Just destroy tank ekko please

Miraweave·May 11, 2016·338 votes·11,895 views

I get that riot wants to support a variety of builds and that's really cool on the champions it works on.

Ekko is not one of them. Tank ekko just removes most of his actual weaknesses and isn't remotely fun to play against. Riot's tried to nerf it in a way that keeps it viable, and the result is that it's still his best build and it's still stupid to play against.

At some point you have to just prioritize fixing the problem over leaving the offbuild viable. Just bite the bullet and make it so that tank ekko isn't even remotely viable, and then buff his AP playstyle if it's too weak.

251 Comments

Nickfer2510May 11, 201625 votes

The problem is that Riot is only nerfing tank Ekko's damage, but that's not the only issue with him. His utility is off the charts, which isn't an issue against ap Ekko since he's squishy. However, on a tank Ekko, he can just apply his cc to everyone on the enemy team while dealing damage, and his utility and tankiness gives him plenty of safety both in lane and in teamfights. This is what Riot should be focused on when balancing tank Ekko: MAKE HIS CC SCALE WITH AP

MrryZMay 11, 20162 votes

Actually, this idea is pretty good.

ChaoticPineconeMay 11, 20162 votes

Food for thought:

If all he has is his immense utility without any (burst) damage, what does Ekko provide? A stun, some slows, a self heal to stay alive, and dive potential.

Yes, Ekko can "just apply his cc to everyone on the enemy team while dealing damage." Doesnt Nautilus, Sejuani, Malphite, and Amumu do the exact same thing?

MiraweaveMay 11, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Food for thought:

If all he has is his immense utility without any (burst) damage, what does Ekko provide? A stun, some slows, a self heal to stay alive, and dive potential.

Yes, Ekko can "just apply his cc to everyone on the enemy team while dealing damage." Doesnt Nautilus, Sejuani, Malphite, and Amumu do the exact same thing?

The difference is that ekko does more damage than most of those champions and can get to and stick to a priority target much better because of the low cooldown on his E.

You can kite an amumu. You can't really kite a halfway competent ekko.

AtanchanMay 11, 20162 votes

I'm almost certain Amumu and Sejuani deal more damage than tank Ekko, between having %health damage and either actually having relevant scalings or built-in resistance shred, plus just plain having comparable or better bases.

Though the point of being able to kite either of them, especially Amumu, far better than you can Ekko is a good point. Although in terms of reliably, Ekko loses a lot of damage because if you're trying to kite Ekko, chances are he can't ult for damage and whoops there goes most of his damage output.

Hell, I just checked Malphite. He seems to have a similar level of damage, but more reliable outside of his attack steroid, and trying to kite a Malphite with IBG is a pain between the proc and the reduced cooldown Q. And suddenly his W steroid is more reliable than Ekko R.

M Dragon14May 12, 20163 votes

Not even close. The bases may be comparable, but the CD's are not.

RequiemsfireMay 13, 20161 votes

Thing is none of them have high amounts of mobility and escapes, that once they dedicate themselves they have to go in. Furthermore if you escape or avoid the initial skill shot (Nautilus and Ammumu) then they can't really go in. Some of those are also prone to counter junglers since Ammumu and Sejuani are often picked jungle.

I'm not gonna comment on whether or not Nautilus is balanced but I can say that all of those champions have weaknesses that Ekko doesn't have. To reach you it's a point and click. He can throw an AOE field which can slow you and stun you if you wait long enough while granting him a shield, an ult to escape a skirmish and a slow with a MS steroid as a passive. To top it all off his abilities are spammable.

ChaoticPineconeMay 13, 20161 votes

Other champions have weaknesses that Ekko doesnt have, but Ekko has weaknesses they dont have. Ekko doesnt have the immediate tankiness, reliable hard CC, or the AoE of the other champions. Other champions dont have to predict a 3-second casttime for their only form of hard CC. Other champions dont use their only strong burst spell defensively because its so unreliable to use offensively.

RequiemsfireMay 13, 20161 votes

You don't exactly need the hard CC or to be tankier than other tanks to win. Ekko wins as a tank simply because even if you have a bigger buffer tank than Ekko, you don't exactly have to out trade that tank. You can very well target squishies and out trade them easily and stick to them if they survive because of what's in his kit.

