No Seriously Tryndamere Ultimate is Unfair

PrinceArchie··53 votes·6,449 views

Match: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1855599190/48728987?tab=stats

Now before you bite my head off please allow me to start off by saying I am not writing this in quick response after a terrible loss to a Tryndamere in lane or during any stage of the game. In this game I actually won and the Tryndamere did pretty horrible but thats the problem, he did horrible and yet he still had as much pressure on the map as one of the strongest threats on the enemy team. Yea you look at the match history and we are down as much as 4.6k gold @ 31 minutes, but thats not off kills, thats off relentless split push and at one point one of our members afked for around 15 minutes+ (Rammus ). Nonetheless the other members were able to cause chaos and set an environment where this guy was able to get to towers semi-unattended, and without much of our CC there in Rammus, dealing with him and preventing a Kamikaze to a turret is near impossible due to his ultimate. We were down a man and needed answers to stop the bleeding, that answer came when Rammus reconnected, but even after Tryndamere still crashed into tower after tower then inhib after inhib.

The problem is that unlike any other split push type champion (Udyr , Zed , Yasuo Fiora ,Jax etc.) ; this champ for solely no other reason than his absurd ultimate is allowed to be a relentless threat throughout the entire game. All of these other splitpush champs can be monsters late game, are insane duelists and have very potent ultimate's. But what makes Tryndamere an outlier is that his ultimate allows him to cheat death while being able deal absurd amounts of damage. The result is the demise of a very low enemy team, due to Tryndamere being able to clean up really easy without the presence of abundant and dedicated hard CC; or in this case as it's relevant to this post and this game, being able to take towers regardless of his score because he can just build full damage due to his absurd ultimate.

Seriously think about it logically, you encounter a Fiora who is [0/7/1] 20 minutes into the game with only 100 cs. Do you think it possible and fair for her to just be able to take two top towers? Of course if objectives are left unattended or no moves on the map continue for long enough such champs can ramp up and run rampant. However would it still be fair for said champ to have an ultimate that can just ignore your attempts at stopping them (literately just dying to take the tower at that point), with no defensive items and only an ultimate to keep them alive long enough to be a martyr for an objective? Would it be fair for said champ to end the game [0/23/4] and in the course of that time take 3 separate inhibitors twice each using the same method?

Sure some better champ picks and perhaps more concentrated grouping may have alleviated the issue but a Udyr was on that team as well and we all know what that champ loves to do all day. You guess it, split push. At a certain point you cant just ignore them, especially if your push just isnt as strong even as 5 much less 4 for a fair part of the game (which is absurd considering the score of the Trynd). The only reason we won this game was because we could group even as 3 or 4 and win against them in their unit of 3 or 4. But with two champs hell bent on split pushing, even baron and 5th drag were hard to utilize due to the fact Tryndamere could just kamikaze any inhib tower at any time. Yes I stayed at base duty, to try and mitigate this but look how long the game took to close out. The point is a champs mechanics shouldn't be so potent that it allows players to forcibly take very important objectives at will, with no skill but mere force of will.

I seriously feel like no matter what you do, or how behind this champ is you're not allowed to leave this champ in a lane on his own, only due to his ultimate and usual build path. That players who play this champ are allowed and know they can abuse the nature of this champ and force constant pressure no matter how they play individually. Thats ridiculous I know there are fans and even mains of this champ/play style. Not everyone will agree I may be even horribly downvoted with my Elo somehow coming into question. None of that really matters though because of all champs that currently exist in this game, this champs uncanny ability to do what he does is unrivaled. It's a broken mechanic and it's tiresome it's overlooked. This isn't a tank we're talking about (Alistar ) this is a full on bruiser that can delete squishies and melt tanks, why does he even need this ultimate? He has a gap closer that can jump through terrain, a slow and a self heal along with a passive that makes his crits so dangerous. He's already loaded for splitpush and is probably the best at it, even for escaping. Why should he be allowed to effectively Zhonyas while moving and do tons of damage? It's Scion passive on crack and its needs to be changed.

