Newsflash! No champion EVER deserves to be gutted. Nerfs are fine. Making them unplayable isn't.

Astôlfo·Dec 29, 2016·179 votes·7,147 views

Every champion deserves to at least be playable in some form.

Asking for gutting and not nerfs is just salt instead of reason.

208 Comments

RebonackDec 29, 201680 votes

I played a ton of Eve back in Season 1, and what Riot did to her was completely justifiable.

Sometimes a champ's kit is such that they completely warp the game around them simply by existing. When that happens they need to be crushed until they get a rework. Kalista is in that boat right now.

badoogaDec 29, 201630 votes

LeeSin is laughing in distance.

Spaceman5pffDec 29, 201621 votes

He really just has too big of numbers.

Extreme versatility + mobility should not come with extreme anything else.

Supreme Senpai69Dec 30, 20165 votes

Someone said something on another post that was really interesting to me. They said that almost every jungler, when strong, is insanely toxic to the game. Yi, Xin, Elise, Kindred, etc. They said Lee has to be strong so the others can't be. I'd much rather see Lee than the other ones.

I don't know why they all have to be strong though so maybe that wasn't good logic. Like does nerfing Lee make the others stronger?

Spaceman5pffDec 30, 20163 votes

Well the thing is that the jungle is by nature a lower income role than solo lane / adc.

It isn't as low as support, but it is meaningfully lower than a solo lane. The result of this is that if a CARRY jungler is viable, it is because they are able to carry on low income, which just means they are reliable when it comes to carrying.

Kindred tackled this by relying more on her stacking than gold income, but nothing can completely override the fact that an item is an item, and having more of them makes you more powerful.

MartyrofsandDec 30, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Revan Senpai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0kAG9XE2,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-30T00:41:49.960+0000)

Someone said something on another post that was really interesting to me. They said that almost every jungler, when strong, is insanely toxic to the game. Yi, Xin, Elise, Kindred, etc. They said Lee has to be strong so the others can't be. I'd much rather see Lee than the other ones.

I don't know why they all have to be strong though so maybe that wasn't good logic. Like does nerfing Lee make the others stronger?

There is a problem with this logic. It's mainly that pretty much since S2 the jungle has been Lee Sin and everyone equal to or better than Lee Sin.

He is the standard, the measuring stick of the jungle and people who don't reach him don't compete. When you measuring stick is literally a champion who has everything in the game a jungler could ever want and then some the only place that leaves you to go is to break the living hell out of everyone else.

It's why instead of seeing junglers who had strengths and weaknesses like Udyr/Shyvana who can power farm like bad but have shitty ganks, or Alistar/J4/Naut who were gankbots but couldn't farm even close to the other two, we instead get Elise/Kha/Rek'sai/Vi all of which have really strong clears and can gank super strong as well.

Lee has never been healthy for the jungle, he was the first tumor and his cancer has spread so much so now that now Riot is pretty much screwed and the jungle really has zero chance of being healthy ever again.

Nameless VoiceDec 29, 20168 votes

As an Eve main, even I have to agree with this.

Gutting a champion should never be the final outcome, but it is sometimes a necessary temporary step until the problem can be fixed more properly by a rework.

If a champion is completely warping the game, or completely sapping the fun out of the game for one entire team, then they deserve immediate action - no matter how severe - to get them out of that state. If the problem is complicated enough that it will take a lot of time and effort to fix properly, then gutting them in the interim so that they are rarely played is still better than letting them run rampant ruining games.

At the end of the day, Riot want to to keep/increase their playerbase. If players aren't having fun any more, then they are less likely to continue playing or recommend the game to others. I personally think that people are more likely to stop playing because some enemy champion is sucking the fun out of all their games than they are if their favourite champion isn't viable for a while. Most people are happy to try a few different champions, and even put their mains to rest for a while when they fall too far out of the meta. If your main is currently in a bad state, you have the choice to either play them anyway and take the reduced chance to win, or play a different champion. If the thing you hate playing against is in almost every single game, then there's little you can do to avoid them except to stop playing.

(Yes, you can ban them in draft modes, but right now it feels like there are enough champions in such a bad state that there aren't enough bans, and also a huge percentage of players play non-draft modes and therefore have no way to avoid enemy picks.)

5000000000000000Dec 29, 20163 votes

yeah, if someone's kit is actually broken they need to be gutted. If someone is just overpowered but not broken (Let's say Lux binding does literally a million damage at level 1) then they just need to get nerfed, not gutted.

ZerenzaDec 29, 20165 votes

As a yorick main, i have to agree, what happened to yorick is probably one of the saddest examples since he was gutted basically upon release and didn't get changes for many years but his kit was unhealthy and deserved it.