Some tanks don't even have hard CC and just simply have high damage in their kit like Garen with some mobility. You see other tanks if they go in with their initiation they generally do not have an escape take malphite and nautilus for example. Ekko's is strong but it's better to be used in those very sticky situations because his other abilities are very spammable.

TerchioMay 11, 20162 votes

So, Tank Ekko has damage, utility, and tankiness. While not totally inaccurate, there is a good reason to build AP already, that being damage and heal/shield (or tankiness). In fact, here's a rundown of his AP ratios:

Passive (80% damage per 3 hits) Q out (10% damage) Q in (60% damage) W passive (3% damage in %HP when below 40% HP) W shield (150% shield) E damage (40% damage) R damage (130% damage) R heal (6.6% heal, in %HP)

And with all of that, you want to pad his AP scaling more? That's 150% AP in shield, and 6.6% AP in %HP heal. That in itself is pretty darn tanky, if done right (obviously). And damage Tank Ekko has damage, but clearly AP Ekko has the advantage on that. Utility is just there, and not necessarily hard to land with both builds having some forms of tankiness. I wouldn't say either build is truly lacking in any of the 3 areas.

Ekko's tank build does make applying his kit incredibly simple and risk-free, basically never having to worry about his tankiness between his build and his extreme utility, and still applying fair damage, particularly if you can power down HPs below 40%. However, AP Ekko gets remnances of that tankiness while absolutely killing it with damage.

So, where does this AP ratio proposal go wrong? Well, right now, Tank Ekko trades off damage for tankiness, and gets reliable utility out of it, whereas AP Ekko makes essentially the exact opposite trade (less tankiness and utility, more damage). If his utility were sapped in the tank build, his only advantage would be the tankiness, as the reliability of applying his utility would be scratched by the power of utility in AP Ekko. So, Tank Ekko would trade damage for basically nothing, and AP Ekko would really trade about nothing for high damage and higher powered utility. Right now, Ekko has 2 sharply different modes of play, and shifting utility to AP would only combine the 2 into an even more OP frenzy.

Stop trying to buff AP Ekko. He's not necessarily overly OP (questionable), but he's definitely holding his own. What needs to change is this assumption that Ekko's utility needs to be as game-breaking as it is. He has an extremely powerful assassin-type ultimate, and a second skill that basically functions like a typical AoE utility champion's ultimate (W), and both work just fine as is without any investment either way. Those two need clear paths to take, and the answer to both should not be AP.

And keep in mind, his "2 ultimates" only take into account 3 of his AP ratios, only 1 of which an actual damage ratio. There are still 5 more AP damage ratios that have nothing to do with his two quasi-ultimates. While those 2 are heavy factors in his kit, he still has plenty else to work with.

TL;DR: Don't give Ekko 9-10 AP ratios before he even gets a Lich Bane/Luden's Echo.

LankPantsMay 11, 201620 votes

Ekko's just a terribly designed champion, you can't give an assassin that much CC and expect him not to build tank. As long as Ekko's CC is as strong as it is currently he's always going to be built tank if he's viable.

CullMeMaybeMay 11, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Ekko's just a terribly designed champion, you can't give an assassin that much CC and expect him not to build tank. As long as Ekko's CC is as strong as it is currently he's always going to be built tank if he's viable.

Ekko's stun is not really reliable. His cc mostly comes from his slow. I believe they should decrease his slow because he already gets passive move speed after 3 attacks on a target.

Crazy ChatterMay 11, 20169 votes

You probably just lost a game to one and came here to complain. First of all, it's called bein creative. Idk who made the build, but they use more brains than the ones who rage here. Also, it's only popular since the pros used it. However, it is literally just a tank with super high survivability. While I admit it is hard to fight, ekko's early game sucks, so if you are skilled enough, you can shut him down. Heck, even a Teemo could do it. If ya don't feed him, tankko will literally become useless. IMO, ap ekko is amazing early, for me atleast, and midgame, so I totally prefer him.

