Malzahar has a 57.79% winrate and 90.65% banrate.

Astôlfo·May 7, 2016·184 votes·10,058 views

Sorce: http://na.op.gg/champion/malzahar/statistics/jungle

For some reason, that feels like a problem.

Maybe it's the 90% damage reduction that also makes him immune to all CC for a full second that refreshes every 4s in late game (23s-4s scaling). Maybe it's the fact he has one of the fastest and safest jungle clears with half a dozen Voidlings just about every single camp to tank and clear for him. Maybe it's the fact he can solo any Dragon or Rift Herald, and Baron by pretty much the time it spawns. Maybe it's the fact he has 2 of the arguably 3 strongest CCs (Silence + Suppress, Stun being the third). One of them being on an extremely low CD while the other is on a relatively short CD considering it's an ultimate that deals massive % health damage.

But maybe I'm just overthinking things.

EDIT: Look, FOTM-mainer downvotes streaming in.

212 Comments

LiveYiOrDieHardMay 7, 201689 votes

The biggest problem is how 10% of teams are letting him through the ban phase.

Supreme Senpai69May 8, 20168 votes

{quoted}

The biggest problem is how 10% of teams are letting him through the ban phase.

They don't ban him on purpose, hoping to secure him for their team. And it usually backfires, I bet.

Velzard of KozMay 8, 20162 votes

Another problem is that this wasn't supposed to happen even If he was "favorized". The designer of his changes expected actually the opposite - drop of the winning rate and expected it will take more skill to play him.

He probably thought that champion with one low-resource low-CD click-to-go ability If melee or ranged basic attack If ranged will be enough to get rid of his passive just like with Yasuo and it won't result in being so annoying. And he probably expected QSS plus dash-champion or blink-champion will be enough counter to his ult, while still not making it so easily counterable by one/two click(s), yet the damage seems too much considering it's point-to-go If you can't counter it by means mentoined above.

GaleWinUnleashedMay 7, 201628 votes

He's got some changes coming in the hotfix. We'll see what that does for him.

Zenthon PrimeMay 7, 201613 votes

They didn't hit the passive iirc. He won't be balanced until they do.

The worst case scenario is that they nerf everything but the passive, but then nerf the passive and boom he's Olaf'd.

DorkunedAurasMay 7, 201625 votes

That's skarnered

EcchiOtakuTMMay 9, 20161 votes

No skarner'd is buffing everything except what's keeping them back until they finnally fix what was actually wrong causing them to explode in strength which will result in them getting heavily nerfed. Which I fear is what's happening with vlad currently.

Malz might be irelia'd or olaf'd (I'd rather see irelia'd than olaf'd)

DorkunedAurasMay 9, 20162 votes

So, this is reverse skarnered. They're nerfing his mana costs, and then possibly nerfing other things, and the eventually getting to the rape swarm of voidlings, and he's gonna be garbage from there.

ShinjusukeMay 8, 20168 votes

the passive isn't the real problem, it's his effectiveness as a jungler. Lane Malzahar is really NOT that strong, and you can burn any low-cd or low-cost spell to bust his passive first like any other similar champ (like Pantheon for example, or anyone buying Banshee's).

They're nerfing the right spot. It just won't be obvious right away.

That said I hope they keep him a strong jungle pick, i've played Malz for years and it's vastly more fun than the super-passive laner he is.

EndlessIsolationMay 8, 20162 votes

{quoted}

the passive isn't the real problem, it's his effectiveness as a jungler. Lane Malzahar is really NOT that strong, and you can burn any low-cd or low-cost spell to bust his passive first like any other similar champ (like Pantheon for example, or anyone buying Banshee's).

They're nerfing the right spot. It just won't be obvious right away.

That said I hope they keep him a strong jungle pick, i've played Malz for years and it's vastly more fun than the super-passive laner he is.

From what they were saying, they are fine with him being decent in the jungle... just not as overwhelming as he is at the moment. As long as they dont do too much to his numbers outside of tuning the voidlings he will be in a good spot i think.

jrg1695May 8, 201612 votes

https://www.champion.gg/champion/Malzahar/Middle Lane Malzahar 57% winrate

ShinjusukeMay 8, 20167 votes

I'm not saying he's weak. I'm saying he's not a fuckin' instawin, like people are pretending. 57% is by no means the highest winrate in league history.

I'm saying that Jungle Malzahar inherently has significantly more power than lane Malzahar because of how the jungle works. You're not going to convince anyone sane that he's better in lane than in the jungle when he can solo dragon at lvl 2 with blue buff without losing more than 1/4th his hp.