I know absolute balance cannot be truly attained in the game, however I do feel that the game should try it's best to be balanced. When I say balance please do realize I mean not just how powerful champs are but the risks/rewards and player performance and how that has an impact overall. Anything can change a game, throws happen, but this shouldnt be allowed to happen, it's honestly an outlier with a direct cause. A single ability should not grant a player pseudo-immunity once they hit 6 to take any objective they please. Thank you for reading if you did read this far.

TL: DR- Trynd has a really unfair Ultimate that allows him to do whatever he pleases in many situations, even if he is doing abysmal. It should be changed so that it doesnt allow players to just press R and feel free to take anything they want despite their performance, whether that be a single players life or an objective.

72 Comments

Jacknife34 votes

You're not getting a lot of support, but I can actually attest to this. Whether Tryndamere is ahead or not, he's going to splitpush until he gets to your base. A MasterYi or Fiora you can sneak up on and kill with planning. A Nasus, Jax, or Shen you can beat early so they have no relevance. A Singed you can even ignore, it takes him forever to take objectives. A Tryndamere has enough strength in his kit to make his split pushing matter, no matter how many items he has. If you collapse on him he'll spin away. If he's low he'll ult, and if he has a good understanding of the game he'll juke you out. This gives one of two options, either gather your team and be hellbent on pushing harder than him, or have someone baby him the entire time, both of which will fail eventually as he gets stronger. Just the very fact he's in the game limits your options to win, severely. This doesn't mean it works every time, he still depends on his team to make the right decisions, which if they don't then his pushing will fail before he takes too much. But the point OP is making is that no champion should limit you as hard as he does, its broken in and of itself.

AFK Push5 votes

{quoted}

You're not getting a lot of support, but I can actually attest to this. Whether Tryndamere is ahead or not, he's going to splitpush until he gets to your base. A MasterYi or Fiora you can sneak up on and kill with planning. A Nasus, Jax, or Shen you can beat early so they have no relevance. A Singed you can even ignore, it takes him forever to take objectives. A Tryndamere has enough strength in his kit to make his split pushing matter, no matter how many items he has. If you collapse on him he'll spin away. If he's low he'll ult, and if he has a good understanding of the game he'll juke you out. This gives one of two options, either gather your team and be hellbent on pushing harder than him, or have someone baby him the entire time, both of which will fail eventually as he gets stronger. Just the very fact he's in the game limits your options to win, severely. This doesn't mean it works every time, he still depends on his team to make the right decisions, which if they don't then his pushing will fail before he takes too much. But the point OP is making is that no champion should limit you as hard as he does, its broken in and of itself.

I feel just as limited when playing against a Nasus. Sure I can stomp him and make plays elsewhere, but if my team doesn't help me capitalize on my roams then he will eventually get his late game and push to win.

Jacknife1 votes

{quoted}

I feel just as limited when playing against a Nasus. Sure I can stomp him and make plays elsewhere, but if my team doesn't help me capitalize on my roams then he will eventually get his late game and push to win.

Then don't roam if your team is that dumb. Keep beating him down until he's too afraid to even walk out of base ( I play a lot ofDarius so I make this sound easier said than done, his early game is as bs as Nasus' late game). Then while he's pushing the lane so slowly to get stacks help your team won the 4v5. You can do this with Tryndamere too, but the problem is that if you leave for a second he'll be at your towers, slowly or quickly chunking them.

DoctorSpaceDog1 votes

Tryndamere's sklip pushing and unshutdownability is annoying but it's not inherent to his ult. It's easy to play around his ult if you don't just trade autos with him while it's going.

Chaotic Reks18 votes

being able to take towers regardless of his score because he can just build full damage due to his absurd ultimate.

meanwhile full-tank Nasus...

Gunpoint10 votes

[{quoted}](name=NyX Reks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sQ6uhZIO,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-06-14T03:14:55.168+0000)

meanwhile full-tank Nasus...

Well he's not exactly healthy either.

Remlap12232 votes

That's a nice Tank you have there. It'd be a shame if someone picked a champion that did sustained %health damage.

KogMaw Varus Vayne

B3ER4 votes

/Wither. You were saying?

ChaosThief2 votes

Takes a full minute to say a word

But seriously those three make it too easy for wither. All you have to do is avoid a wall for vayne and dodge varus's ult.

