Why does Miss Fortune's W offer no "safety net"?

darkdill·Aug 29, 2015·59 votes·7,945 views

When you try to use Impure Shots for Strut while being attacked, you basically lose it immediately again afterwards. Pretty weaksauce.

Why is there no safety net like Teemo's Move Quick?

68 Comments

RiotRiot ScruffyAug 29, 201563 votes

IMO I'd rather see unique MF things like a relevant scaling ult make her strong instead of giving her better escaping which would homogenize her towards the other marksmen.

Agree/Disagree?

jjookkeerrAug 29, 20153 votes

just make impure shots do physical damage

IcyPepperAug 29, 20153 votes

Miss Fortune is a lane bully, giving her mixed damage from building one stat makes it more difficult to counterbuild against her early, while late-game she doesn't benefit as much from Last Whisper as stronger scaling AD carries do.

It's a tradeoff.

The LovelessAug 30, 20151 votes

No one is building armor early in bot lane. Supports commonly go for sightstone or upgrading their gold generating item.

IcyPepperAug 30, 20151 votes

ADC's still get armor per level, but no magic resist per level.

shrugs

I will admit that Miss Fortune's ultimate is pretty lacking. I can understand impure shots dealing magic damage (as does Gnar's second passive) since it would be just adding attack damage on top of autoattacks like Draven does, but without catching axes. Or maybe her base AD would be nerfed as compensation, giving her stronger autos with AD built? But I wouldn't mind her ult changing so it scales off AD a little better, dealing AD scaling physical damage as opposed to AD scaling magic damage... with AP scaling physical damage.

Blegh. This is why I'm in engineering, not game balance.

5000000000000000Aug 29, 201515 votes

People generally consider this to be a given, I think. A lot of people complain about her ult doing no damage (or less damage than AA, whichever), and you guys admitted the issue.

And isn't she supposed to be a run-and-gun, rather than an immobile artillery?

xxxMadLionxxxAug 29, 20158 votes

Lucian is in the same boat in terms of his ult.

Leu07Aug 29, 20158 votes

lucian ult have a great scaling o,o

TacoTheKittenAug 30, 20151 votes

full as lucian ulti... IMA FIRIN MAH LAZOR

Rinky DinkyAug 30, 20151 votes

Lucians ult is great what

DorkunedAurasAug 30, 20152 votes

I agree here. MF should get something on her ult (I have no idea what) that helps her do the I have a lot of MS from my passive so I'm kiting you to death and stacking up more damage from my W so you're dying thing not the I stood far away and clicked R on your whole team so they're dead now thing.

BakedLotionAug 29, 20155 votes

{quoted}

IMO I'd rather see unique MF things like a relevant scaling ult make her strong instead of giving her better escaping which would homogenize her towards the other marksmen.

Agree/Disagree?

It's not that... She's known for being a chaser/hunter right? You also mentioned that she should be a run and gun marksman. So why does she immediately lose her chasing power by hitting someone? minions immediately aggro to you and you automatically lose the strut. It's so useless in fights and it's only useful for running back to lane.

CrazedPorcupineAug 29, 20153 votes

I want MF to be the AoE DoT marksman. I want her AoE Damage Emphasized by supporting good combo of her R and E.

Make it so that when you R into E, the E lasts until R is over. Amp up the damage on her Ult by changing the scaling to a .2/.3/.4 total AD Ratio per wave on her ult, so that she actually scales like an Actual ADC (Ashe and Trist can get away with AP scaling on their ults because of the massive utility those abilities offer. MF's ult is only damage)

UrPalAlAug 29, 20154 votes

{quoted}

IMO I'd rather see unique MF things like a relevant scaling ult make her strong instead of giving her better escaping which would homogenize her towards the other marksmen.

Agree/Disagree?

Agree.

AbyssphereAug 29, 20155 votes

{quoted}

IMO I'd rather see unique MF things like a relevant scaling ult make her strong instead of giving her better escaping which would homogenize her towards the other marksmen.

Agree/Disagree?

I think everyone would prefer to have a more relevant ult, but it's still worth questioning what the point of W activating Strut is when it feels like 90% of the time you lose it immediately after. I don't think Miss Fortune should become a "mobility ADC" like every popular ADC seems to be now, but I think if "activate this ability to gain mobility" is a thing in her kit, it should work. Otherwise you have something taking up power budget that does not feel at all satisfying.

darkdillAug 29, 20157 votes

Even if a safety net were given to MF, it wouldn't make her very good at escaping. Slows and other CC's would still nail her, and it's not as though Strut is a dash, which is MUCH safer than a modest MS bonus.