Deadly MittensMay 8, 20163 votes

The passive makes some ultimates look weak, and is on an 8s cd lategame.

Poke fairs the best and still have their combos thrown off to avoid having multiple skills absorbed, assassins have to ask someone else to pop it, hold off a second, then find an opportunity to engage within 7s or it refreshes, dps chars are basically stunned for 1s, and tanks can't get picks off.

Maybe if the damage reduction/cc immunity only applied against the first hit, it would help ease these issues.

Onkel MalteMay 9, 20162 votes

I hate it when people get the numbers wrong, as this would even enforce your argument.

It's 6 seconds CD on level 18. And that dear gentleman is RIDICULUS! swings the wand

Registeel1234May 7, 201621 votes

actually, knockup is stronger than stun, but yea, you are right on everything :/

The Blue JellyMay 7, 201614 votes

Agreed on OP still having a very good, valid point, but going one step further on the CC value scale, he actually has two mid-range CC effects.

EDIT ONE: This is based on implementation within this game currently EDIT TWO: Added Pacify

Knockup Stun > Charm = Fear Silence > Suppress > Taunt > Displacement (push > pull) Snare > Slow Pacify > Blind

--Tier 0: "Just Let It Happen"-- Nothing resists or cancels Knockup, and it's a full disable for the duration, so it's definitely king.
--Tier 1: Full Disable, Engage and Disengage--
Stun is a full disable that is resistible, but it isn't negated when the source unit dies.
Charm and Fear both are full disables good for engage and disengage, but are innately ally-negatable (they expire almost instantly if the source unit dies). The repositioning effect makes charm a better engage, but fear a better disengage, resulting in them being about the same in over-all power. While Suppress itself is just like Charm and Fear, only without the movement (making it a neutral version of Charm/Fear), the implementation within this game has it combined with a pulling displacement or a self-suppress, making it very definitely a Tier 2 ability.
--Tier 2: Situational Disable or Interrupt--
Silence basically shuts down anything that isn't mindless right-clicking (even ADCs dislike being silenced), making it useful in both engage and disengage
While the core of Suppress has it in Tier 1, all implementations currently in the game either also suppress yourself (Malzahar, Urgot, Warwick) or combine it with a Pulling Displacement (Skarner, Kench), forcing it to be Tier 2 because its implementation makes it obligate engage.
Taunt is a full disable, but they autoattack you. Situationally really powerful, but also situationally terrible (taunting the fed ADC when low on HP is never a good idea). You can really only use it to engage, not disengage. It also cancels on the source unit's death
Displacement is very much like Knockup.... but can be accidentally used to save an enemy or kill an ally as it forces rapid, oft significant movement (unlike charm/fear, which force slowed, minor movement). This makes it significantly more risky than Suppress or Taunt. Also note that a Push Displacement is better than a Pull displacement, as the former can be used both as engage and disengage, while a pull displacement can only disengage in a sacrificial manner.
--Tier 3: Useful Non-Interrupt--
Snare is great for disengage, but is really only for setup / press purposes on engage. It is, however, very powerful against champions that specialize in not holding still (Ahri, Zed, LeBlink, etc) as it blocks a good portion of what they do.
Slows are like snares in that they function mostly as disengage and setup / press, but unlike snares, it doesn't effect ability based movement, so Ahri, Zed, LeBlink, etc are significantly less hamstrung by it.
--Tier 4: Situational Only--
Pacify actually disables the ability to autoattack, making it stronger than blind, but it has nearly the exact same effect. IIRC the only advantage it really has is Blind's weird interactions with a few on-attack/hit effects, which lets it edge blind out just a little.
Blind is only useful against autoattackers, and some of them can even mitigate it with abilities. Very situational outside of lane phase, though can win a teamfight if used right, but "oh no, I'm the mage/tank/ad-caster and I'm blind."

Of course, anything Tier 2 or higher (on this scale) is pretty damn good to have, so...

EDIT ONE: Thanks to Ninja Swaggy for pointing out I gooffed on defining Suppression. I didn't really move it much, but it is technically possible to be Tier 1 if someone were to get a suppress that wasn't combined with a self-suppress or a pull displacement, and thus could use it to disengage.

EDIT TWO: Thanks to Yetii Rider for pointing out out I missed Pacify. Or rather, couldn't think of what it was called.

five oh tree May 7, 20165 votes

Skarner's ult is a suppress and he can definitely move and is not stunned. Suppress can also not be cleansed, correct? It is also unaffected by tenacity. This makes it AT LEAST tier 1.

