Riven does not need nerfs, she is not OP, and she is not problematic

Z Statistic··11 votes·1,194 views

While I am fully aware that there are weaknesses in my argument, I am sticking to it since there are weaknesses in any argument; nothing is perfect.

My first examination is her winrates across all levels of ranked play. Lolking's stats for Riven show that she has a steady winrate in the aggregate even within a small sample of 26 days. She has the second most stable winrate in bronze and then silver. Gold+, and especially in Master+, shows erratic behavior. Since Bronze + silver makes up roughly 80% of the playerbase and therefore gold+ makes up the remaining 20%, this suggests that spikes in her winrate are simply artifacts of randomness.

Artifacts of data happen very frequently. When we think of randomness in the long run, we tend to think of the uniform distribution PDF: a flat, horizontal line. This is indeed what we see in the aggregate but not in the top 20%. Her non exclusive pickrate from LolSkill is 18%, which is by no means small. It's enormous. However, since non-exclusive pickrates are never in a vacuum, we must consider that people are picking her for reasons (due to perception) outside of a perception that she is powerful.

If we look again at LoLSkill's matchup page for Riven top, we see that she has a biased spread of matchups. Out of 45 matchups recorded, 16 of them are unfavorable and 29 are favorable. Her winrate clearly shows that she is statistically more likely to win barring other information. However, we can also see that there are plenty of other tops people would agree as normal picks that beat Riven.

The perception of her power stems from the above, but she loses to top that are flat out better than her in overall winrates e.g. Heimerdinger (52.3%), Wukong (54.1%), and Tryndamere (53.4%) vs Riven's 50.8%. We can also rule out what I would call "conditional picking" due to her absurdly high pickrate of 18%. Conditional Picking would apply to champions who are picked in a very specific circumstance, which would skew the data as not being entirely independent, where picking a particular champion in ranked, such as Yorick, inherently suggests that there is something different about this game. However, if Riven is a conditional pick, she is being picked so much that her condition to do well is an accurate representation of the game as a whole. As such, we could still treat her being picked as independent of the situation as there is nothing special going on.

Therefore, I argue that Riven does not need the nerfbat due to performance. This is part 1.

Part 2 is nerfs due to her playstyle. Riven is a snowbally champion. ADC snowball, but their snowball mechanics require them to be in a very good position so they don't get blown up as well as being unreliable. 30% crit is unreliable, and attack speed isn't useful if you're constantly moving and unable to get off shots. Riven gets a reliable damage multiplication that depends on a single stat source as opposed to three. Thus, Riven's play tends to be unforgiving . Second, her multiplying stat not only gives her sustain but also burst durability in the form of her shield. Building pure AD on her, while unadvised, is most definitely more effective than full AD on Xin, Yi, or even Pantheon or Talon. It's more effective than Kha, and playing Riven who has snowballed is arguably more forgiving in nature than a Zed, Rengar, or Yasuo who is also fed. These three rely on skill mechanics (displacement, stealth, and a windwall) as opposed to simply getting survivability for being. Regardless of how easy you may think it is to pull off a decent ult as Zed, Rengar, or press W as Yasuo, Riven just has to press E, and she would still do it simply to move around and go places. The presence of Riven's shield changes little about her decision making when using E. There are few instances where you would give up the ability to move out of range in order to absorb a spell as Riven. They exist, but they are few as it compounds problems instead of just getting out of there.

Therefore, we combine these two pieces to get a champion who is unforgiving to play against and forgiving to play as to get Riven. The main problem with that conclusion is that she does not have a Certain(ly)ty in her zone control. That does not mean she is ineffective in it. It just means it's not as reliable as Malzahar's who can hit you with 4 spells within 0.5 seconds purely because 1 is area, 2 are targeted, and the third is ridiculously easy to hit when you are a sitting duck. All of Riven's spells are skillshots. She still has to aim her QER, and she can use W and not hit you. A solution to combat her would be to choose champions who have certainty in their zone control. The main weakness of these kinds of champions is their low range. Riven is melee, and so this doesn't apply. Another solution would be to simply outRiven Riven by choosing a champion who simply overwhelms people in durability, sustain, and early presence. One way to do that would be a mirror match, but another way would be to take the playstyle of Riven and find champion that have similar styles but are more certainty (e.g. Garen or Wukong, who both have certainty in their main way to get to a target and then followup with either Garen-teed damage or extremely easy to hit damage when in range.)

But those are tips of who to pick. Let's say you pick Pantheon vs Riven. Well, Riven statistically does well vs Pantheon. I played Pantheon religiously in Season 4, and played against a multitude of Rivens. The only real thing that was almost always hard was the game of chicken with my Q vs her E. Everything else was simply adjusting my playstyle to deal with a very snowbally champion and more about minimizing my mistakes than trying to get ahead. There are plenty of champions you can make mistakes against and be perfectly fine with virtually no change in chance of winning. Riven is not one of those champions.

