@Riot - Any Planned Changes for Rabadon's Deathcap?

The Yetii Rider·Jan 31, 2017·19 votes·1,352 views

When blue buff lost its AP, and Rylai's Crystal Scepter got nerfed, one idea Riot floated to keep Mage damage stable was a buff to Rabadon's Deathcap. The changes to Deathcap a few years ago were designed to discourage it as a Rush item but now people rarely even build it at all.

With all the utility other final items offer I wonder if flat AP will ever be desired again, no matter how much is offered. Even Mejai's Soulstealer gives mana now. Could we add something to it to give it more of an oomph?

27 Comments

Leaf of the lakeJan 31, 201711 votes

If anything, the problem with deathcap right now is its build path + combine cost. As a multiplier item, it's best gotten later in the game, but you can't buy it 6th or you're forced to sit on a NLR for 2550 gold - almost as much as another full item. As such, you have to get it either 4th or 5th. There's usually other items competing for your time as 4th item, and as 5th you already are forced to shift the amp tome into the combine cost. As a result, the already steep 1265 combine cost becomes a downright ridiculous 1700 when bought as a 5th item.

The item would probably feel a lot better to buy if it built out of two NLR instead, leaving it at "only" a 1300 combine. The reason riot originally gave for the current recipe is that "by building out of smaller components, it offers a behind midlaner pieces they can buy in the meantime while catching up." Unfortunately, this rationale was flawed; no one wants to buy deathcap as a rush item, and building out of smaller components just serves to hurt it later on.

Meep ManFeb 1, 20176 votes

Rabadon's is a nuclear bomb so be careful when suggesting changes to it. Too big of a buff and AP champions deal too much damage. Too little and it's meaningless. Give it something more than flat AP (excluding something meaningless like 200 Mana) and it is permapicked. Careful careful...

KarhtelFeb 1, 20171 votes

It just needs an active veigar ultimate. #balanced

The Yetii RiderFeb 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chicken Dynasty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s9xmePQt,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-02-01T03:08:19.362+0000)

Rabadon's is a nuclear bomb so be careful when suggesting changes to it. Too big of a buff and AP champions deal too much damage. Too little and it's meaningless. Give it something more than flat AP (excluding something meaningless like 200 Mana) and it is permapicked. Careful careful...

Well, maybe a defensive passive like Rylai's had? Something like "20% of the magic damage you deal becomes a shield for 1.5 seconds". Spell vamp that's useful for everyone without being toxic in lane.

RedesignatedFeb 1, 20175 votes

Then that literally becomes permapicked.

The Yetii RiderFeb 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Then that literally becomes permapicked.

As opposed to Luden's Echo, which is permapicked simply for the AP/price.

RainbowIceeFeb 1, 20173 votes

Its too expensive and offers nothing of bonus building it aswell as no extra abilities besides an Ap scaling boost. Look at morello's. Mana, cd, gw, and 100ap. Scepter = dmg buff, mr, cdr, and ap. Ludens = ap, movement speed, extra scaling dmg. Hourglass= stasis, ap, armor, cdr. You get these benefits as a final item and some of them building the item. While deathcap = AP. Hell building a linch bane i think gives you a higher dps multiplier by auto attacking after a spell than getting the death cap. The proc from lynch bane would be a sweeter dmg than the dmg gained from death cap.

ElikainFeb 1, 20171 votes

It is expensive and for a reason. It amplifies your AP by a huge amount, which means that it's not meant to be the first purchase. In case you weren't around, Zhonya's Ring existed at one point in time where it had both the Hourglass's effect and offered 25%AP boost , for low low price of 3460 gold (340 g less than Rabadon's).

That item was split in two because it was just too strong on it's own and crazy gold efficient. Zhonya's effect was already worth it as a first purchase and more and more AP dumped after it (Deathfire Grasp probably) only made mages scale even more with less items.

RainbowIceeFeb 1, 20171 votes

I know this but it's just expensive in 2 means, 1 it offers no bonus building it besides AP, and 2 it is just expensive. Ofcourse you'd want to get it as one of your last items but it takes a while to get it and it holds off slots for something that could offer good utility. Maybe i'm alone, but i'm down for maybe a nerf in the AP to reduce the price or maybe even increase the price a little but add in a mini death cap item (?) like an item that would amp your ap by like 10% - 20% depending on champion level this way the burden of building it feels lighter.

ElikainFeb 2, 20171 votes

I don't know, never really thought Rabadon's was in a bad spot when it came to its price. Basically, it's the only true AP item that is strictly amplifying the AP you're buying, essentially making every AP purchase more gold efficient. That's on top of giving you a hefty 120 raw AP. Just because of that, it's worth the price. I don't believe every item should have some sort of utility effect. 35% AP amp is a pretty high conversion.

That's just my opinion, though. Maybe its effect can be passive like "for one spell once every 120 seconds, ignore half of the champion's MR". However, the formula for magic penetration may in some cases, along with % MR pen, reduce target's MR to ridiculously low value, essentially doing almost full spell damage. Not sure if that's an effect worth having, if it can bypass natural itemization to counter magic damage. Then burst champs like Veigar might become really popular one-shotters. Mages on the other hand, don't seem like they need a new item to tie them over, they are reasonably strong at the moment.

