Mage Magnus2 votes

Because Tryn would have to be re-worked.

B3ER2 votes

I understand the attachment to a certain kind of feel but we have to think about whether it is healthy. Remember when Kha'Zix could shoot missles mid air? That felt great and after Riot removed it. it felt clunky until we forgot about it. I'm still salty about that, though. :(

Back on topic, right now crits give a nice small "Boom!" and "Oooooh!" factor that is pretty characteristic to ADCs but is a certain amount of power that can completely warp a fight simply because you can't accurately predict the flux of damage that you'll take/dish. There isn't much you can do against that other than stay out of range.

Another source of damage that had the "Oooooh!" factor was the Nidalee spear. It was incredibly characteristic to her and got nerfed hard, despite having more counterplay than a lock on crit infused auto attack. It was deemed as unhealthy for the game and Nidalee players had to adapt to find something else that was now characteristic to her.

I'm certain that critical strikes are poor for the game because its hard to play around it when you're a naturally squishy champion. I had to face a fed Draven today as Zed. He did more burst than I did despite me using all my abilities and item actives and I always had to bail early because he crit for 900 damage almost every hit. I managed to take him down at some point because he managed to get 0 crits off.

What this tells me is that neither Draven nor I knew what the outcome of that battle was going to be and that you can play it to your best ability and hope for the best. There are no meaningful decisions once that fight has to go down, there are no choices to weigh, there is no precise moment to time or dodge anything, there is only RNG. That shit does NOT belong in a game that values decision making and skill so damn much.

Hayaishi2 votes

Crit is based on an algorithm so it's not fully RNG, i remember some Rioter posted that (was on the old forums i can't find it)

By the way Critical Strikes is the ONLY reason why an ADC can kill a tank late game, remove it and there's no one to kill a tank now, so if it gets replaced it will be something equally strong and it will be better because it's consistent.

IMO crit is only broken on broken champions like Draven.

Marthian1 votes

really I've seen ADCs build Last Whisper and Armor is still an issue. Notably when they have well over 200 armor.

B3ER1 votes

Bump for thread redirection. The OP has been edited with more elaborations.

B3ER1 votes

Bump

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