Nanuk PihoqahiakMay 11, 201671 votes

It's not a matter of shutting him down. He will get a degree of tankiness as the game goes on. The biggest problem is that he has the playstyle of an assassin with the utility of a support that ends up building tank.

Crazy ChatterMay 11, 20166 votes

I agree. The only way to destroy a tankko is to utterly crush him before late game. However, he has already been nerfed a lot. That ult did much more before. Still, even if he is somewhat broken, he doesn't deserve to be destroyed. Ya still need to play well. Ekko feeds easily cause most in lower leagues can't deal with him properly. They don't notice the little things, like how his shadow moves when using w. The best advice for ya is to just use your adv over him to rek him. And I stand by my words that teemo can rek him in lane.

Nanuk PihoqahiakMay 11, 20169 votes

IMO, he needs his base stats adjusted to better accentuate the fact that he's supposed to be an assassin. Rework his base health, armor and magic resistance. From there, he should also have his utility evaluated. He has what, two slows, a stun, two blinks and a shield?

I personally find that absurd for a character that's supposed to pick off targets. The slows he provides are both 60 percent, which is also on the higher end of the spectrum. Perhaps start by dropping them to 30-40 percent. Maybe even remove the slow from his passive entirely. It doesn't make sense that he not only gets additional damage, but is also rewarded with a slow that further cements his ability to stick to a target, IN ADDITION to boosting his movement speed massively. They don't even get the option to juke his Q, which guess what? - has another slow.

dark100dark100May 11, 20169 votes

Overloaded kit. I think that the passive needs to be reworked to be assassin like: no slow, no ms, just some kind of damage. AP based critical strike perhaps? Suits for an assassin.

MrryZMay 11, 20162 votes

But his entire concept is to be a utility assassin. He doesnt deal as much damage reliably as real assassins but makes up for it with his utility, right now his slow values are too strong and allows him to set his team up too easily also the way people talk about him it sounds like they think his w is easy to land, Ekko might seem strong if he initiates a fight because he can control zones well but defensively all he really has is his ult and op slow.

TheTrueQuarianMay 11, 201610 votes

"Utility" "Assassin" Pick One

AtanchanMay 11, 20162 votes

I think it's perfectly possible to pick two, you just have to make sure you mix them together properly.

Which is to say, something that gets into the backline easy and disrupts the hell out of them but is vulnerable and reliant on the frontline being distracted unless fed to one-shot levels. Or something that is constantly flowing through a fight, buffing their allies while debuffing their enemies. Or something that's basically an Anivia, Zyra, or Orianna that trades in range for mobility.

Just because there's one obnoxious example of this combination doesn't mean it can't work. A lot of mages have both damage and utility, and they still work out perfectly fine despite getting all that and range too.

Ferus and FerrumMay 13, 20161 votes

I think a fair trade off would be to give his slows and stun a base value, and, similar to lulu whimsy, have them scale up with AP. I'm not for the "gut ekko" crowd but at the same time a 2.25 second stun that you dont really have to rank up is a bit much. Most other champions' CCs scale with level. Even swain was brought into line very recently with his w.

AtanchanMay 13, 20161 votes

Main thing is that people feel like this'll either cause two things to happen: you'll either cause AP Ekko to have insufferable amounts of both utility and damage, or you'll just end up gutting Ekko anyway because his early game is pretty bad even as tank Ekko and you've basically got yourself a dead champion.

And, honestly, I see those both far more likely results than Ekko being put into a healthy spot.

LovelleMay 11, 20168 votes

{quoted}

But his entire concept is to be a utility assassin. He doesnt deal as much damage reliably as real assassins but makes up for it with his utility, right now his slow values are too strong and allows him to set his team up too easily also the way people talk about him it sounds like they think his w is easy to land, Ekko might seem strong if he initiates a fight because he can control zones well but defensively all he really has is his ult and op slow.

A utility assassin is a broken concept in a game like this. You just end up with a champion that is viable in nearly every scenario. This wouldn't be a problem if the rest of the roster also had an even balance of damage, utility, and survivability. However, most champions have to give something up in order to excel at one of them.

AFK PushMay 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Overloaded kit. I think that the passive needs to be reworked to be assassin like: no slow, no ms, just some kind of damage. AP based critical strike perhaps? Suits for an assassin.

