I think Rengar's ONLY problem is his Bonetooth stacking SCALING.

Astôlfo··30 votes·1,974 views

I think he is perfectly fine in everything except the fact a full Bonetooth gives 30% bonus AD as a bonus. 20% on 4 MIGHT be slightly excessive as well. If the later ranks on Bonetooth stacking were scaled back, I think he would be PERFECTLY balanced.

He can get like 1700 AD apparently in late, which beats Jhin's potential EASILY (Jhin's max is about 1000 in late). This is not okay. EDIT: This was what I heard from someone else. Since then, I've been informed this is not realistic. Please ignore this part.

Yes, he has burst. Wow, an assassin having burst. Incredible! No, without Bonetooth's absurd scaling or being fed out of his ass, he will not delete you in under around .5s. .5s is a good burst time.

Yes, he has CC removal. That also sacrifices the majority of his fastest damage because of the delay between abilities and the Q being a two-part slow skillshot. His empowered CC also forces him to give up his empowered Q or E.

Yes, he has burst. Now, every single ability except his ult leap is dodgeable though. His Q is dodgeable because it no longer is an AA modifier/buff and it is a slow skillshot with two parts.

Yes, he has a 40s stealth. It's also Camouflage. You get near him, you see him. He ults? The moment he does, you get an alert (the eyeband mark). He only gets the crit (a huge chunk of his damage) on the closest target. Have tanks bodyblock for that.

His burst combo may be 0.5s long. That is perfectly fine. He's an assassin. BUT! His EFFECTIVE burst time is FAR longer because of his ult alert and camouflage being visible to nearby units. In addition, his Ferocity passively decaying back to ABSOLUTE ZERO every 6s once out of combat is a huge limiter, meaning he has to stack to 4 IN THE BURST ITSELF. Aka, even if he cleanses once with W, another CC means he's fucked. And by Wing instead of Q or E first, he loses the MAJORITY of instant damage as the W is shit without maxing/AP Rengar'ing. And AP Rengar can't benefit off Q or E or his Bonetooth as well, and in the case of his passive, it basically becomes useless. By Wing first, it's obvious he's there, meaning the delay on his Q as well as the enemy team clearly noticing him will make it much harder to quickly burst a target as opposed to jump-Q instantly first.

Thoughts?

49 Comments

Oglaf5 votes

Don't forget that it can go up as high as 42% if there is a Kha'zix present.

Whoever thought such a huge, percentage-based passive bonus wasn't the dumbest thing ever seriously should reconsider their future within the career of Champion balancing.

Reducing it to **FLAT ** AD would be a start, but even then 30/42 AD is insane for a passive so you might have to round it down to 20/32 instead.

MunchCrunchLunch4 votes

he has base ad of 77.

look at jhin base ad of 121 and gets fucking ridiculous bonus ad from his passive.

Oglaf8 votes

{quoted}

he has base ad of 77.

look at jhin base ad of 121 and gets fucking ridiculous bonus ad from his passive.

Your point being? Every item Rengar purchases with AD on it gives him 30/42% more AD than any other Champion purchasing the same item.

Brain Errör 4042 votes

Assassin rengar is pretty balanced to me. It's the god damn Bruiser rengar that's broken.

Oglaf5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Media TM,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sAE0holg,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-16T16:24:57.454+0000)

Assassin rengar is pretty balanced to me. It's the god damn Bruiser rengar that's broken.

And that, again, comes down to all the free AD he gets. You can skimp out on the AD items in favour of tank due to getting "more bang for your buck" with the few AD items you do get.

Simple as that. It is the Bonetooth passive that is the root of it all.

Brain Errör 4042 votes

Most definitely. He shouldn't have that much damage with only 2 damage items.

He killed me faster than I could kill him on Kha'zix whiles being isolated, meanwhile I barely took him down half health. Not to mention, I even had challenger smite.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

same thing with jhin and jhin doesn't have to get kills to get it. he just gets it with levels.

Oglaf7 votes

{quoted}

same thing with jhin and jhin doesn't have to get kills to get it. he just gets it with levels.