SnowFallFeb 1, 20172 votes

The combine cost has to be lowered by 100g and the build path should consist of two NLRs only.

KarhtelJan 31, 20171 votes

I feel like tons of champions still build rabadons as a core item. Almost every ap mid is gonna build a death cap at some point. Im not saying it shouldnt get a buff but i dont think it needs one. It's numbers are fine and i dont think it should give mana. I like it's place as just a pure ap item

RedesignatedJan 31, 20176 votes

"Almost every" is a gross exaggeration. A lot of AP champions can and do build it, but it's far from constant.

Also, I don't think OP was suggesting giving it mana, they were bringing up the point that AP items in general bring more to the table than just the AP now.

KarhtelFeb 1, 20172 votes

Fair enough i did exaggerate there lol. Personally i think deathcap is in a good place. But i would be interested to see if riot had something they wanted to add to it. Maybe give it something unique the last thing we need is another cdr item lol

RedesignatedFeb 1, 20175 votes

YOU NOW GAIN BONUS COOLDOWN REDUCTION THE MORE AP YOU HAVE

KarhtelFeb 1, 20175 votes

NOT THE CHANGE WE WANT BUT THE CHANGE WE NEED

Bishasaurus FlexFeb 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

YOU NOW GAIN BONUS COOLDOWN REDUCTION THE MORE AP YOU HAVE

To a maximum of...

10%

Light UpFeb 1, 20171 votes

tldr; it's way too expensive, and as mentioned, the items it takes to build it are all items that only give flat AP and nothing more--which isn't TOO useful

RedesignatedFeb 1, 20171 votes

At this point I'd just ease up on how terrible the build path is, make it cheaper, and cut the AP multiplier but give it some kind of time scaling like RoA has. That way you can either get it early and have it be an investment that won't be absolutely horrific to lane against, or get it late and basically be getting a bunch of extra AP anyways even if the time-scaling hasn't kicked in yet. Hell, you could even make the AP multiplier scale with champion level instead of time owned, if you really wanted.

5000000000000000Feb 1, 20171 votes

The identity of Deathcap is damage multiplier, so that should probably be preserved. Maybe it can be an active item that gives extra AP? Maybe give it flat magic pen, to make it more powerful against squishies over tanks, and have a reason to be picked over Void Staff? Maybe it makes you pay for your spells with hp, or restore HP upon takedown to re-imagine "Deathcap?"

Critmaster GarenFeb 1, 20171 votes

mages arent struggling right now. except for certain outliers like Fiddlesticks Karthus AurelionSol who have issues for entirely different reasons than the lack of ap itemization.

why buff deathcap for no reason?

if they do that, then they can also give item 3065 its 15 mr/10% cdr and item 3102 its 200 health back and nerf the base damage on the reworked mage abilities. again, youre only seeing the ap reduction on some items without all the positive changes that came with it.

The Yetii RiderFeb 1, 20171 votes

Why buff Deathcap for no reason? Because it used to be the go to item. It's THE Mage item, most AP assassins don't have good enough scalings to use it.

The item was core on every Mage for what, five seasons? It doesn't feel good that this item went from core to trash. The reason to buff it is because it was over nerfed.

If we have to nerf RoA, Ludens or some other item to compensate that's fine. Deathcap deserves a spot more than Ludens anyway.

Critmaster GarenFeb 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s9xmePQt,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-02-01T18:49:27.418+0000)

Why buff Deathcap for no reason? Because it used to be the go to item. It's THE Mage item, most AP assassins don't have good enough scalings to use it.

The item was core on every Mage for what, five seasons? It doesn't feel good that this item went from core to trash. The reason to buff it is because it was over nerfed.

If we have to nerf RoA, Ludens or some other item to compensate that's fine. Deathcap deserves a spot more than Ludens anyway.

the item is nowhere near trash. its a big powerspike picking it up. you have no other source of that much raw ap.

i really dont see a reason to mess with deathcap and the balance of a whole class of champions, when those champions are not having trouble being relevant right now.

RainbowIceeFeb 1, 20171 votes

I don't feel fiddle is suffering that bad, maybe adjust the skills to work better on monsters? like fear should aoe fear monsters in the direction he fears, or have the crow bounce off more often on a feared target, like brands ult on a burned target.

SpoofghoulFeb 1, 20171 votes

item 3089 now has an upgrade

rabadabababadabadons Doom hat

4k gold 125 ap 10% CDR passive increases all ap by 40% Passive gain mana equal to ap unique passive mana barier, when taking more then 10% of hp damage half of it is dealth to manapool instead

LadyRenlyFeb 1, 20171 votes

I think Veigar is the only ap I even bother with deathcap. There are too many important ap items that serve a specific function I just don't have room for it, and some champions have too many essential items like Kassadin.

JoeMGFeb 1, 20171 votes

Agree that the build path should be tweaked to make it more gold efficient. Currently I've been playing Orianna and building deathcap 3rd or 4th depending how well I'm doing. Not sure if I'm supposed to, but I do.