MohawkBirdDec 29, 201647 votes

[deleted]

abdelhamid9Dec 29, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Kalista is the only champion that I personally think deserves to be gutted until she gets a proper rework. Her passive is single-handedly the most toxic thing in this entire game. A dash on every auto that makes every melee without multiple point and click gap closers useless was the stupidest idea to ever put into this game.

Hate to say it, but Kalista deserves to stay in a garbage state until her inevitable rework.

Azir is another one actually, the fucking bird achieved something no other mid managed to, he managed to wipe out ori out of competitive play (see s6 before azir geting guted), wipe out a champ thats been a staple pick even in the dfg assassin meta of s4, and the s3 assassin meta with shit like prime kass 100%pick/ban old zed, peak fizz gragas.

SpecterVonBarenDec 30, 20162 votes

Azir's kit isn't inherently toxic in terms of what its intent was, the problem was that he was too good at doing things he wasn't supposed to be good at. Kalista's kit was doing exactly what it was designed to do and was toxic while doing it. Azir can become viable again without being broken with relatively small changes, maybe rework his E or fool around with his cooldown and damage numbers (Like greatly reduce his Q damage but also reduce its cd). Kalista's kit however, CAN NOT be allowed to be functional and needs a large scale rework.

abdelhamid9Dec 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Azir's kit isn't inherently toxic in terms of what its intent was, the problem was that he was too good at doing things he wasn't supposed to be good at. Kalista's kit was doing exactly what it was designed to do and was toxic while doing it. Azir can become viable again without being broken with relatively small changes, maybe rework his E or fool around with his cooldown and damage numbers (Like greatly reduce his Q damage but also reduce its cd). Kalista's kit however, CAN NOT be allowed to be functional and needs a large scale rework.

Not gonna lie, you got me there, you are right in why both of them were strong.

SpecterVonBarenDec 29, 201626 votes

Lies.

Kalista Deserved every bit of it.

BlakiepugDec 29, 201622 votes

R.I.P. TahmKench 2016 R.I.P. Azir 2016 They were too young to deserve this.

Edit: R.I.P. Kindred 2016 as well. Edit 2: R.I.P. KogMaw 2016 both AD and AP.

AirKingNeoDec 29, 201633 votes

Tahm is meta though.

Azir is in same boat as Kalista. He's so gamewarping and dumb in lane it's stupid.

BlakiepugDec 29, 20169 votes

{quoted}

Tahm is meta though.

Azir is in same boat as Kalista. He's so gamewarping and dumb in lane it's stupid.

Tahm is hardly meta. He can be played but there are just choices like Nautilus that are flat out better. Tahm had half his identity taken from him earlier in the year. If you've been paying attentions to winrates at all, Tahm Kench has had the second lowest winrate in the support role ever since he was nerfed in March(?) only above Nunu support. Nunu. Support. Even Taliyah support was above Tahm for a while after release.

His winrate increased for a hot second with the introduction of the assassin meta, a meta at which Tahm is built to excel in, but now it is decreasing again. His stats are reflective of a high skill-cap champion when he simply isn't one.

morris1Dec 29, 20166 votes

I still consider he'd be best in top or jungle. If you give a support the ability to save their teammates as well as pick off enemies, it never ends well when they become meta.

BlakiepugDec 29, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moraru Maurice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0kAG9XE2,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-29T17:52:51.742+0000)

I still consider he'd be best in top or jungle. If you give a support the ability to save their teammates as well as pick off enemies, it never ends well when they become meta.

I mean his ability to save teammates isn't 100% guaranteed, nor are his pick offs. How doesn't it end well when he can do both? You need to learn to play around Tahm's strengths and weaknesses. He is terrible at team fighting and the nerfs removed his ability to catch anyone out. Now his only real pro is being able to save an ally and maybe soak some damage but there are tons of better tanks now with the last round of "buffs" that hurt his shielding mechanic really hard. The reason he got nerfed before was due to his high ban rate and "being annoying." I wonder what other champion fits this description... Yasuo Vayne LeeSin

The Yetii RiderDec 29, 20163 votes

{quoted}

R.I.P. 2016 R.I.P. 2016 They were too young to deserve this.

Edit: R.I.P. 2016 as well.

Hell no. Fuck Kindred. All of Kindred's abilities are auto-succeed.

Q - Auto Target

W - Auto-Target

E - Point and Click

R - Automatically centered on Kindred.

There's zero room to fail when you use Kindred's abilities. The only way for an opponent to interact with them is to knock back (not just displace, it has to knock back, and in the right direction) Kindred or one of their allies from Kindred's ult. That's the only thing you can do against their kit.

