Point of Ryze Remake?

PrinceArchie·Jul 18, 2016·19 votes·2,693 views

If it was to make playing against him more clear I feel that this was not done well at all. Why do I say this? He has a ton of power early, a lot more than I remember him having last rework, he also seemingly does not fall off. Give this man an item and he's a psuedo tankmage, all the health and spell vamp with a crap load of damage. How is it after 3 entire reworks he's managed to still be a problem every time around? He's already ban worthy and once pros start mastering him you will see how much of a mistake he is. Tone this man down.

65 Comments

MrBuffingtonJul 18, 201623 votes

The point was to make him balanceable. He's not going to be balanced right off the bat; every release has balance issues. He just needs some number nerfs; something not possible in past iterations since he was basically a stat stick.

Also, he no longer has spellvamp.

PrinceArchieJul 18, 20163 votes

All this work to make this one champion "balancable"? He's gone through 3 reworks for this sole reason. This most recent rework might have some more promise than the previous but to make him so blatantly strong off the bat just speaks to an unrelenting passion to keep this champion extremely relevant. He's still very much a stat stud as well.

RalanrJul 18, 201610 votes

Riot wants all champions to be easier to balance. That's why they've been reworking so many older champions as of late.

MrBuffingtonJul 18, 20169 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/yxyi4tzK-champion-updates-why-update-ryze-again

venomous frostJul 18, 201611 votes

aslong as his snare is point and click, he will never be balanced

RalanrJul 18, 20162 votes

It's such a fun ability too! Whenever someone is going in to be aggressive you're like, "Ah, ah, ah."

And then you blow them up. I swear if TLD didn't exist then his damage would be a lot weaker.

ArakadiaJul 18, 20161 votes

Your supposed to take storm raiders I thought?

RalanrJul 18, 20161 votes

I just assumed TLD because he's a combo caster and TLD is about chaining abilities together.

ArakadiaJul 19, 20161 votes

Maybe new Ryze is different but the reason you take Storm Raiders is because:

A) the mobility helps

B) DFT is good on DoT or champs who have super high stats like Jhin. Ryze likes tankyness and mana which doesn't affect DFT.

C) Thunder lords is good on champions who do super high damage combos like Syndra or Ryze but Ryze casts more but weaker spells then someone like Syndra. Also mana and tankyness don't affect TLD

Sona x RubickJul 18, 201614 votes

Funny how this is getting upvoted by people who have no clue in design/balance.

did you play against ryze? His snare has a terrible long cooldown that isn't reduced by something like before, when you it if you don't kill someone you just wasted your right now his problem is his safety in early game and how at lvl 3 he already has a decent waveclear His mana cost are low as fuck,Q mana cost should be increased and spellflux damage amp should be nerfed at lvl 1 from 40% to 20%

ArakadiaJul 18, 20161 votes

Not really.

Great FoxJul 18, 201610 votes

38.4% win ratio in Plat+ He sure is a monster!

Akali is SO HOTJul 19, 20161 votes

Low winrate doesn't mean he's aids to play against. Azir has a really low winrate but he's complete cancer to lane against especially if you're melee.

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 18, 20169 votes

To make him actually balanceable.

Old Ryze was entirely reliant on three things: Damage from mana, raw damage and a single CC spell. He brought next-to-nothing to the table for a team outside of being an unstoppable wall of blue stone. He also had deceptive survivability from free AoE spellvamp on top of a shield on top of all the tank/mana items that are in the game.

New Ryze, regardless of his state now, will overall deal less damage than old ryze and have to work more to do it. In addition, his ult provides utility and allows for him to have a reason to be picked other than "Wow god damn Ryze is the best DPS in the game and he's a tank while doing it". If he's too strong, they can nerf some damage and he'll still provide utility. If he's too weak, they can buff various parts of his kit instead of walking a balance tightrope with his damage.

Hyrum GraffJul 18, 20163 votes

{quoted}

To make him actually balanceable.

Old Ryze was entirely reliant on three things: Damage from mana, raw damage and a single CC spell.

You missed a thing: ping.

Old ryze's damage was measurably & significantly higher going from 2 to 50 ping. Thus made him difficult to balance between tournament play and live servers.

Sometimes champs are difficult to balance between pro and regular play for reasons of skill and coordination (like Rek'sai's tremor sense). In some ways this is OK; it just means that champion has a really steep mastery curve, and if you're willing to play with a team and put in the time to master the champ, it'll pay dividends.

Because Ryze's problem (well, that one) was a purely mechanical one, there's no way for normal players to ever access that power.

Chamuel85Jul 18, 20167 votes

Does he build item 3146 or from where does his spellvamp come? The 2% mastery?

RalanrJul 18, 20163 votes

Good question. Since spell vamp isn't a thing on items anymore.

PrinceArchieJul 18, 20162 votes

I guess it was from that mastery, handt noticed him getting any heals but he somehow can heal reasonably well in a sustained fight.