Except it is a compromise for him

  1. Not being able to gain AS
  2. Having a reload-system

Sorry, the two just aren't comparable.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

umm but who gets any attack speed on jhin? and rengar is melee. rengar is sitting at 47% winrate. shut up please

Oglaf4 votes

{quoted}

umm but who gets any attack speed on jhin? and rengar is melee. rengar is sitting at 47% winrate. shut up please

Right back at you, because you clearly can't make any rational argument without resorting to insults and childishness.

B1naryB0t2 votes

Even with insults and childishness, the argument isn't rational. It's not like AS is completely wasted on him.

Oglaf2 votes

{quoted}

Even with insults and childishness, the argument isn't rational. It's not like AS is completely wasted on him.

Still doesn't change the fact that Jhin is kept in check by his restrictions.

Rengar can just go full retard.

50000000000000006 votes

Your multiplier sucks without buying attack speed and crit on Jhin.

JackMcSnipeyz7 votes

Yes. But jhin has fixed attack speed, and a reload time with fixed number of AA. Rengar has regular AA model his passive comes at no "cost" while jhin pays for it.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

yes it comes at the cost of having 50 less base ad than jhin and being freakin melee and no 5000 range ulti? maybe thats why?.

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

he has base ad of 77.

look at jhin base ad of 121 and gets fucking ridiculous bonus ad from his passive.

And yet who scales and snowballs out of control more? Huh. HUH!

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

Don't forget that it can go up as high as 42% if there is a Kha'zix present.

Whoever thought such a huge, percentage-based passive bonus wasn't the dumbest thing ever seriously should reconsider their future within the career of Champion balancing.

Reducing it to **FLAT ** AD would be a start, but even then 30/42 AD is insane for a passive so you might have to round it down to 20/32 instead.

HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cubíx4 votes

I think this is the main reason he's "broken" right now. His kit as a whole is healthier to both him and other players, but I've had games where I gank 2 lanes pre 10mins and easily get those 2-3 stacks, which than only makes its far easier to get the last few.

I think it's a unique passive but maybe remove the base bonus, atleast, and/or lower the percent. 20-25% is the highest it should go, prior to the hunt.

Odinakos1 votes

Yeap seems a number problem to me also. Huge numbers comes with a cost. Usually bad ratios like cassio prerework(i know not the best example but we all get the point).

PermabannedGaren4 votes

No one cares what a bronze four with a sub thirty percent win rate thinks my friend.

{quoted}

I think he is perfectly fine in everything except the fact a full Bonetooth gives 30% bonus AD as a bonus. 20% on 4 MIGHT be slightly excessive as well. If the later ranks on Bonetooth stacking were scaled back, I think he would be PERFECTLY balanced.

He can get like 1700 AD apparently in late, which beats Jhin's potential EASILY (Jhin's max is about 1000 in late). This is not okay.

Rengar can't get 1,700 AD in a real game. Nightblue beating up on silver players is not a real game.

Yes, he has burst. Wow, an assassin having burst. Incredible! No, without Bonetooth's absurd scaling or being fed out of his ass, he will not delete you in under around .5s. .5s is a good burst time.

Yes, he has CC removal. That also sacrifices the majority of his fastest damage because of the delay between abilities and the Q being a two-part slow skillshot. His empowered CC also forces him to give up his empowered Q or E.

Yes, he has burst. Now, every single ability except his ult leap is dodgeable though. His Q is dodgeable because it no longer is an AA modifier/buff and it is a slow skillshot with two parts.

His Q is not realistically dodgeable by most of his intended targets, especially the ones in the meta, but okay.

Yes, he has a 40s stealth. It's also Camouflage. You get near him, you see him. He ults? The moment he does, you get an alert (the eyeband mark). He only gets the crit (a huge chunk of his damage) on the closest target. Have tanks bodyblock for that.

Unless you have three tanks literally surrounding both the mid laner and ADC this is an unrealistic scenario (and if you do have that you expose yourself to the rest of Rengar's team's AOE damage and CC). Rengar's ult duration is so long that he can circle until the ADC or mid laner is his target. He can also jump in after an engage by his own team, since he will have vision of the ADC. It's not like his leap is stopped by enemy champions being in the way. He's not going to leap towards your ADC and be blocked if someone just flashes in his path. He can leap past them if he can see his target.

His burst combo may be 0.5s long. That is perfectly fine. He's an assassin.

