You know how we nerfed Zed because of the frustration factor in laning against him?

Miraweave·Jun 18, 2016·167 votes·9,115 views

Can we do the same thing to Yasuo please?

His lane pattern of "dash up wave -> knock you up and auto you once -> dash away while my shield soaks up any retaliation" is incredibly unfun to play against. Obviously there are some champions who just hardcounter him and he can't do anything, but that's not really good design either.

Basically, his E needs an actual cooldown at early levels, or it needs to do zero damage. This "hard counter me or lose" bullshit isn't remotely fun to deal with.

EDIT: To be clear, he's totally fine lategame. Assassins do what assassins do. The problem is that his laning phase is complete and utter bullshit to deal with if you don't hard counter him.

454 Comments

LankPantsJun 18, 2016103 votes

Here's an idea, stop making manaless AD champions with infinite waveclear. It's just frustrating to have an enemy champ clear wave after wave as a mage and OOM you, then the second you go back they destroy tower because it's so easy for them.

Velzard of KozJun 18, 20168 votes

While Yasuo's manabar got replaced by basically second passive

DeathBot666Jun 18, 201623 votes

Yasuo What Tryndamere Is Aatrox This DrMundo Mana Renekton You Rengar Speak Shyvana Of Garen ?

NB moneyJun 18, 20161 votes

IGotScuttleCrabsJun 18, 201660 votes

Yorick so forgotten people forgot his resource

NB moneyJun 18, 201610 votes

who?

CarbRundumJun 18, 20164 votes

Wait... What's a Yorick?

Ariel the CruelJun 18, 20168 votes

I think it has to do with image leak on the forums. New champion? Galio

It Hertz When IPJun 18, 20168 votes

No, that's Galium.

HighH1Jun 18, 20161 votes

plz don't bring that reddit meme here

Ariel the CruelJun 19, 20166 votes

I can't say where it started, because I don't use Reddit. But this has been a thing on the forums for months.

President Swa1nJun 18, 20163 votes

It's one of the new pokemon I think

iiIhNqTekaJun 19, 20163 votes

most mana champs can do the same like Annie Cassiopeia Kassadin Karthus Malzahar Lissandra TwistedFate Swain and some mages could have nomana+tanky+free sustain+strong poke+wave clear+free zhonyas like Vladimir My main <3

MazariamontiJun 19, 20162 votes

That's definitely not 'most'

TheOvermindJun 18, 201626 votes

Yasuo is basically flawed because he utterly annihilates anyone who can't keep up with his mobility in lane or has skillshots that is impossible to hit because he is constantly moving and also ww, and he also gets utterly dumpstered by a bunch of champions that have lock on abilities (Annie malzahar swain) or can keep up with him in terms of mobility ( fiora, irelia , akali, riven)
I didn't say this my 647k mastery diamond yasuo main friend did.

Covert Ops GnarJun 18, 20163 votes

That's called an assassin.

MonkeyMadnessJun 18, 201613 votes

But...he's not an assassin...like not at all...he's a melee ad carry, and with respect to this role he is an incredibly polarized champ. Either he utterly shits on his laning opponent through his incredible lane push, farm potential, and reasonably safe harass/all in combo, or he gets utterly shit on by a laner that can bypass his windwall and counters his mobility with either point and click or aoe cc or other big aoe spells that don't require aiming.

In my experience he either succeeds too well at his job or he fails miserably. This is the hallmark of a broken champion.

Jet SettJun 18, 20162 votes

He still has more utility than your average assassin (Yes he is an assassin, you literally described their feast or famine characteristic. Unless we're using those subclass names, then I suppose he's a skirmisher/light fighter) The utility keeps him useful to his team somewhat, and since he can teamfight well with them he has the chance to catch back up. Although I will admit, any hard counter that can destroy him in lane will make even his utility null and void if they keep him down long enough to the point where participating in teamfights makes him a liability.

MonkeyMadnessJun 18, 20167 votes

Definition of NOT an assassin. He has no all-in single target burst combo like talon or zed. He has a lot of multi target damage and a shitload of mobility that puts most conventional assassins to shame. In fact, I would argue that yasuo has more in-fight mobility than any other champ in the game (kassadin and kalista are the only champs that MIGHT compete with him, but they don't nearly have his damage potential, nor his cc). His damage is more along the lines of a true dps whereas assassins are defined by their heavy burst and the ease with which they can get to their targets. As mobile as yasuo is, he does have to weave his e through either minions or other champions to get to the back line (unless he can get off an ult with allied knock ups). He fills a very similar role to tryndamere, he just relies more on finesse and more utility instead of tankiness (from undying rage) and healing.

Jet SettJun 18, 20164 votes

Kalista is far more mobile than Yasuo, his mobility is tied to minions for the more outrageous moments but that isn't as consistent as her's. Also, Yasuo has enough burst to kill squishy targets relatively quickly, doesn't matter whether it's instant burst or high dps, if you kill quick and consistently, you're an assassin. Twitch and Tristana are labeled as assassins for the same reasons.