Only Play Darius2 votes

/Support

What? You build straight glass and expected to 1v1 a tank?

Only Play Darius1 votes

I main him, I don't always build full tank sometimes I throw in a item 3035 if i'm doing well lol.

pripustas10 votes

Ohh, trynds ulti is unfair. Ok. Ranged adc's can deal the same damage, while having range and teammates to protect them, and various escape tools. Tryndamere has his slow, which you have to land while your enemy is not facing you (have you tried to land it against a kiting adc?) it also has a long cd. His heal uses up all of his built up rage, which at early levels means a huge dps drop, and still at max level and rage heals for about 300. His gap closer is perfectly balanced, and has 10seconds cooldown if you don't hit anything with crits. He has no other tools of stopping someone apart from his W which he has to land. Take out his ult, and he can't kill anything.

Hinagiku333 votes

I'm pretty sure the point is that you can take out Tryndamere's current ult, give him a new ult (obviously), and possibly buff or alter his base skills.

Just taking out his ult would obviously kill him.

Considering that Fiora is getting her ult taken out when her rework comes out (some day...) I'm pretty sure Riot will absolutely change Trynd's ult when they get around to him.

Frankly, I just beat a team with Tryndamere and his ult is still one of the skills I hate most in the game. The only real solution is to stun him and hit the rest of his team, but his ult lasts way longer than any single stun so you have to chain-CC him or let him deal damage while being unkillable for a bit. I think that it wouldn't be so bad if CC wasn't so limited in LoL, but since League players hate CC so much the least Riot could do is nerf the duration of Trynd's ult and buff his base skills a bit.

What Is Smite3 votes

Yea 5 seconds is a bit too long when the longest CC in the game is 3 Seconds (Morgana Snare), but then again you have to think: In how many games, either ranked or casual, will there be a person playing Morgana at a sufficient enough level to actual be able to stop Tryndamere in his ultimate? The answer to that is clearly: No. Now for everyone who says "it is easy to deal with Tryndamere just pick champ X" you need to understand the game a bit more. Like any team game you are suppose to communicate with teammates and pick champions that contribute as a whole to the team whether they are there for initiation, tanking, or assassinating the enemy team Squishies. Never should there be a need to pick a certain champion to counter another, in fact that's what we have 6 slots for itemization, with the plethora of items we have access to in-game (unfortunately I feel it's getting smaller based on item useage each season).

Only Play Darius2 votes

Nasus works great against Tryndamere. Can actually beat him in lane early game (rushes armor without sacrificing damage), splitpushes just as hard as he can, and wither outlasts his ult and makes sure he won't be going anywhere for it's duration.

KING ATTILA1 votes

This is True lol

Enraged Piglet1 votes

that would all be true if Tryndamere participated in 5v5 teamfights but he doesn't he just split pushes. and saying he does the same damage as an adc isn't exactly true because he gets a lot of free crit from his passive so he doesn't have to build as much crit to get 100% then he can focus everythign else on other stats to do more damage. Also unlike an adc who if caught out by say a zin chao will instantly die a tryndamere can ult and live and then do a lot of damage. Of course that doesn't really work in a 5v5 teamfight but tryndamere shouldn't be 5v5 teamfighting much. Though tryndamere isn't strong right now so it doesn't matter either way. But when splitpushers do become strong they become absolutely op because there's litterally almost no counter play whether it's jax/tryndamere/nasus if there strong there's not much you can do because even if you shut them down the instant you try and take your advantage and teamfight they will afk farm 20 minions and a turret and then become stronger then you. Then your screwed since he will always be pushed to your turret and you can't 1v1 him and you can't leave to teamfight. and sometimes even if you would win in a straight up 1v1 there kits are so slippery he can just push and then when you try to fight they leave then lifesteal and come back.

and that's why anytime a splitpusher becomes strong it becomes immediately noticeable and almost forces them to be nerfed. But tryndamere isn't strong right now so whatever you say about him being unfair doesn't really sway me to the opinion that he needs changed. In fact if tryndamere didn't have anything that could be said to be unfair he would be severely underpowered.

pripustas1 votes

Well obviously melee carries have better stats. That is a compensation for being a melee.