The Blue JellyMay 7, 20161 votes

Malzahar, Warwick, and Urgot (the only other three champions with a suppress, minus Kench's nom which could be called a form of suppress) all disable themselves, too. I had actually forgotten about Skarner's. It blocks Cleanse but does not block QSS, iirc.

You are correct he does not disable himself, however, it would not promote it out of Tier 2 as it cannot be used to disengage, only engage. It's a harder engage, but I'm very adamant about Tier 1 being able to be used to engage or disengage, not just one. EDIT: I've added a note that it could be Tier 1 if it were to be implemented that way, and decided to move it above Taunt, but I still consider Silence better due to versatility of role with current implementations.

Guess I should update the list with a note on that.

Have an upboat for catching my goof. And for balance since someone downvoted you for whatever reason.

Auz the RipperMay 8, 20161 votes

supression also stops the target from using any other summoner spell. No smite, ignite, heal or barrier.

The Blue JellyMay 8, 20161 votes

Couldda sworn Stuns and such did that as well, with Cleanse being the only exception.

Auz the RipperMay 9, 20162 votes

Well, Flash and teleport are disabled by almost everything, but all other summoner spells can be used through almost whatever the hell you want, aside from supression

Only supression will stop every summoner spell

It's one of the bigger reasons why Riot's so careful with it

NineTailedMysticMay 7, 201612 votes

You actually can remove a knock up by QSSing it, then using some sort of blink/dash after.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgIQtqIX3aw

The Blue JellyMay 7, 20161 votes

That.... feels like a glitch.

Also cool, learned something today.

I like that it doesn't work on Poppy's knockup + push displacement because Poppy.

NineTailedMysticMay 7, 20162 votes

I feel like it's because all knockups/knockbacks have a stun attached to them so you can't do anything during them while the displacement prevents movement, so if you cleanse the stun the mobility spell overrides the displacement. Just my theory.

The Blue JellyMay 7, 20161 votes

That might work, but then, why does Poppy block it when Ree Singa's kick doesn't?

On top of that, oh god, Poppy blocks it but Lee's kick doesn't. That means either the "towards base" logic prevented them from being able to use the displacement effect they have built in code for (and did it correctly this time), or that means they custom implement most effects every single time they need them.

The former I could understand, but my cynicism and experience with Rito code bugs in the past is pretty sure it's the latter. Greetings from someone who's been here since season 1.

Side question, would it work on Singed's Fling?

NineTailedMysticMay 7, 20161 votes

Probably, but Voli flip/Singed flip are short enough, it probably wouldn't even be worth it.

The Blue JellyMay 7, 20162 votes

Worth it? Probably not, but the reason I ask is I know you can't flash Singed's fling, but can Ali's knockback, and they had to change Ali's knockback to fix it.

I would say "Oh, it works on push, not pull", but...

Wait, Blitz, you still got pulled but could immediately get out before he could upercut.

What if it works on push, and Poppy's thing is implemented as a pull effect from your nexus?

I might have to test if it works on Singed's fling.

Sorry, I'm a programmer professionally, figuring out how things are coded without looking at the code nerd snipes me haha

NineTailedMysticMay 8, 20164 votes

Poppy's may not work because you're untargetable during the whole thing, whether she charged it or just tapped it.

manbearswineMay 8, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Blue Jelly,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yd8pdatU,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-05-07T20:48:28.285+0000)

Stun > Charm = Fear

No.

Charm>stun>fear, pulling an enemy towards your team is a strength( yes sometimes you want to kite the guy, but it still slows, and the pros outweigh the cons), could even be argued that depending on the case charm > knockup.

The Blue JellyMay 8, 20161 votes

This tier list is based on universality of disable:

Fullness of Disable (as in what actions can the champion still do while effected)
Situational Reliance (as in preference towards engage or disengage)
Resistability (as in how hard is it to get out of)

Reason being, designing a situation where any one effect is exactly what you need is easy. Having an effect that is good in every situation is hard.

Tier 0 vs Tier 1:

Both completely disables all control. Both are strongly viable for both Engage and Disengage.

Tier 1 may be cancelled by QSS directly Tier 1 may be cancelled by the Source Unit's death Tier 1 may be resisted by Tenacity

Tier 0 either ignores QSS or requires additional actions to cancel with QSS Tier 0 is never cancelled by the Source Unit's death Tier 0 is never resisted by Tenacity

Knockup is the only CC that matches everything I listed. Charm has a preference to engage, is cancelled by QSS, is affected by Tenacity, and is cancelled by the Source Unit's death.