Now, this part has nothing to do with you specifically, this is just a general question; Are we back to the Yasuo "circlejerk" as it's called? He's not the most frustrating thing to go against mid lane, and he's not overpowered, so why are we back to this?

MonkeyMadnessJun 18, 201610 votes

Because hes been getting pretty oppressive in the top lane lately.

Also,

doesn't matter whether it's instant burst or high dps, if you kill quick and consistently, you're an assassin.

Annie Veigar #leagueofassassins While I agree that yasuo does have assassin-esque characteristics (as do trist and twitch) he's NOT a true assassin. He's a fighter (I would be more specific and call him a melee adc, as fighter seems a bit too non-specific) but still. True assassins are zed and talon and champs like that. High mobility and VERY single target oriented. The issue with yasuo is that he has assassin mobility and assassin damage WITHOUT the assassin target restrictions. He is effective against tanks, he is good at getting to the backline, and he can put down decent aoe damage AND rapidly switch targets mid fight. Assassins tend to be incredibly useless if their primary target manages to escape the initial burst. He's just too well rounded in the hands of a good player to be a fair fight.

And the feast or famine thing you mentioned earlier really isn't the same for yasuo. It's more "outplay or get outplayed". Now before you tell me that this is the case with literally any champ (which is correct) let me qualify it a bit. If you are getting outplayed by virtually any other champion, there are logic counter play styles/items that you can build to stop the bleeding. And if you are outplaying your enemy, they can play a certain way in order to counter you. With yasuo, you either crush your opponent relentlessly with 0 opportunity for counterplay, or you get crushed with 0 opportunity for counterplay. That is the true definition of a broken champion.

Jet SettJun 19, 201611 votes

Well I thank you for being civil the whole way through this conversation and apologize for my unruly attitude when attempting (and failing it seems) to retort. I can't really debate with the argument you've laid out, so it looks like you "win" so to speak. After reading all this I think I can agree, I guess not facing Yasuo in awhile made me forget how much I hated him. I literally bought Cho'gath and Malz to deal with him, I suppose I forgot about the horrors non-counters face, and sometimes even the counters if he's good.

Anyways, have a nice day MonkeyMadness, it was good to discuss this with you.

r4ndomkillJun 19, 20167 votes

wow a civilised end to a discussion .is this even the boards anymore.

SylverblitzJun 18, 201626 votes

I would offer two hard nerfs and they would kill him.

Knock-up immunity for 10 seconds after he last used it on you. For an ability that is available so often and with such a constant threat it should not be able to knock you up every single time it's available. The width of it is deceptive too because I have been hit numerous times when I see myself past it to the sides.
His shield cannot recharge if he has taken champion damage in the last 2 seconds and resets every time he takes champion damage before it fills up. Before people go "NO" to this it's worth pointing out that every time Aurelion Sol takes damage his long range dash counter resets to 0.

Considering he still has his near infinite dash, double crit, frequent knock-up and a walking shield something has to go. I know he can only dash through the same target once every X seconds but tell me, when was the last time you got away from a Yasuo in lane with minions around? I can't be the only one that is actually close to getting away and then a new minion wave from your side comes to aid his bullshittery.

Riot will never admit it but he cannot be balanced by number changes alone. He will either be OP or trash tier at all times with no middle ground. Hit his kit, I don't care if it changes his identity. Yasuo mains will care but I would think they would prefer a champion in a state where he can be played and his performance is based on skill instead of an abusive kit. I saw a brief bit of the LCS yesterday and I was pretty pissed at one of the players. In his interview he was saying that the nerfs to Ekko were too much! That is utter bullshit and he knows it. What he really meant was the nerfs to Ekko stopped him being super OP so they can't abuse him any more. Boofuckinghoo. Riot caters to these morons who play the current most OP picks so I would not be surprised to see Ekko buffed back up and permanently picked again soon.

AptestJun 18, 201618 votes

if you want to contest yasuo's laning pattern, reducing the speed of his dash, and the speed of the knock up q is the way to go.

this puts his laning knock up at risk of being side stepped.

ZT XperimentorJun 18, 201615 votes

Riot needs to make mobility actually have costs, either give him the shield or mobility, he shouldn't need both if he's any good.

Spizzle9000Jun 18, 20168 votes

Meanwhile, Riven has both in one spell and three other dashes with two forms of hard CC in her kit.

Hyrum GraffJun 18, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile, Riven has both in one spell and three other dashes with two forms of hard CC in her kit.

At least when you put damage on riven it sticks.

ZT XperimentorJun 18, 20161 votes

Agreed, with the mastery that gives lifesteal on every critical hit he's worse to burst down than most tanks.

Hyrum GraffJun 18, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sIJ70apm,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-18T20:00:25.747+0000)

Agreed, with the mastery that gives lifesteal on every critical hit he's worse to burst down than most tanks.

That was OLD warlord's bloodlust, and that mechanic was removed. The mastery now gives lifesteal based on how low you are, which is reduced vs minions.