Yes.

BUT! His EFFECTIVE burst time is FAR longer because of his ult alert and camouflage being visible to nearby units. In addition, his Ferocity passively decaying back to ABSOLUTE ZERO every 6s once out of combat is a huge limiter, meaning he has to stack to 4 IN THE BURST ITSELF. Aka, even if he cleanses once with W, another CC means he's fucked.

This is simply not true. Rengar's W doesn't just cleanse CC, it makes him immune to it for 1.5 seconds. This is more than enough time to kill an ADC.

And by Wing instead of Q or E first, he loses the MAJORITY of instant damage as the W is shit without maxing/AP Rengar'ing. And AP Rengar can't benefit off Q or E or his Bonetooth as well, and in the case of his passive, it basically becomes useless. By Wing first, it's obvious he's there, meaning the delay on his Q as well as the enemy team clearly noticing him will make it much harder to quickly burst a target as opposed to jump-Q instantly first.

Thoughts?

Nah, his burst with the guaranteed crit alone is a huge amount of damage, especially with an IE. He can use W to cleanse CC and still have enough damage to kill the ADC.

Astôlfo3 votes

Thanks for the rank bashing. Goes to show the kind of crap-quality I should expect from the rest of your post.

I heard from some other Boards user it was 1700 without any context, but okay, thank you for informing me. I was just unaware.

So what? It still is dodgeable and otherwise avoidable, due to how slow it is. The only reason most can't avoid it is they get themselves into a situation where they get hit point-blank in the first place without any other backup measures. Any sort of mobility spell is enough, and so does any sort of invulnerability/protection.

You do realize Camouflage means he is visible via the two red wards (scanner and the other one) as well as the new Control Ward? And it also means he's visible via just proximity? Also, an ADC shouldn't be in the front lines anyways. They should be in the backlines. Assuming Rengar flanks as an intelligent player would, then all you have to do is shift the ADC more towards the inner part of the group rather than the back lines. Or alternatively, just drop a Control Ward and block his path off. You can also just CC him mid-jump. Okay, so... he has a 40s long Camouflage and can circle around for that long... so what? That means the teamfight will be effectively a 4v5 until whenever he does so. I never said he can't leap anyways. It's just the crit benefit for leaping to closest target will now be unattainable, which is a huge portion of his damage, and also the only unavoidable portion (in the sense it's an autoattack modifier if I remember correctly).

Uh, no. Only his Empowered W gives him the immunity. And using the Empowered W after having to go through 3 more abilities to even get to 4 stacks in the first place (1 from leap assuming he was at 0) means he will not get any other Empowered abilities in that burst fight. Which means, his E is no longer a root, it will only be a slow. And it also means his Q will be far less brutal in terms of damage. So what? I think that's a fair trade off. And sure, he's immune to CC for 1.5s. That doesn't mean the ADC's just going to stand there nicely for you for 1.5s.

Except it's not going to be a guaranteed crit if you prevent him from making the ADC the closest target. And it literally shows who the closest is, does it not? The closest is the one with the eyeband patch mark? The W damage is shit without going AP Rengar. Q is dodgeable. E is body-blockable as well as even slower and thinner. The reason he still kills the ADC anyways is because his Bonetooth passive is flat out ridiculous right now. There really is no other valid contributing reason other than just the enemy team handling the situation badly.

nice table3 votes

yeah him getting extra bonus ad is probably the reason his most effective built as a tank, right?

NightmareAmazoX1 votes

Mhm.

Noxian Pride3 votes

Remember when it was 50% AD at 5 stacks in PBE? That was fun to watch.

Jokes aside, 30 might still be too strong, yeah. 20 or a large amount of flat sounds more in line.

five oh tree 3 votes

1700 AD? No way. There's no fucking way he can get that much ad. 77 + 30 + 12 + (75*6) = 564. With 3 infernals+elder + kha'zix/fullbonetooth that could come to ~1146 realistically he's going to hit maybe 600-700 in a normal, full length match.