The problem is that the slow and ms buff suits him lorewise with being able to speed up and slow time. I'm not saying I support that, but that was what Riot had going through their heads when they put it in.

dark100dark100May 13, 20161 votes

Perhaps double attack? That fits accelerating time. The extra attack uses AP not AD, since he is AP.

tooomineMay 12, 20162 votes

another option: increase his Cooldowns.

many of the early champs don't have super overloaded kits like his, but they have low cooldowns on abilities to compensate.

ekko's timewinder is like, 8 second at rank 5? I dunno. its bonkers.

BeatzBoyFTWMay 11, 201652 votes

The only way to destroy a tankko is to utterly crush him before late game.

This sounds like a tip for every champions ever.

However, he has already been nerfed a lot.

His AP ratio got buffed after the base damage nerf. How about people start building AP on him instead of Sunfire if they really wanted that damage?

Ekko feeds easily cause most in lower leagues can't deal with him properly.

Ekko has 52% winrate & 19% playrate even in Diamond, so your statement doesn't support at all.

Crazy ChatterMay 11, 20164 votes

People stick to sunfire due to the survivability and tankko is easier imo. Also, my statement said that lower leagues can't deal with him. In higher leagues, he can win, but won't be as op as he is in the lower leagues. Still, he is god tier right now, so it's obvious they would play him.

TonyTonyMordecaiMay 11, 20164 votes

Had a Yasuo with exhaust and the wrong masteries against tank Ekko top yesterday. Completely destroyed him.

AkunaitsuMay 11, 201631 votes

{quoted}

Had a Yasuo with exhaust and the wrong masteries against tank Ekko top yesterday. Completely destroyed him.

Yasuo can have wrong masteries?

ShonjlMay 12, 20162 votes

Its Yasuo though, he can have no masteries or smns and still do well if the player isnt braindead.

Hell ive seen people literally only build 2 items on him and left his other 4 slots empty and he still put in work against full build people.

TonyTonyMordecaiMay 12, 20162 votes

that sounds pretty cool to watch, but at the same time you're questioning how it's working

DarkinlegendMay 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

This sounds like a tip for every champions ever.

His AP ratio got buffed after the base damage nerf. How about people start building AP on him instead of Sunfire if they really wanted that damage?

Ekko has 52% winrate & 19% playrate even in Diamond, so your statement doesn't support at all.

STFU. Any champion that literally has the best of all worlds--Tanky, Tons of Damage, Tons of Moblity, Untargetable....is just bullshit. The fact that you are defending it is nonsense. Grow some sense you Kool Aid drinking drone.

Troll for TrumpMay 12, 20165 votes

And that's why people don't believe the credibility of people that complain about champs... THIS kind of stuff.

Faceroll TacticsMay 11, 201616 votes

"most in lower leagues can't deal with him properly."

Ekko in MSI (a professional tournament where every competer is challenger+)

80% win rate, 83% pick ban rate.

Looks like the best players among us can't deal with him properly either.

ChaoticPineconeMay 11, 201616 votes

Its funny how much people want to agree with what they believe in, whether its true or not.

http://lol.gamepedia.com/2016_Mid-Season_Invitational/Champion_Statistics

Ekko: 11/26 wins. 42% winrate. 93% pick/ban rate. 2 bans

Your stats are closer for Alistar. 89% winrate, 83% pick/ban. In a professional tournament where every competitor is challenger+, they have more trouble dealing with Alistar than Ekko.

And realize that teams ban out the champions they dont want to face. From my recollection, a lot of teams banned Maokai and opted into the Ekko v Poppy matchup. Maokai's 17 bans show that teams would rather let the enemy to pick Ekko and deal with it in game than let them pick Maokai.

Faceroll TacticsMay 11, 20163 votes

Well if this is the case I was using outdated data, and I'm sorry.

HarrisonOwnsMay 11, 20169 votes

93% pick/ban rate is more important than the winrate. FOR ONE LANE (he did go mid like once)

He also has THIRD most kills next to Lucian, and then Graves at first, while building pure tank. This is trash, and so is anyone who defends this like it's healthy for the state of the game.