MLDzXnRRR9 votes

Trynda can get kited when he ults, if he doesn't take ghost... Nasus is more annoying pusher than Trynda

SpecterVonBaren10 votes

I think the issue he's talking about is the fact that turrets can't kite.

Best Darius KR3 votes

Yea, dealing with Tryndamere is so easy! Just give your boots to your tower and voyla!

Nuclear Panda2 votes

But you can never leave him alone. And if you send one up to stop him, he is just gonna walk over them and go straight for the turret.

Emperor Antares7 votes

If anything... Tryndamere needs a buff in League of Tanks. Its really hard to reach the backline and your team will lose a 4v5 teamfight most of the time. His itemization got nerfed severely through the years and turrets have been buffed and given shields. People need to learn to build heavy armor against him and will dominate in lane. I love playing against a Tryndamere because of how easy to handle he is.

Remlap12232 votes

Before Tryndamere can ever get buffed, his kit needs to be reworked. Like Jacknife said, having Tryndamere on the team basically Garentees the splitpush victory. With any of the other champions that are good at splitpushing Fiora Jax Jayce MasterYi Nasus Shaco Shen, they can either be shut down early game so that they can't splitpush effectively (ex Jax, Nasus, and Shen) or they can be killed with a proper champion (ex. CC heavy high burst champion on Yi or Fiora). Tryndamere's ultimate takes out all counterplay, and I mean ALL counterplay out of him. Not being able to die is the ultimate counter to everything. Literally unless you've got two champions with crowd control babysitting Tryndamere so he can't split push, he's either going to split push you to death, or roflstomp you with his disgusting damage without being able to die. After all, why bother building defense on Tryndamere when he can just press a key on a short cooldown to become completely immune to death?

Eihnlazer6 votes

The thing is, Trnd's ult is very thematic for his character and allows him to acctually be useful.

If he didnt have it, he'd never get played, as he is a melee damage dealer with only a slow and a dash. Im not sure what you expect him to swap it out with.

He is a raging barbarian king, who uses his fury and anger to empower himself on the battlefield. If you wanted to change his ult the only way you could do it is to make all damage dealt to him while it was active to just store up and apply when it was over so that he dies at the end of it, which would be very unfun for the person playing him.

3TWarrior5 votes

so no other champs can build item 3512 , put it in range of the turret, and take it down? also, if tryn uses his ult to break the tower or damage it, anyone with teleport can delete him for free gold if they can catch up to him

Bresn2 votes

Tryndamere + item 3512

Ulquiorra9955 votes

Tryndamere as a champion is unfair. Not just his ultimate. And he violates so many of Riot's balance philosophies that it's not even funny. Champions have been ruined or completely stripped of their identity for far less.

Where do we even begin?

Passive. Oh god, the passive. With how much Riot hates RNG it's a wonder how the hell is this still here. It's not fun in any situation. Early on, Tryndamere spins into your face, and from there you have 2 scenarios: 1.) He crits you 2 times. He just won his lane as you recalling because next time he will kill you - if you're not already dead. 2.) RNGesus does not look upon him and you will probably win the trade... unless he maxed W, but more on that later. Both of these scenarios are 100% reliant on RNG, and 0% on skill. There is no satisfaction for the losing side, no feeling that you got rightfully outplayed. No - either you got lucky or he got lucky.

Q Gives him AD based on missing HP. Not a big deal, you might say - but Karma got her entire kit, character and personality scrapped, with her passive being called out as one of big reasons. To quote Riot's opinion on that "Old Karma's passive felt extremely frustrating to play against - since she got stronger with low HP, you felt punished for playing well against her". And Tryndamere not only gets the same sort of invisible power, but also gets a 5 second window at 1 HP where he can abuse it at its strongest. Consistency is strong here.

W This ability is the definition of low counterplay, invisible power and many buzzwords Riot keeps throwing around. Slow is fine, but for the love of God, why the hell does it remove 80 AD in an AoE? Now, let's calculate that in gold value: 1 point of AD costs 36 gold. With a simple, unavoidable click of a button, Tryndamere removes 80x36 = 2880 GOLD VALUE IN AD from his target In team fights, it amounts to 14400 gold in lost stats. Lost to an unavoidable, instant AoE. Still not enough for you? Say Tryndamere maxes W first. Aatrox, for instance, has 82 base AD at level 9. After Trynd uses his W, he's left at, what? 2 base AD? That's more than 95% reduction. Ok, say he completed his damage item - BotrK. He now has AD of 27, not counting %HP effect. Mind you, Urgot's 15% reduction is considered extremely toxic by Riot.