Archace1 votes

i've seen 1700 damage with his leap on whoever is marked but no, 1700 actual AD is not possible

feryvunny2 votes

Solid points. The core of Rengar's problem right now is his passive. It's too easy to get. A couple ganks and a skirmish and he's can max it.

it scales incredibly and by 2 items he can have more AD than any other champ in the game. The huge steroid and the ability to have insane AD with little AD items lets him build bruiser. Hello? Remember bruiser Fizz and tank Ekko? He can slap an IE and 1 auto 1 shot people if he's ahead enough. That's not okay even if you can see him coming. There are a lot of factors that come into play so you can't always just say "oh just body block it".

Riot wanted to open up his burst window, the passive contradicts that. Tune down the numbers and give him greater risk/requirements, or give him a new passive altogether and he's good to go.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

How the fuck are people getting 1000+ AD. Like seriously even the highest I've seen on pbe was short of 1000.

DarkRitual1 votes

Three infernals and Elder on top of 5 stacks might get there.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Three infernals and Elder on top of 5 stacks might get there.

And 6 AD items right?

NightmareAmazoX1 votes

And baron.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

And baron.

Aha.

Probably also all AD/level runes.

5050BS1 votes

His toothnecklace and Q are where he is broken. +30% overall AD is BROKEN

His Q hitting twice and the second hit being bigger on top of the necklace and furry bonus means one shotting mist ppl.

That's the problem. He will almost always get to 5 kills

Astôlfo2 votes

Technically, it's +30% Bonus AD to Rengar's total AD as a bonus. But yeah, still absurd.

His Q is perfectly fine.

NightmareAmazoX1 votes

Yep! ^

N3mO061 votes

Let's infinite scaling......1.5% ad every kill.

NightmareAmazoX1 votes

That would be Kindred passive.

Donovaine1 votes

I personally think his w is what is broken. If used properly it can negate all damage taken in a trade as well as be a get out of jail free card.

The fact that empowered abilities don't scale with rank also sits wrong with me. The point in empowering then is for the extra effect not the extra damage (besides q but you could give that a cool effect for empowering it like next auto is a free crit or something).

Astôlfo1 votes

It cannot negate all damage taken. It only heals for half of what was taken in the last X seconds (forgot specific time).

Also, the fact he used his W in itself puts an inherent delay due to casting and animations and human speed. Which means there's more time to react.

Kled Man Walking1 votes

i think the percentage AD would make more sense if it scaled off of base AD instead of bonus. that way, as long as you have one stack, it scales with level (which makes sense)

only real potential abuse case i could think of is if he built sterak's but that item is kinda anyways so i don't feel like it'd be a problem

either that or it only grants flat AD for the first four trophies and the fifth (and the head of kha'zix) grants a separate buff that gives a bit of % bonus AD

Bots Whilst High1 votes

The thing that would fix rengar is giving his leap a 5-6 second cool down and making it less effective if you have vision of him. It's annoying to have him hop out of a bush 3 times in a fight.

Astôlfo1 votes

I mean, to be fair, you really shouldn't be fighting him near a bush in the first place. Also, unless he's right next to the bush, the time it takes for him to loop back and continually leap is impractical.

NightmareAmazoX1 votes

I hope riot reads this before touching our lovely cat, Because the passive is really the root of all the problems rengar has right now, They could also just revert the passive to pre-rework you know?

Astôlfo1 votes

The issue with that is it just goes back to him killing the 0/8 repeatedly to farm his passive. I think the current passive would be fine if they just dialed back the reward on the fifth (and maybe fourth) kill. +30% is ridiculous. +20% is still sort of pushing it.

NightmareAmazoX1 votes

Yep. The passive really needs some adjustments,

Seenan1 votes

1700 seems impossible unless other champs buff him. 24+42% -> 66% AD, under the best conditions, with 6 of the best item (is that Bloodthirster)? 450 x 1.66 = 747.

nice table1 votes

its possible alright, you are forgetting scaling runes, elder drake, baron and red pot, also the ad buffs stack multiplicatively

Rockm Sockm1 votes

Rengar has the worst animations in game, the Q cast time is horrendous and he is as slow as molasses now.

His ult is a glorified ghost because it's pretty much worthless outside of run speed.

I am in favor of removing bone tooth because it's worthless if your teammates get the kill instead.

I enjoy tank Rengar top and being down one passive and an ult is interesting to play around but that's not gonna last long.

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