An assassin, with too much mobility, utility, survivability, and damage; all while building tank. Your poor attempt at skewing statistics based on one metric failed.

ChaoticPineconeMay 12, 20164 votes

I hardly think its "skewing" when I was responding to a post that said Ekko's winrate was at 80%, when it really is at 42%. How is it based on one metric when I included the total number of picks, the number of wins, the pick/ban rate, and the ban rate?

How is 93% pick/ban more important than winrate? You dont explain this point very clearly. You dont explain why only 2 games saw Ekko bans but Maokai was banned 17 times. Poppy has a 80% pick/ban rate with a 59% winrate over 22 games. Shouldnt we be comparing top laners to top laners?

Ekko might have the third most kills, but what about kills per game or KDA? Dont you think about looking at the total number of kills in isolation is skewing the numbers?

Look at an extreme example: Ekko has a total of 70 kills and Jhin has 8. But Ekkos been played in 26 games and Jhin has been played in 1. Hardly seems fair to aggregate the total number of kills over 26 games and compare it to champions with more kills but in less games, dont you think?

Look at the KDA of toplaners. The most popular 3 are Ekko, Poppy and Maokai (we see a significant dropoff in pick/ban rate after that). Ekko sits at 3.07 KDA, Poppy sits at 3.31, and Maokai sits at 4.04.

LovelleMay 11, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nanuk Pihoqahiak,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QlkVLEkE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-05-11T12:09:15.440+0000)

It's not a matter of shutting him down. He will get a degree of tankiness as the game goes on. The biggest problem is that he has the playstyle of an assassin with the utility of a support that ends up building tank.

This. As long as he has as much utility as he does, his build-pathing will remain flexible, regardless of how much they hit his ratios.

AutomatisMay 11, 20167 votes

I'm so sad tank ekko is a legit problem. That was the first thing I thought of when I played him. "Hey let's make this fresh and hipster, I'll go tank jungle Ekko so I can dive for days".

Turned out I'm not a godlike Ekko, its just OP. :(

Steel BlossomMay 11, 20166 votes

Tankko isn't the problem. The problem is Riot making it way too hard for dive-oriented champions to oneshot high-priority targets. Maybe if Ekko was near as reliable as Rengar , then people would actually building AP on him. If you can't stay alive long enough to land jack shit because all your spells are telegraphed to hell, why NOT build tank? It doesn't even matter if he has any utility, really. If you're ANYONE champion with such unreliable damage, would you rather build glass cannon, not land anything, and die in half a second, or would you build tanky so you can at least soak up some CDs from the enemy before you miss every spell and go down?

DryditchMay 11, 20164 votes

Meanwhile, Sion gets fucked by anyone with half a brain. "hurr durr, look at this shiny outline on the ground. Let's all stand in it like retards!"

HyperiönMay 11, 20161 votes

There would be no way of destroying tank ekko, without making the champion completely useless and remove his AA Passive

SirsirMay 11, 20166 votes

Yes there is. Gut (and I do mean ANNHIALATE) his bases and make them scale with AP.

HyperiönMay 11, 20163 votes

Okay, and then you have every 3rd auto attack doing 1k damage. would you rather have that, or someone who is just hard to kill.

TheGreatNinxMay 11, 20161 votes

Here how to make Tank Ekko Go away, Remove the heal from the ult

Terra BoomaMay 11, 20169 votes

That heal is pretty vital on AP Ekko though, when your not tanky your heal and your W shield is all you got.

TheGreatNinxMay 11, 20161 votes

But should an Ekko player rely on that heal regardless of what way he is play Ekko? I feel like an ekko player shouldn't be relying on a heal to save them rather then his ability to set up, and dealing a devastating AoE damage in team fights.

AbyssphereMay 11, 20164 votes

{quoted}

But should an Ekko player rely on that heal regardless of what way he is play Ekko? I feel like an ekko player shouldn't be relying on a heal to save them rather then his ability to set up, and dealing a devastating AoE damage in team fights.

Yes, because what AP Ekko needs is to be MORE impractical. Clearly the difficulty in actually doing well with AP Ekko is not the reason tank Ekko has came into existence.