So Riven is unfun to play against probably because she forces a burden onto other players instead of having the proverbial dance in lane. The main problem with nerfing her because of that is she is very one-dimensional in what she brings to the team. And that is ok. Riot is not reworking champions because everyone needs to have some minigame like Fiora or Skarner. They are reworking them because it's not fun for a lot of people to sum up 33% of the roster with "passive is free stats, Q is a nuke with light utility, W is some form of heavy utility damage, E is more focused on defense, and R is the 'nuke them to hell' button. W and E can be swapped if necessary." It's ok for a handful of champions to be like that, but not a huge portion.

So why leave Riven instead of say Garen? It's mostly on a case by case. In Garen's case it's because he's supposed to be the Noobtube of League. He should be very easy to play with a lot of effectiveness. Currently, he's not the latter. For Morde's case, Morde has historically been Yorick levels of unfun, so Riot wants to make him more viable while making him more fun to play as but more importantly to play against. But for the main reason why I think Riven should not be nerfed, she is the next step up from Garen. She gives more power than Garen and is more specialized, but is significantly harder to play. Let's be honest; a bad Riven is much less effective than a bad Garen.

So, for a Tl;DR, I'm sorry to say it like this but... git gud.

16 Comments

instalokpro4 votes

Found the riven main move along folks someone defending their braindead mongo champion. nothing to see here

redniwediS4 votes

You'll probably get a bunch of downvotes, and I don't agree with everything you've said, but just from the effort you've put into this you've more than earned my upvote.

Druella3 votes

DOwnvoted because you shouldn't defend cancer

O Fallen Scholar2 votes

She still prolly gets nerfs though. Why? Because the outcry is huge by the community. Even though Riot wont respond to these threads, they are aware. While I agree that her playstyle is snowbally and annoying to opponents, Riot might just nerf one skill to the ground and leave her to dust until they think it's fine to rework her.

360D3GR3SS2 votes

Winrate does not always dictate a champions power. Fiora's winrate is disgustingly low and she can win lane harder than riven. What makes riven so wierd is that she has a kit that scales well with high mobility AND fights extremely well and is very easy to use in lane (good trade potential hard to gank), but come late game she loses alot of her effectiveness because people fail to realize that the game is based on 5v5 not 1v1 (which riven does very well at). Also if you watch literally any streamers they have always complained about riven because she snowballs so effectively off of such small advantages and is able to easily turn 1 kill into multiple from her other lanes. A common complaint amoung high elo streamers is riven's ability to scale defensively with offense.

Best Darius KR2 votes

You're right, she doesn't need nerfs.

She needs a fucking rework

Nameless Voice2 votes

I mainly wish some of her power would be shifted away from abusing animation cancelling to be able to unleash her full combos in ridiculously small amounts of time.

She'd probably be weak if they removed animation cancelling, but then she'd be more balanceable and could be buffed in other areas without being as annoying to play against.

LilxPaprika1 votes

i think her late game is alright i find her early strong considering how safe she is a champion to play with.

Blade of Justic1 votes

I hate Riven, but I don't think she's OP.

I think that she leaves the opponent very little breathing room right from level 1 and will punish the smallest mistake.

If you let her get a kill, you're practically F@#$ed and you should farm under tower.

But...

If you manage to bully her enough, she's a running gag for the rest of the match.

She just needs a rework to fix her binary problems.

Z Statistic3 votes

Being binary isn't inherently bad. Some people like playing against binary champions (I do), and some people like playing as binary champions. The main way you would reduce her snowball would be to remove her passive and the bonus AD of her ult or to remove the shield on her E.

I imagine some people like to play with that kind of snowball potential, and that's great. Variety is the spice of life. Riven is not Yorick. She doesn't kill the game when she's got insane winrates.

O Fallen Scholar1 votes

{quoted}

Being binary isn't inherently bad. Some people like playing against binary champions (I do), and some people like playing as binary champions. The main way you would reduce her snowball would be to remove her passive and the bonus AD of her ult or to remove the shield on her E.

I imagine some people like to play with that kind of snowball potential, and that's great. Variety is the spice of life. Riven is not Yorick. She doesn't kill the game when she's got insane winrates.

That variety comes with the cost though. If you know what I mean. Therefore she isn't really a healthy champion in the League currently.

Z Statistic3 votes

I don't see how she is unhealthy. I see how she is frustrating, but that's not the same thing as unhealthy from where I stand. Let's use a more benign example: Dariu's Q. Vs melee restricted champions, he is a very hard matchup. Even melee with some ranged spells have some trouble with him. Purely ranged champions like Quinn can really just destroy him, especially one with mobility like Vayne or Ziggs. There's very little interaction between these camps because both are unconstrained by mana in this matchups. Making Darius more constrained by mana vs melee would allow more strategic options for the other player, but would reduce Darius' and a ranged champion's simultaneously in that matchup. For that reason, Dariu's Q is somewhat harmful to toplane.