This ability, by default, causes Trynd to effortlessly win against any AD-based champion. And here we come to another of Riot's favourite buzzwords - false choices. You know you can't fight him because he'll cut most of your AD, but you also can't run since he'll slow you and chase you down with his RNG-reseting gap closer.

E This ability is not bad by itself - but put RNGesus in the equation, and oh boy. He might jump on you, eat you alive with crits and immediately jump out... or jump in and remain stuck. 100% luck, 0% skill.

R Funny thing. This is actually the most balanced part of Tryndamere's kit. He can use it to fight or escape, rarely both and can be countered with a DoT. Frustrating, yes - but not as much as the rest.

TL;DR Tryndamere is a toxic mess of a champion that can't be salvaged by less than a full-on rework.

Bresn1 votes

Nasus infinite Q?

Abyssphere4 votes

{quoted}

Nasus infinite Q?

What has that got to do with literally anything he said?

Bresn1 votes

His talk about RNG Tryn vs linear-scaling Nasus (Could be exponential as he gets CDR and instant-minion Q)

Lugg4 votes

A couple seconds after he ults, just use summoner 14 .

Problem solved.

Summonerrr 14 votes

For the TL;DR, skip to the bottom.

As an Ex-Tryn main I can tell you with certainty that most of what you're saying is unfair are things that are easily mitigated by following the fundementals. For example, stuff like proper team comp (Having Hard CC and lockdown, disengage, etc), knowing how to poke or force ultimates, etc.

After I hit lv 30 and got out of bronze, I've seen tryndamere's viability go down significantly outside of a pub-stomping bruiser, simply because his ult makes him unkillable for 4 seconds. Seriously, that's really the only thing he's got going for him that NO ONE else does. He has subpar bruiser DPS (even with the best runes and items for it), no hard CC, ONE gapcloser/terrain cross, and a small AD steroid and non-chunk situational heal.

Playing as tryndamere made it fairly easy for me to see the drawbacks to his kit and playstyle and it's counterplay options, and you also seem to be forgetting they've nerfed his ultimate AND his splitpushing power since his release, and that the "small" meta changes during S4 and S5 away from bruiser/assassins towards mobile DPS and tanks has only made it harder for him.

The majority of tryndameres I see today are only a real team threat against bad comps, people who can't counter-itemize (AKA Armor), and people who let MULTIPLE lanes get pushed up. Every other tryn ever normally goes into a teamfight and has to pop ult during a dive to enable his team to toe with the enemy, then dies. OR, get's caught out, or goes ham and gets locked down, has to use ultimate, then succumbs to ignite damage or is out of the next fight until ult is back up, because if you don't have at least one ignite on a tryn that goes in with ultimate up, you're stupid, and If you go in without ult as tryn with enemy ignites up, you're also stupid.

There are multiple champs out there that does everything tryn does (and used to do) better, and have more going for them.

Okay, long rant done. The short one is this: Do you have any Idea what a slippery slope you're on? You don't like Tryn's ult. I get it. But if Riot listens to you and changes one champion's defining ability, what's there to stop them from redoing Blitzcrank's Rocket Grab, or Karthus's Requiem, or KogMaw's Icanthian Surprise based on someone not liking it? When Riot makes a champion, they're designed around a theme, and the abilities in that champion's kit reflect that theme. That theme does not get changed without a very, Very, VERRRRYY good reason, and unless the whole playerbase, the koreans, the pros, and Chuck Norris agrees on that reason, it likely won't get changed.

Hell, Cassiopeia , Soraka , and even Veigar 's ults didn't get changed even when their kits got MAJOR overhauls. Think about it.

Raptamei3 votes

We have come full circle. After Tryndamere was deemed useless and received no changes, he is now OP again!

Ps. Tyrael has a channelled 3 (4) second teamwide invulnerability AND cc immunity and it is considered a useless ult.