Tier 1 Internal

All three completely disable all control.

All three are viable for both Disengage and Engage, as Charm and Fear lower movement speed. However, there is preference:

Engage power as: Charm > Stun > Fear
Disengage power as: Fear > Stun > Charm Stun is second best at both, Charm and Fear both take one first and one third. Accounting for this, we get Charm = Stun = Fear

Then we look at how you can remove it. All three are cancelled by QSS All three are affected by Tenacity Charm and Fear (NOT Stun) are cancelled if the source unit dies.

This puts Stun > Charm = Fear.

manbearswineMay 8, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Blue Jelly,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yd8pdatU,comment-id=0000000000050000,timestamp=2016-05-08T22:08:12.764+0000)

This tier list is based on universality of disable:

Yes, and universally pulling a guy towards you in most cases is better than him staying in place or than him turning away from you.

Fullness of Disable (as in what actions can the champion still do while effected)

Situational Reliance (as in preference towards engage or disengage)

Resistability (as in how hard is it to get out of)

Reason being, designing a situation where any one effect is exactly what you need is easy. Having an effect that is good in every situation is hard.

Tier 0 vs Tier 1:

Both completely disables all control. Both are strongly viable for both Engage and Disengage.

Tier 1 may be cancelled by QSS directly Tier 1 may be cancelled by the Source Unit's death Tier 1 may be resisted by Tenacity

Tier 0 either ignores QSS or requires additional actions to cancel with QSS Tier 0 is never cancelled by the Source Unit's death Tier 0 is never resisted by Tenacity

Knockup is the only CC that matches everything I listed. Charm has a preference to engage, is cancelled by QSS, is affected by Tenacity, and is cancelled by the Source Unit's death.

Tier 1 Internal

All three completely disable all control.

All three are viable for both Disengage and Engage, as Charm and Fear lower movement speed. However, there is preference:

Engage power as: Charm > Stun > Fear

Disengage power as: Fear > Stun > Charm Stun is second best at both, Charm and Fear both take one first and one third. Accounting for this, we get Charm = Stun = Fear

Then we look at how you can remove it. All three are cancelled by QSS All three are affected by Tenacity Charm and Fear (NOT Stun) are cancelled if the source unit dies.

This puts Stun > Charm = Fear.

The chances of the target dying and the scenario in which it plays out still makes charm stronger in most cases, you can focus on these minor disadvantages of charm as much as you want, pulling an enemy towards you is just outweighs that in most cases, ergo charm is better.

Onkel MalteMay 7, 201617 votes

First of all it is 23-6 seconds (which is still ridiculously short in for a kind of damage and cc reducing passive.)

Second, his jungling is the weirdest stuff because he actually was designed as a laner.

His silence was reduced to make it spamable - which is genuinely bullshit

But please don't whine about the ultimate. It does %health damage to be less effective on squishy carrys. If you do the math it is just a tiny bit stronger than his original W-Zone.

And no one ever feared a W cast from Malzahar. They always walked right through it.

VerandureMay 7, 20166 votes

He was designed so that jungle would still be a viable role for him.

SpecterVonBarenMay 8, 201614 votes

Meanwhile, Kassadin balls his fists in rage seeing his arch nemesis attain the heights of power he once had.

AírMay 8, 201612 votes

First Kassadin, now Malzahar. Looks like finding the void really does make mortal creatures extremely powerful.

TecniacMay 8, 20167 votes

Maybe is the fact people dont buy item 3140 and people just wait the voidling swarm them.

Maybe is the fact people just dont AUTOATTACK him while he is in passive, and then wait he suffer the seconds to charge it.

Maybe is the fact people dont go out of his pool.

JustMonika13May 8, 20161 votes

This is literately me with Yasuo. Maybe the fact is people don't buy QS when Yasuo ults to escape suspension (yes, once he suspends you, it's considered a clean suspend stun, meaning once you QS it you can attempt to run or retaliate while Yasuo's stuck in animation). Maybe the fact is people can't dodge one of the thinnest skillshots in the game. Maybe

Maybe the fact is people don't autoattack his shield away so he won't have anything to be able to block damage with. Maybe they don't bait out his W.

Maybe the fact is people stay inside of their damn minion waves expecting to remain safe...

Then again, I really really don't want to deal with Malz period, pre or post rework.