That's a simplistic example, but if we go with Riven, despite what people may parrot, she does require some skill to use effectively, and she doesn't magically start out with her ult, full effectiveness of her passive, and a brutalizer. She has to get there. Both she and her opponent walk a tightrope, seeing who will fuck up first. A lot of people do not like that, but a non-ignorable portion of people do enjoy both playing as her and against her. In my opinion, the only compromise that can work is to do something that will lower her pickrate without lowering her winrate. But that's purely perception, and the only way to change perception is from the player level.

In otherwords, players need to stop parroting that she is faceroll OP.

The Whamboozler1 votes

Riven. OP? No. Healthy for the game? No. She's a super snowbally top that puts the entire burden of the game on how well YOU know how to play against her. She brutally punishes mistakes while being very forgiving herself. She's terrifying and strong in the hands of a very skilled player able to outplay you... AND she's terrifying and strong in low leveled play where the players don't understand how to keep her from snowballing against them. If you've played top lane more than once, you've likely faced a Riven... her pick rate is absurd. So she's one of the champs that top laners are most used to playing/facing and she still has an even winrate?

LeBlanc was nerfed despite a meager winrate because she was obnoxious the play against. Riven is obnoxious to play against. Against weak players her success rate at yolo-style aggression is strong... even if these players tend to do really dumb things, the sheer strength of Riven's early game is often enough to make up for bad choices. Her winrate being fairly normal is likely because of how unskilled these players are at taking advantage of leads, controlling the map well, focusing objectives, teamfighting, positioning and a host of other things. Most low leveled players who play a lot of top LOATHE Riven... or just play her. To green players, she encourages and rewards reckless, often stupid actions... and I'm not sold that a champ should be so successful if played brainlessly, even if that DOES only work against other poor players.

In high leveled play where the players are presumably very skilled.... she STILL has a very strong winrate. High leveled players can use Riven well... VERY well. And she's Riven, so if she gets a lead... she's scary. High leveled players are also very good at putting those leads to good use. In high leveled play it seems like Riven matches are decided VERY early, likely off of the first kill or the first person forced out of lane. While they may be FAR better at dealing with Riven, accounting for her still fairly average winrate, she's an oppressive, unforgiving force that ruins your entire game off of a single early mistake.

The reason I personally dislike Riven is just that. She's both strong at mindlessly facerolling against poor players AND at outmaneuvering and out-playing skilled players if you know how to use her well. She's very forgiving, but unforgiving to her opponent... and she's insanely snowbally. If she was harder to use in low tiers, or less able to outplay in high tiers... or just not able to decide the entire game off of first blood, she'd be fine. But she IS all those things, and that's not a healthy champion.

Z Statistic1 votes

But she does one thing: do damage. She can't exactly splitpush as she has no aa reset, doesn't build AS, and most of her potential AA damage requires an ult and a buff that isn't consumed on towers. She can't exactly peel very well because she telegraphs them very well and can still mess up, not to mention the duration of the cc to begin with is minuscule. Regardless of having a shield, she cannot siege whatsoever. She has sustain vs poke and can absorb ludicrous amounts of burst, but she also lacks the longterm durability other bruisers have.

So her strategy in pretty much every game is to bumrush the backline after an initiation when you are least likely to get cced. Pantheon can still initiate with his ult even if his peeling isn't great. Talon can can waveclear in semisafety. Riven has neither of those things. She has one job to do, and can only do one job.

Leblanc however can do multiple jobs. She can siege in some situations by virtue that her W travel speed is too fast for most people to aim and hit with single target cc. She can pick people off from a very safe range with her E, and by that same token can help the ADC and support kite the tank if needed. Leblanc really only has one option when trying to kill carries, and most of the time that's not viable, but she still has some options.

If you try to peel as Riven, you're not doing your job, not because you should peel as a diver. By all means, if you can save the ADC as Trynd by shouting at a tank that's running past you to slow them, do it. By Riven's cc is so short, it's not even a proper stun. It's more like a ministun. You don't use ministuns to peel. You can use them to catch if they are ranged, but she is not ranged.

Leblanc has some suboptimal choices, but Riven literally has only one choice. That one-dimensionality is what keeps her from being unhealthy.

Mr Broken Wings1 votes

She isnt problematic, its a silver circlejerk. Always remember that the guys who think that riven is op also think zed is overpowered and leblanc is freeelo. And these people want to make fizz ult hit himself. And this people think the darius rework will nerf him. This people here have NO idea of balancing and they just circlejerk each other into oblivion. Thats all. This place is complete shit for serious balance discussions and you should simply ignore 95% of the opinions here.

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