Champion should never have been released with a binary kit like that.

BlakiepugDec 29, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0kAG9XE2,comment-id=00040002,timestamp=2016-12-29T22:52:48.967+0000)

Hell no. Fuck Kindred. All of Kindred's abilities are auto-succeed.

Q - Auto Target

W - Auto-Target

E - Point and Click

R - Automatically centered on Kindred.

There's zero room to fail when you use Kindred's abilities. The only way for an opponent to interact with them is to knock back (not just displace, it has to knock back, and in the right direction) Kindred or one of their allies from Kindred's ult. That's the only thing you can do against their kit.

Champion should never have been released with a binary kit like that.

? On release, Kindred's R could actually be used on other teammate's as well I think. I'm not understanding what you are trying to say either. Just that she should be trash tier because she cannot miss any abilities? What about Vayne and Nautilus? And other champs that can't miss?

The Yetii RiderDec 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

? On release, Kindred's R could actually be used on other teammate's as well I think. I'm not understanding what you are trying to say either. Just that she should be trash tier because she cannot miss any abilities? What about Vayne and Nautilus? And other champs that can't miss?

Nautilus's Q is a skill shot. His E can miss, it originates in a circle around him but can be dashed out of or dodged. Kindred's Q and W auto target, so if you are in range you are automatically struck, similar to an auto attack.

Vayne's inability to miss is part of the issue with her, though she can still miss the stun on her Condemn.

And yeah, Kindred's R being able to be aimed was probably the best part of their kit in terms of skill expression, but it was just too overpowered in a pro's hands. The change to make it auto-center is more aggravating at a lower elo though.

KetiDec 30, 20164 votes

the skill expression on kindred R is shifted into having proper positioning as you don't have the option to center it around a teammate anymore, so it's important for kindred specifically to be in a good center for it. At the same time most kindred players prefer the new ult from a QoL standpoint as it's much easier to get the last second ults off of reflex.

The Yetii RiderDec 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

the skill expression on kindred R is shifted into having proper positioning as you don't have the option to center it around a teammate anymore, so it's important for kindred specifically to be in a good center for it. At the same time most kindred players prefer the new ult from a QoL standpoint as it's much easier to get the last second ults off of reflex.

That's not QoL. QoL is something that changes nothing from a gameplay perspective, it only makes the player's life easier.

This changed the way Kindred's ultimate could be used entirely.

KetiDec 30, 20163 votes

the QoL is from getting to ult immediately from pressing R, not having to mouse over yourself to target it while clicking all over the place in a fight, it lets you reactively ult a lot faster.

Leo1024Dec 30, 20167 votes

{quoted}

R.I.P. 2016 R.I.P. 2016 They were too young to deserve this.

Edit: R.I.P. 2016 as well. Edit 2: R.I.P. 2016 both AD and AP.

don't forget Taliyah item 3070 Taliyah

Succubús GFDec 30, 20163 votes

The fact that they buffed taliyah and then nerfed her several times after had me shook asf

Succubús GFDec 30, 20164 votes

@ Kindred being a champion who got gutted withing 4 months of release x.x

Rank BatteryDec 29, 201616 votes

No you're wrong. Yasuo and vayne deserve to be absolutely gutted at this point

Spicy RiceDec 29, 201632 votes

Great argument

Edited, thank you melledoneus

TyrekGoldenspearDec 29, 201611 votes

I completely agree.

I play a lot of champs that are immobile and food for mobile champs, but I would hate if any of them were gutted.

These players deserve to play too, and so what if their playstlye counters mine? I shouldn't have to have a faceroll lane every game just to have fun.

I would never want Kat gutted, or Hecarim, Vayne, Yasuo, or anyone else.

Not even Akali--Oh.

NightmareAmazoXDec 29, 20164 votes

AM I DREAMING? OR WHAT? I DID NOT SEE THIS DAY COMING NOT EVEN IN MY WILDEST DREAMS SOMEONE WOULD COMMENT THIS. WOW. [slayer-pantheon-rainbows]

Legacy HydralphaDec 29, 201611 votes

item 3070 Aatrox

Magia ErebeaDec 29, 201611 votes

"Everything is better with salt." - Gordon Ramsey, 9-Star Chef.

RickiebossDec 29, 20169 votes

Except the one champion who got insta-gutted the day of release...

Cough Taliyah Cough

TotalJerkDec 29, 201612 votes

She was hotfix buffed, what are you talking about?