The issue is that the "reactivate Strut" effect of Impure Shots never feels like it does anything when it should actually matter. Oftentimes, when you reactivate Strut, it just gets knocked out again in less than half a second. Because of this, MF simply can't reposition unless she Flashes.

I understand you wouldn't want to homogenize her, but this would not really make her very good at running away. It'd just give her a bit of ability to run, especially if said safety net only lasts, say, 1 second.

CalhendrenAug 30, 20152 votes

Currently her W Strut reactivation is a shittier version of Draven's W, in that he can reactivate it as long as he catches an axe.

I wouldn't ask to make it resettable, but at least make it so that DoTs can't disable the effect for like 2 secs.

NapaImAug 29, 20152 votes

{quoted}

IMO I'd rather see unique MF things like a relevant scaling ult make her strong instead of giving her better escaping which would homogenize her towards the other marksmen.

Agree/Disagree?

Yes. I want her ult to be super relevent late game. I want enemies to fear her ult, and for it to deal high damage.

Although, having w keep strut going for a few seconds wouldn't be that much of an escape. Make it only last like, 4 seconds. She is still super squishy, and by using w like that she won't have it for the extra attack speed.

Leu07Aug 29, 20151 votes

Disagree.....If the point of making her a "hit and run" type of adc ala vayne/lucian/sivir, she need an escape mechanism or relay on her ms for escape, I suppose........

But if thats not the case then agree.

JnFnRuAug 30, 20151 votes

They just have to let her passive NOT be stopped by minions and voila: she's a hit and run marksman...

Captain AishiAug 29, 20152 votes

i would prefer her W active to not reactivate her passive at all, and instead have something more in line with 'impure shots' like applying some form of D.O.T. to enemies hit by it or something

LuggAug 29, 20152 votes

MF's ult needs a serious damage increase. It's easily the most risky ult of all the ADCs since she is rooted, but does low damage unless someone stands in it the whole time. It's high risk/low reward. Once she starts it, people should be dropping everything to get out.

Eternal NocturneAug 29, 20153 votes

I agree, I think keeping her as a nonmoblie marksmen with aoes is a unique idea and a part of her identity.,

LuciferAug 30, 20151 votes

I'd like to see her be able to move while ulting (and for it not to scale all weird)

JawAndDoughAug 30, 20151 votes

Random thought, but on top of whatever changes you make to her ult, you should make her be able to move it similar to VelKoz ult. It probably wouldnt make too much of a difference, but it'd be neat.

Shadow GilgameshAug 30, 20152 votes

Not to be a dick, but that's kind of what people said when you guys removed grievous wounds and put the passive activation on W.

Since you removed the fairly unique attribute in favor of the passive, you might as well make it worth something, because right now it's only useful for chasing to deliver the last couple shots most of the time.

McAllisterAug 30, 20151 votes

Wait, are you saying "has a good escape" is normal for marksmen, but "has a relevant scaling ult" is not? I'm having trouble thinking of a marksman ult that doesn't scale on AD (and Sivir's scales just fine), and several of them (Ashe, Tristana) offer hard CC that's relevant all game long. Is "marksman ults fall off" supposed to be a trend that MF bucks? Because if so, it's not pronounced enough.

But, speaking to the broader point, yes, I'd rather see her be more distinct than more homogeneous. I'm just not 100% sure what that means for her.

JnFnRuAug 30, 20151 votes

I think she just needs Garen treatment of her passive so Minions don't remove it and you can properly poke people in lane. Counterplay is the support needs to poke you to stop it and slow you down. Seems reasonable...

TotalJerkAug 30, 20151 votes

This is EXACTLY what everyone was asking for in the first place!

Khell DarkWolfAug 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

IMO I'd rather see unique MF things like a relevant scaling ult make her strong instead of giving her better escaping which would homogenize her towards the other marksmen.

Agree/Disagree?

You should just remove strut and replace it with something else by also compensating with +5 or +10 base movement speed.

Vegas DadAug 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

IMO I'd rather see unique MF things like a relevant scaling ult make her strong instead of giving her better escaping which would homogenize her towards the other marksmen.

Agree/Disagree?