Spudo2 votes

Tryndamere is not difficult to deal with at all. 90% of the top laners smash him in lane. However if you have an issue with him spit pushing outside of lane, the just send nasus top. It essentially becomes free farm lane. Anytime tryndamere attempts any harass, you just wither him and walk away. You'll have 400 stacks by 20 minutes and tryndamere will lose a 1 v 1 to nasus at anytime because of wither. There you go, you now know how to stop a tryndamere split push.

RisenDarkKnight2 votes

Try playing against him in 3 v 3. If the game goes past 20 mins you lose unless the trynd is an idiot. He's hard enough to kill with 5 people ccing him and focusing him 3 peopel simply don't have the cc to handle him much less stop him from taking the weaker 3 v 3 towers.

Aboylova922 votes

I mean he get's kited to hell, and is extremely reliant on items to do anything. Can he be a bit annoying? Sure he CAN be, but just about any champion that's played well can be. How about Kayle whom can throw her ult on anyone and split push very well. While not popular right now, she's not exactly bad by any means. Nasus for me is in the same category but he get's WAY tankier than a tryn does. Both if left alone are going to punish you for it, even if they're behind, but they have plenty of ways of beating them in lane to help stop that.

LeDank2 votes

When tryndamere uses his ult just snare him so he doesnt move or so anything, then when the ult is off just beat his butt. Snare him with Morgana Lux Varus

A Miss Fortune2 votes

Tryndamere needs to be reworked, he's broken. And no not in the sense he's overpowered or underpowered, but he's at core one of the most broken champions in the game. It's because of his ultimate and passive that makes him ridiculously strong and they're so unnecessarily strong together while all of his other abilities just make him impossible to fight if he's fed.

pripustas2 votes

He's a melee carry. What do you expect his kit to look like? Yi has atk speed and speed+resets on his ult, fiora becomes untargetable jumping around dealing insane damage, trynda doesn't die for 5secs. Taking out his ult would be like applying 3sec root to any ranged carry after they aa/use skill. Everyone is fine with ranged carries dealing tons of damage while being protected and having insane safety all the time, but a melee carry with 5sec invincibility? OH NO! BETTER NERF!

TotalJerk2 votes

Dealing with Tryndamere ults 101:

Route 1:

  1. CC
  2. stay out of range
  3. Blow him up when it ends

Route 2:

  1. Count to 3
  2. Ignite him

Route 3

  1. Play a champion that can burst him down so fast that he has trouble gauging exactly when to ult

Route 4:

  1. If you are a backline carry, get Guardian Angel
  2. Stand behind your tanks and peelers, you should be doing this anyway.
Nuclear Panda1 votes

If he dashes or heals, 1&2 aren't effective.

TotalJerk1 votes

That heal is garbage, and ignite makes it even worse. It hardly does enough to keep him from dying to minions.

Lordofthepittt2 votes

He is not even remotely OP. He is pretty weak right now. For one, he is extremely vulnerable to CC. Two, thornmail screws him pretty hard. Thirdly, ignite kills him pretty easily if you do it at the right time. Splitpushing shouldn't be a problem, because if you force a teamfight while he is doing that, the enemy team is going to be down one player and weaker as a result. If you win that teamfight, take some towers and force him off of yours. If you lose that teamfight, then you either made a mistake as a team, or are too far behind to realistically come back and win anyway.

ShaftyMegee1 votes

He's good at whack in things, including single people anD towers

Only Play Darius1 votes

Splitpushing has been nerfed, and yet it is the only counter to the tank meta. Sounds like you just happened to encounter a good splitpusher, those players are hard to find these days.

FluffehPoro1 votes

Tyndamere's ult used to be worse. It use to be longer. It was scary... He never died.

GG Noob Team1 votes

This summoner 14

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

Trundle with just a BORK can take towers just as fast. He is also useless in teamfights, because of kiting, and relies on backdoors to do anything.

Saianna1 votes

Teemo is thee greatest counterpick for tryndamere. Blind obviously, he doesn't care about AD debuff, even if teemo looses poison and random mushroom will make trynda die. In late game trynda needs at least 2 hits to wreck teemo. While Teemo with lichbane and 500 AP ruins Tryynda even more.

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