Nameless VoiceDec 29, 20165 votes

No, she was gutted when they decided to rework her W to not lock out her other abilities, to make her feel "smoother" to play. That, in turn, allowed her to W before E, massively reducing her skill requirement and counterplay, and so she had to be nerfed into the ground to compensate - all to "fix" a problem that wasn't even a problem in the first place to the people who actually wanted to play her.

RavoreDec 29, 20161 votes

You have to admit that allowing her to W before her E was a lot better and felt a lot less clunky. No matter what you say i will not agree that it was a good design call for her skill to be that clunky because 9/10 times the W would miss after you've used the E

Nameless VoiceDec 30, 20164 votes

To be honest, I didn't find it clunky at all after a few games.

By forcing you to throw out your rock field first, it also gave your opponent some warning as to what you were trying to do, so they could play around it and try to avoid your shove. It was a clearly telegraphed play with plenty of counterplay, but which gave a big reward (in terms of high damage) if you managed to pull it off successfully.

Fishing with W until you manage to land one, and then being able to quickly throw down the E afterwards just feels cheap and far less skillful than hitting the old combo did.

Also, because the new way is much more reliable, it of course needs to have much less raw power - which is why Taliyah was a balance problem after they changed it.

RavoreDec 30, 20161 votes

This is exactly it. I agree 500% with you when you say this

"By forcing you to throw out your rock field first, it also gave your opponent some warning as to what you were trying to do, so they could play around it and try to avoid your shove."

This is why it wasn't good because look at what we have now and what we had before, we had pre reworked talon who could kill you without any real reaction, Syndra who can kill you without any real reaction. She was among the slowest and it really caused a lot of problems with her in laning besides shoving the wave and missing the knockup is such a huge part of her damage gone because they also explode the rocks too was just too much i think. Because she'd get off her Q then she'd kind of just be there.

Nameless VoiceDec 30, 20161 votes

Are you saying that Taliyah should have more reliable damage and less counterplay because there are other mages who do? Because I don't agree with that. That's basically saying "other champions are badly designed, so this one should be too."

You'll find that counterplay is one of Riot's core design values (even if they don't always follow them.)

inplaneDec 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0kAG9XE2,comment-id=000b00020000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-30T13:15:16.976+0000)

Are you saying that Taliyah should have more reliable damage and less counterplay because there are other mages who do? Because I don't agree with that. That's basically saying "other champions are badly designed, so this one should be too."

You'll find that counterplay is one of Riot's core design values (even if they don't always follow them.)

Taliyah 's Q being her only reliable damage source is already a horrible design decision in itself. She's basically a Q-bot with how overly reliant she is on her Q. Her W and E serve little to no purpose outside of being unreliable, inefficient CC and cheap damage. Any decent player with some knowledge against her will make her flat out useless because of how underwhelming she is compared to any other mage. She has too little room for error. One slip up usually means a death for her.

More power should be moved from her Q into her E and W. That way she doesn't rely on one skill alone. People say her Q is op and annoying to deal with. Well that's exactly the problem. Riot buffed it to the point where it's her only damaging move.

Nameless VoiceDec 30, 20162 votes

That's all part of the problem caused by the mini-rework, though. They had to take a ton of power out of her E because it became too reliable, forcing her to be even more reliant on Q.

inplaneDec 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Except the one champion who got insta-gutted the day of release...

Cough Cough

Not really the day of release. More like a month and a half after release. After the trainwreck that is 6.14 Taliyah .

OyddAWqJ5rDec 29, 20169 votes

Except for Sejuani , she was in the spotlight for too long. LeeSin ?

And Mordekaiser , cuz he invalidated marksmen. LeeSin ?

And Evelynn , cuz she was doing too good at her job and noone liked playing against it. LeeSin ?

And Azir , cuz he was crowding out other mages and was doing it way too safely. LeeSin ? [Note: to be fair he did adapt his own version of the Insec, renamed the "Shurima Shuffle", and absolutely noone is allowed to do Lee's moves better than him he had it coming)

What I'm trying to say here is gut Yasuo

dakota saturnDec 29, 20167 votes

Evelynn wasn't actually unplayable - she was fine after the nerfs

RivuoDec 29, 20165 votes

Tbh even kalista is still kinda fucking stupid in lane. i still pick her sometimes and winning lane is not that hard when you can lodge a braum at the enemy ashe

trash sionDec 29, 20165 votes

I disagree. It's obviously okay to gut certain champions in Riot's eyes, regardless of what you personally think. Aatrox, Morde, etc. Thus, which champions get gutted is just a matter of favoritism. Unpopular champions that don't make money are champs that Riot has no problem gutting. Champs who have been in the spotlight too long or are too strong or unfun to play against DESERVE to be gutted. Yasuo, Lux, Lee, etc.