The mastery that yasuo takes that makes his sustain in lane ridiculous is grasp of the undying, which just got nerfed this patch.

However, that's unrelated to why he's hard to burst down in fights. He's hard to burst down because he gets 100% crit from 2 items, which means he has way more item slots available to build defensively.

If any other champion sans tryndamere wants 100% crit, their build looks like this: item 3087 item 3046 item 3031 item 3508 , which means in your remaining 2 slots you need to choose between boots, armor pen, and a defensive item. Meaning you're either going to be squishy AF, slow AF, or do no damage to tanks (AF?). Oh, and they have no lifesteal.

Yasuo gets to build this: item 3087 item 3031 item 3111 item 3072 item 3156 item 3026 and get 100% crit, lifesteal, a maw and a GA, and still do a lot of damage to tanks thanks to his 50% bonus arpen on ult.

ZT XperimentorJun 18, 20161 votes

Those I'm already well aware of masteries & runes only being parts of it; but I agree it's more of how many items he gets to abuse as well.

Imperial JapanJun 19, 20163 votes

Many other champions can abuse items that synergises highly with them as well. Maybe not to the extreme aspect like of Yasuo's passive but that passive is what makes up Yasuo and allows him to be VIABLE.

ZT XperimentorJun 18, 20161 votes

Her dashes are only around 1/3 of his though; and she can't outright deny the vast majority of poke with a single spell. Seriously his windwall needs to be nerfed, it blocks way too much.

Spizzle9000Jun 18, 20163 votes

True, but her dashes don't require an enemy unit and don't have an on-target cd. I do understand why that's in place on Yasuo, but Riven's dashes allow her to hop away outside of lane far more easily than a Yasuo can without a minion wave.

I think perhaps Windwall's duration should be decreased at lower ranks, and it most certainly shouldn't block, say, an entire Nami or Talon ultimate. I think why it destroys Nami's ultimate if it barely touches his W is because it's coded as a single projectile, though.

There are certain spells which I think should be able to pass through Yasuo's W, though, for instance Vel'koz's Void Rift or Braum's ultimate. I mean, a wall blocking a bloody chasm is preposterous.

ShadòwJun 18, 201612 votes

Can fully agree.

Yasuo doesn't need nerfs, but adjusts against his frustration. The most annoying part is his shield imo. And his voice-over. Hasaki.

Michael SykesJun 18, 20164 votes

or seeing him almost every game

Imperial JapanJun 18, 20161 votes

I have not seen a single Yasuo player this whole month and possibly last month. Nor has my brother. (I'm in silver and he's in gold and all in all we cover high bronze to low play range.)

Michael SykesJun 18, 20161 votes

really. Is NA that much different or am I just unlucky?

Imperial JapanJun 18, 20161 votes

Checked your match history but you've only gone against one the past 10+ games :P

Michael SykesJun 19, 20161 votes

yeah could be xD Actually weren't some of the ARAMs? I did not play for a few days .__. I just remember a couple of games, was not a long time ago - maybe last week - when I had a Yasuo in literally every game

Lord GalvatronJun 18, 201610 votes

Yea the nerf that totally balanced Zed so we don't have to worry about banning him every game.

Shadows created by W - Living Shadow and R - Death Mark are now marked by a circular team indicator

https://houseofgeekery.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/jackie-chan-whut.jpg

BloodyTomponJun 18, 20166 votes

The thing I've always felt redundant on Yasuo was the E ramp up. That thing does a shit ton of damage for a 1 point wonder.

NuparuJun 18, 201632 votes

Yasuo players should be maxing E.

BloodyTomponJun 18, 20165 votes

DO they? I thought they'd max Q? You can tell I don't play him haha

Covert Ops GnarJun 18, 201621 votes

That's the problem with everybody's opinion about Yasuo. Nobody has ever played him they just complain "wow he killed me op"

Hyrum GraffJun 18, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Covert Ops Gnar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sIJ70apm,comment-id=0006000000000001,timestamp=2016-06-18T17:46:21.149+0000)

That's the problem with everybody's opinion about Yasuo. Nobody has ever played him they just complain "wow he killed me op"

This is why I've been picking up yasuo (on an alt account), so when I complain about him I can say that I've played him a lot and still think he's bullshit.

I'm 5 (or 6?) games in and ~~getting better~~ sucking less at him, and still think he's bullshit. There are times when I've gone SO deep that I should never be able to get out, but I'm just like "lol let me dash back through your wave and run to safety with my ridiculously high base MS."

VasilisGreenJun 19, 20161 votes

345 is not high base ms. It's basicaly a juggernaut base ms.

Dar RaksadaJun 19, 20163 votes

345 is pretty high when there's no champs with more than 350-355 base ms, while there are plenty of champs with 325-335 base ms. It's in the high end of the spectrum.

VasilisGreenJun 19, 20161 votes

he used to be 350.

Hyrum GraffJun 19, 20163 votes

He used to be the 2nd highest in the game. Now he's still on the hough end of the spectrum. Point stands.