RalanrJul 18, 20162 votes

Did he have an item that uses Catalyst? That could be the reason.

PrinceArchieJul 18, 20161 votes

RoA

RalanrJul 18, 20162 votes

That was probably it.

JbelsJul 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I guess it was from that mastery, handt noticed him getting any heals but he somehow can heal reasonably well in a sustained fight.

Rod of Ages converts mana spent into healing

SpoofghoulJul 18, 20164 votes

you can grab 6% from quints and 2% from masteries thats 8% which isnt that bad

Its not very usefull on most mages but dps mages like ryze or cassiopeia can make very good use of it

Add in a ROA and suddenly you are healing quite alot in a sustained fight

especially ryze fucntions well this way since he has mana scalings he can just grab item 3027 item 3110 as his first items having the frozen hearth makes him pretty tanky and gaining mana when being hit makes being tanky rewarding, this is also where the healing and shielding he gets benefits from his tankiness becuase thats suddenly worth alot more too.

D3m37r1Jul 18, 20164 votes

I notice that no one mentioned how early game one combo takes up almost half his mana pool. Ryze w/o mana=sitting duck

ArakadiaJul 18, 20161 votes

Playing Ryze pre-lv3 is the WORST experience ever. I feel like if I was a Zilean who started W.

D3m37r1Jul 18, 20161 votes

I feel like that until i buy a item 3070

RalanrJul 18, 20163 votes

He's pretty squishy in my experience.

PrinceArchieJul 18, 20161 votes

He gets a big sheild from his Q, and when he goes RoA this can make for a VERY tanky mid laner in the early-mid game as no one can busrt him down of kill him in a sustained fight. You need multiple people, and add to the fact he does ALOT of damage. If you play him well he's too strong early-mid.

RalanrJul 18, 20163 votes

You see I get RoD, but I still get bursted easily if the enemy gets too close. Maybe it's cause I don't have his shield combo down, and I miss his Q a lot.

I'm not denying he's powerful. But as a tank main, he isn't very tanky imo.

PrinceArchieJul 18, 20161 votes

He's not a straight tank in terms of resistances, but in terms of effective health though the health he builds and the shielding he gets, then yea he's by definition tanky. He's able to soak a lot of damage and spell vamp a decent amount through mastery and Catalyst item. He's basically granted the freedom to take on any Squishy target at any point in the game, through straight damage and health.

RalanrJul 18, 20162 votes

My advice is to bait out his root. Once it's on cooldown, he's weaker because you can dodge his Q.

Oh and don't stand near fluxed minions.

PrinceArchieJul 18, 20161 votes

All sound advice but that advice doesnt make him balanced atm. He's too powerful early-mid when he shouldn't be which is my point of this thread and why I ask the point of his rework. Changing an ultimate stand alone doesnt take give a more clear way to gauge his power.

RalanrJul 18, 20162 votes

He'll probably get some nerfs. Though according to champion gg he's at a below 40% winrate in top and mid.

Which makes sense. He was just released.

Hyrum GraffJul 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

My advice is to bait out his root. Once it's on cooldown, he's weaker because you can dodge his Q.

Oh and don't stand near fluxed minions.

Problem is flux has a low cooldown and if you're outside your minions Ryze can snare you for the guaranteed Q and combo and won trade.

RalanrJul 18, 20164 votes

That's why you bait out his W.

I fought two Riven's in top lane yesterday. One went too aggressive and died to my burst combo three times before rage quitting. The second one actually feinted offense, making me waste my root and put TLD on cooldown. Then she all in'd me and killed me. She destroyed me in lane.

MinuanoJul 18, 20163 votes

He does not have a lot of power early lol

FatTacoJul 18, 20162 votes

He's not tanky, actually a lot more squishy than before because Mana isn't a good back up damage scale at all anymore (1% - 2% mana scaling O_o) which leaves Frozen Heart not a suitable choice anymore because yes you get 90 armor but the mana really doesn't improve your shield or damage that much so you go Zhonya which is 45 armor so gooooood. Magic Resist he can be a bit tanky but Abyssal is the only one he really wants so that's just 60 MR, I've went GA a few times when I'm super fed just to make players intimidated to focus me, those GA mind games are great. If you 1 v 2 Ryze and 1 of your 2 has CC it really screws Ryze especially in early game where he doesn't have much AP, Ryze has NO spellvamp in his kit or items so he can't heal himself back up fast at all anymore which makes him even more squishier because you can't refill health in a 1 v 1, 1 v 2 situation. I feel like the only thing Riot should touch right now without making him useless is reducing the early levels E into Q bonus damage so he can't clear waves as fast but for people who keep saying "He's good at every point in the game" that's not true, from all the things I've stated before unless you are fully fed off your ass and have 10/0/~ KDA he really isn't as broken as many are calling him out to be. Obviously in his current state if a player like Faker learns how to make him really good then yeah he can be abused in power but if Riot just simple tweaks some numbers next patch but not destroy what the new Ryze can do in lane completely like they always do then hes way more balanced than the previous rework in terms of fairness.