TecniacMay 8, 20161 votes

You dont want to deal with him just cause him is the assasin of assasins par excellence, Zed Fizz Katarina Yasuo Akali , etc are DEAD in all the game vs him, cause the poke with E, and R when try to gap (Except Talon , cause reasons)

Thats why Malz is a good pick now (and before), thats why Malz is so hated. People mainly play Assasins and ADCS (popular picks), and ... who eat both easily? Malzahar

http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=champion-popularity&range=weekly&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=ranked

OP Garen SupportMay 8, 20166 votes

As a Malzahar main I can say he was always good, but nobody played him. Now people know he is good and everyone bans him. His jungling is superior to his laning, thats the only problem with him right now. Just gut his jungling and stop overnerfing his normal play style.

TecniacMay 8, 20161 votes

This.

Just a good champion, with a good kit, never overpowered (he could solo dragon at lvl 3 easily with his old voidling, just with blue)

blessthekellenMay 8, 20164 votes

Giving her a basically permanent free spell shield is effing ridiculous however.

TecniacMay 8, 20161 votes

Easy fo fix, just increment cd in late (10s instead of 6) or scaling damage reduction (60-90% for example)

blessthekellenMay 8, 20164 votes

Why should any champion have a free spell shield? Thats the problem here. It makes an immobile mage far too safe. Theres no high risk high reward here. Its simply pick and win.

Chad ChadlainnMay 8, 20165 votes

I don't like this patch. Malzahar is in a state where he's going to get nerfed to the ground and become unplayable, and that means I'm going to be down a main. They should tinker with his passive and that's it. He's already incredibly weak compared to his old self when it comes to damage that isn't from his voidlings. No ult damage, his e's potato unless you're constantly refreshing it with Q, silence is weaker.

I do like how they shifted his power, though. He is now scary even without his ult. I actually think about my voidlings aside from beginning the game. It is just that if they try to bullshit him out of damage and other things that aren't the problem, then what will he have?

deadlychuckMay 8, 20161 votes

I agree it was good for them to shift the power away from his ult, but how they made the voidlings and W amount to almost all of the power in hit kit feels terrible.

In the end i really wouldn't care if he was nerfed into the ground if he was still any fun to play, but he isn't anymore. He's only fun so long as he's OP. Once they inevitably bring his W in line he will be just a shadow of his former self. In terms of both power and fun.

Karma DeifiedMay 9, 20162 votes

Somehow, they thought that preserving Malzahar's playstyles meant only preserving the AD Malzahar voidling playstyle. And they even screwed that up by making the AP voidlings miles better.

DengedenMay 8, 20164 votes

The problem is no one will admit that an AP champion was strong at some point.

TeslabladeMay 8, 20164 votes

Long-time Malzahar player here: I definitely wanted the rework, but all of his oppresive aspects have been amplified. I have now quit League.

nintentwinsMay 8, 20164 votes

I have 85k mastery with Malzahar , but that was BEFORE the rework.

now i cant even play him, it SUCKS having one of your mains go so far into FotM that you cant even play him anymore, and get hate when you do get to play him. Also i haven't even tried him jg yet, but i can tell it's EXTREMELY broken.

they need to just bring back that change they had on pbe that was reverted, im talking about the one that made it so they dont spawn more voidlings against monsters.

No matter how much less damage riot makes voidlings do to monsters, the fact still stands, that:

with 6 spawned very quickly, all with over 1.0 attack speed, for 6 attacks every seccond, combined with your E, and the fact that they will tank ALL the damage.

I'm sorry Riot, but no matter how low thier damage is against monsters, thier still attacking so much that it will shred camps anyway, and Malzahar will stay an EXTREMELY safe jg, cuz he will never tank damage on camps, the voidlings will.

He needs a BIG nerf to his jungle game, but we dont wanna gut his mid in the process, as currently, that isn't nearly as much of a problem.

I just want nerfs so I can play my mid main again, IN MID!!! this is way too much xP.

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

deadlychuckMay 9, 20162 votes

The worse part of it all is that broken or weak, the new malz just isn't fun to play anymore (as a malz main myself). They kept the one part of his kit that i enjoyed then simplified it to the point that it's boring.

I've said this time and time again, the new reworked kit is mechanically broken. You can't balance it ever! It will forever be in flux between being useless or completely insanely powerful.

Riot failed in pretty much every way with the malzahar rework, almost 100% because of the voidlings.

IMO, because they will never admit to fucking up and revert the rework, i proposed they swap his passive for his W. Turn his W into a kind of fiora W. And return his passive to a state which allows for a couple of strong voidlings rather than a swarm of weak ones.