Uhm yes, but that said why would you remove grevious wounds from her anyways, and furthermore who was the rocket scientist who thought putting strut refresh on her steroid made any sense....since it negates the entire point of having strut refresh because well you are using it for the steroid...

MF gameplay should be around big dmg, and wombo combo ult, it is her niche, as opposed to a slippery dashing ADC, or a pokey ADC. She goes in guns blazing somewhat like draven.

Please remove the strut refresh which was silly and give her back grevious wounds.

TortferngatrSep 1, 20152 votes

Hmm. What about letting MF move at (greatly) reduced speed while attacking/casting abilities if Strut is active?

Sona PingAug 29, 20153 votes

I use it to reactivate strut and make sure that I am not attacked, so it works as intended for me. Just saying. That's not to say I wouldn't be open to a duration where it cannot be disabled, however.

darkdillAug 29, 20152 votes

Sometimes that scenario is unfeasible, especially with stickier opponents like Udyr, Ashe, etc.

KougaAug 29, 201511 votes

And in those scenarios, MF simply doesn't escape. It doesn't have to be a "Get Out of Jail Every Time I Get Ganked By Anyone" card. It allows her to chase by letting her quickly proc her speed if someone turns and runs, and if she can break vision/flash/grab a Lantern, she'll be able to proc it and start high-tailing it out of there. But yeah, MF isn't meant to be able to be under direct fire and still escape.

EvilMerodachAug 29, 20152 votes

{quoted}

And in those scenarios, MF simply doesn't escape. It doesn't have to be a "Get Out of Jail Every Time I Get Ganked By Anyone" card. It allows her to chase by letting her quickly proc her speed if someone turns and runs, and if she can break vision/flash/grab a Lantern, she'll be able to proc it and start high-tailing it out of there. But yeah, MF isn't meant to be able to be under direct fire and still escape.

AGREED I feel like her kit (with her range and E giving brush vision and passive ms at max) is ALL built around "Don't FKin' get caught out." idea. Like you're goal should be take 0 damage while still dealing some out from max range at anyone out of position.

Her biggest problem is the high amount of unavoidable dash-attacks on popular champs. (EG: Zed Leblanc ) I mean pretty much if any of those types are in the game..you maybe just shouldn't pick MF?

Edit: ...which also leads to her just being a very niche pick, which is sad, she's fun. item 3070 Maybe soon they'll buff/change item 3508 to do what it was supposed to do and let caster adcs run rampant (once properly cs'd/fed).

Tails DollAug 30, 20152 votes

For me, the bigges issue I have with the ability is how counter intuetive it is.

The abilility biggest selling point it's the AS buff, so you usually use it when attacking something. Usually that somethign you are attacking will atack you back. So now you lost the second part of the ability. For example, when I'm in lane, and I lose the passive while poking, I never, EVER, consider using W to get the passive back up. The CD is fairly high, and the passive being so easy to take down, I'll rather wait for a fight to break and use the AS buff instead of the MS buff.

I only see myself using the ability for the MS buff when a prolonged fight happens, and I either use it to try to get away or to chase down anyone. And that's only effective when fighthing in the jungle or RIver, since if the fight happens on a lane you are pretty much gurantee to lose it.

I just dont see the point in taking away GW to give you a MS buff that is so easy to shot down and that is tied to an AS so you will mostly want it to be off cd to use it on trades.

EvilMerodachAug 29, 20152 votes

Well..I mean it was an added buff to allow her to refresh her passive at all. I don't think comparing her to Teemo is a good idea, MF is higher dps/range, but with the trade off of less slipperiness. I don't think you're supposed to use it mid-fight or mid-trade unless it's just for the extra dps to make sure they aren't outdamaging you. I think ideally you'd start a extended trade/skirmish, then when they decide they're not going to win and run/back off, then you use it to close the deal and kill them/chase to tower and force a recall.

darkdillAug 29, 20157 votes

Sounds too niche in function then. Having a safety net would make MF better.

Besides, they only put that Strut refresh in because they think Grievous Wounds is toxic.

EvilMerodachAug 29, 20152 votes

Well yeh it would be better. But what would she have to give up for it? Range? Damage? Max movespeed? As far as I know, MF is supposed to be fairly balanced right now..so giving her a straight buff should probably mean they'll have to nerf something else.

darkdillAug 29, 20154 votes

She'd give up nothing. She might not be underpowered right now, but there's no reason to pick her over another ADC at the moment.