BlåbæretJul 18, 20161 votes

Ryze is very tanky. He doesn't even need more than 2-3 AP items to oneshot squishies anyway. Can build 50% tank.

ArakadiaJul 18, 20161 votes

Yeah I noticed. His mana scalings dont seem so great.

I suggest you break up that wall of text.

CasterGilgameshJul 18, 20162 votes

https://www.champion.gg/champion/Ryze/Top

i hope you know that ryz top is doing bad if he was flat out broken op even with high ban rates he would still have more then 50% win rate

Serpents EmbraceJul 18, 20162 votes

The difference between this iteration and the others seems to be a focus on teamwork, because of the ultimate.

But you're right in that there's a lack of clarity with him, even beyond when he spikes. His E is pretty much invisible, you just suddenly get the little debuff on you. His Q has absurdly long range for a mage that's always been considered to have short range. Additionally, he's always been touted as a combo mage but his Q alone does a hefty chunk of damage.

I think the major problem with him right now is his numbers. Tuning him down would make him a lot more reasonable. Maybe change his Q damage to scale with recent non-Q spell casts or something to promote him back to chaining his spells.

Alternatively, if they wanted to keep the numbers so high... take away his auto-targeting. Make E and maybe even W work like his Q does. That way there's at least pressure on him to hit them to justify the amount of damage he gets out of them.

PrinceArchieJul 18, 20161 votes

Yea redoing how his Q intereacts with the rest of his kit would be nice. HE has a lot of hidden power for those who play against him. HE just shoots out blue crap and dishes tons of damage, and he's also able to take his team for the ride. It's odd to play around him.

Serpents EmbraceJul 19, 20161 votes

The one thing I'll give him, though, he's not as bad as Irelia is right now.

They may both be able to just point and click to fuck something up - but Magic Resist works against him in whole. Even with armor Irelia's true damage will just shred through you. One game I was jungling Evelynn and he did 75% of my health with a single Q. Next time I saw him I had two MR items and he couldn't dent me.

Jungle Lux GodJul 18, 20162 votes

The difference between his last two reworks (I haven't been playing long enough to experience any reworks before that) and this current iteration is that old Ryze was simply a ball of stats and it wasn't always clear what to do as him or against him.

You would have tons of damage on your spell combo almost entirely on point-and-click abilities, be able to heal off of it due to the spell vamp on his ultimate, and you also had a mana shield to not die while sustaining up. His spells all had similar animations, leaving his opponents not entirely clear what spell Ryze was casting, while the combo he did wasn't always clear to players that hadn't mastered Ryze. As a result, Ryze was devastating in good hands but complete garbage for everyone else, and that made him impossible to balance.

The Ryze rework fixed these problems. All three of his basic abilities have distinct animations that makes Ryze's opponents know exactly which ability he is using and he has a large variety of combos that give rather specific output that newer Ryze players can understand. The variety of combos he has also turns his gameplay from optimizing a single combo to understanding which combo you need and when to execute on that combo due to the distinct strengths and weaknesses of each combo.

Is Ryze overpowered right now? Of course he is, but most reworks and releases don't come out balanced, and we wouldn't get reworks or releases if Riot tried to make them balanced on release. The important part of his rework is not that he is balanced but that he can be balanced in the future.

BeddlamJul 18, 20161 votes

On what do you base the assertion that he is overpowered? He has the lowest winrate at both top and mid. He is on the bottom half of all stats tracked on champion.gg, and in the bottom 20% of most. Just because you don't know how to play against him doesn't make him OP. Even experienced players are not getting to 50% winrate with him.

PrinceArchieJul 18, 20161 votes

He's an entirely different Ryze so "Experience" holds less weight and Im fairly certain as most you do not correlate experience with champion skill, but I'll let you state that for yourself rather than giving you an easy out. Also win rates hardly mean much. Taliyah had a low win rate for a while, Azir has always had lower win rates in lower elo with modest ones as you got more experience with him. Just because the win rate isnt near 60% doesnt mean the champion isnt strong, yet win rate is all you point to? Theres many reasons why people think he is strong and all you have to do is read the comments in this thread. Do me a favor, list 5 of those reasons without twisting them, literately quote them verbatim and then try to defend your win rate argument with some sense; because right now you look like an ass.

KarakotJul 18, 20161 votes

Persobally I believe it was just to put off the yorick rework. But whatever something about balance it is

ArakadiaJul 18, 20162 votes

Why would they want to put off the rework for Yorick?

They said, 1000 times now, that Ryze was first and that DID NOT hold up Yorick. If Ryze wasn't going to get reworked at all, then Yorick would still be launched to live at the same date if Ryze was going to get a rework.

Whiteeye AvelynJul 18, 20161 votes

They said yorick will be release after ryze and before warwick and due to the nature of his kit, so im guessing they want to make sure they won't have to go back and rework him again cause hes still bullshit