EvilMerodachAug 29, 20152 votes

{quoted}

She'd give up nothing. She might not be underpowered right now, but there's no reason to pick her over another ADC at the moment.

Oh alright, if we're talking straight buff, maybe? I misunderstood your 1st post, some reason I felt like you were asking for a QoL change, but actually asking for a buff. Haven't really played MF after the change, so wasn't really sure what state she was in. Maybe change the wording some so it's more obvious that you want/you feel she needs a buff. It would be something fairly small that wouldn't give her a lot of extra power so maybe bump her up to the right place. She is/was one of my favorite adc's though. Lately just liking Ashe for consistent dps/go in knowing I'm not going to feed super hard. LIttle shaky on my adcs in general these days (jungle main).

ImpossibleGTAug 29, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Well yeh it would be better. But what would she have to give up for it? Range? Damage? Max movespeed? As far as I know, MF is supposed to be fairly balanced right now..so giving her a straight buff should probably mean they'll have to nerf something else.

She's already given up basically everything she has. Her E and her R are a joke. W used to be one of the better steroids but now it's a ridiculous conflicted skill with no clear purpose -- are you supposed to use it for the attack speed buff or save it as a bad escape tool, her only escape tool, incidentally. It doesn't even have Grievous Wounds to help her out trade her lane opponents.

Her only real ability now is to be a mildly annoying lane bully with Q, and she's not even terribly good at that, either. MF can use all the help she can get.

Tails DollAug 30, 20151 votes

She could use some good fortune...

The WhamboozlerAug 29, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Sounds too niche in function then. Having a safety net would make MF better.

Besides, they only put that Strut refresh in because they think Grievous Wounds is toxic.

I don't see them rushing to change Fizz 's W, and his entire kit is toxic on top of his grievous wounds passive. Smells more like favoritism to me.

NekusenAug 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Sounds too niche in function then. Having a safety net would make MF better.

Besides, they only put that Strut refresh in because they think Grievous Wounds is toxic.

they should make it so after activating W, her Strut can't be shut down for 3 seconds.

or instead of refreshing Strut just giving her a dash

Tails DollAug 30, 20151 votes

I wouldnt consider that change a buff since it took away her GW.

EvilMerodachAug 30, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tails Doll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sAd5Xi4c,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2015-08-30T06:14:35.270+0000)

I wouldnt consider that change a buff since it took away her GW.

Well I don't know about buff from pre-rework MF, but it's definitely a buff to current MF. How is she even panning out as far as win statistics now? Did the rework drop her winrate noticeably? I usually don't pay attention to that stuff..just play 'm and see if they feel weak/strong.

Overall I don't notice much difference in old/new MF, grievous wounds was pretty niche in actually being noticeable through botlane fights. I mean, sure, it screwed over vlad/swain/mundo, but how often did you counter pick MF because of their top/mid? I mostly pick my adc based on enemy adc/supp and if team needs more raw damage or range or teamfight presence. I don't think I ever saw the enemy lock in mundo top and decide to play MF purely on that.

tl;dr: I didn't pick MF because she had grievous wounds, it was more of a tack-on bonus that half the time I forgot about till I was murking their 8/1 Swain.

In other news, I think they need to add grievous wounds back into items. Really dislike item 3165 being the only one. I mean even a lot of mages that would want it can't build it because it's a giant mess of stats they can't use. Vladimir Akali Mordekaiser etc And more than half of champs can't build it at all because they don't scale (well) off of AP, leaving them pretty screwed if you're a top AD vs super regen build Mundo. Executioner's Calling sucked, but that was mostly just cause it had a horrible build order and too cheap/horribly slot inefficient. I think it mostly needed the item 3155 - item 3156 or item 3140 - item 3139 treatment, just give it an end-game upgrade.

Tails DollAug 30, 20151 votes

I dont see how you dont know if it's a buff to "pre-rework" MF, but it's definitly a buff to current MF.

That was hardly a rework, and MF plays exactly the same. The biggest more noticible chage was on her Q and you dont need the MS passive to use it.

I see current MF and "Pre-rework" (that was not a rework, that was an update) as basically the same, since so little changed and not a single problem was addressed. In fact it actualy hurt MF niche as an ADC bully, since now it relies in so many things to be succeful. Your positioning, enemy positionion, minion positioning, minion hp. All of that just so she can do her job. Before all she needed was her positioning and enemy positioning, since the cone was larger and therefore easier to hit.