Unpopular Opinion: Pen stats are why Burst is so strong.

Ragnaveil··7 votes·3,176 views

Alternative Title to this post: Pen Stats: The primary supporter of the burst meta. TL;DR: The increase and changes to pen stats (specifically Armor Pen) has made burst very strong and rampant.

Yes, i'm saying that correctly. Burst isn't solely the huge issue, Pen stats are a reason for making it a huge issue. This is why I say this: Currently there are a good amount of pen items that exist in the game, for both AD and AP (More on the AD side) AD:item 3147 item 3814 item 3142 item 3071 item 3036 item 3033 AP:item 3020 item 3165 item 3135

However some changes (One of which is from last year) combined with more access to bonus damage, has created this world we live in, a world of burst or be bursted. 7.22 saw item 3135 gain 5% more Magic pen, putting it at 40%. 8.11 (One of the midseason patches) saw item 3035 items have their percent changed in effectiveness,** from bonus armor pen to total armor pen** (Mortal Reminder then got a increase to put it at 25%). People kinda shrugged the change off as not a factor to much, when in fact it was a huge buff to ADs, but more importantly, AD assassins. Lethality and Armor Pen has been a weakness to assassins for quite some time. They either did too much or too little in most cases. Before the midseason change, they were not as strong as perceived. With the switch to Total Armor Pen on LW, they finally had something that would weaken a target's armor amount (Old one barely did much for them vs squish) before their Lethality kicked in (because % is applied first). Not only that, but they could theoretically get through tanks easier than before, where they struggled. But i'm pretty sure these items weren't the only type changed.** In fact, I believe that the % stats were changed for anything that had % pen on it, meaning Darius and Garen's armor shred is total and not bonus. Same with item 3071.** Before, I'm pretty sure their pen was bonus and not total, which explained Darius' huge weakness to tanks last season. Most of the boards talk about AD assassins, so to make my point I will use them in an example. Conqueror is also another thing that helps champs bypass armor and magic resist stats (hybrid damage dealers like Jax heavily benefit from it, which made the overall goal an overshot) (May or may not be exactly 100% spot on. Hard to calculate in a theoretical situation) Lucian has 79 base armor at level 18. He usually would build item 3026 and item 3047 vs AD assassins, raising his armor to 139. Most Zed builds have item 3142, item 3147, and item 3071 as a core, giving him 39 Lethality and (item 3071 max stack) 24% armor pen. Late game he would pick up item 3036 to up his pen amount, to 39 Leth and 59% (with item 3071 max stack) Armor Pen. What does this all mean? So Zed fights Lucian, and here's how his damage will go: Intially, the 35% armor pen from item 3036 will lower Lucians armor down to 90.35. If he full stacks item 3071 (since it would apply after Dom theoretically) on him, it lowers the armor down to 37.04. Zed likes to run Sudden Impact, which grants him 7 Lethality for 5s if he comes out from stealth or uses a dash, leap, blink or teleport. This ups his Lethality number to 46. At level 18 its a 1 to 1 ratio, meaning he ignores 46 of Lucian's remaining 37.04 armor, putting him at -8.96 armor (aka true damage). If Sudden Impact is down Lucian's Armor is at - 1.96 instead. This means Zed's burst cannot be mitigated by Lucian's armor, therefore making Lucian take full damage from Zed. That's if item 3071 is stacked. Without item 3071 stacked, Lucian's armor will be at 43.65 with Sudden Impact involved, and 50.65 without it. That puts Lucian at his level 10 base armor stat. Either way Zed's burst will severely chunk him. If the percent pen wasn't changed, Zed wouldn't be able to burst Lucian heavily through his 139 armor.

So, what could be changed? (Not all of them at once, just which would work the best)

  1. Well, maybe lowering the % on items like Void and the two Last Whisper items would be a good start.
  2. Nerf Sudden Impact (lower the stats but maybe buff the duration (idk)).
  3. Subtract 3 Lethality from Ghostblade, 6 from Duskblade, and none from Edge of Night. These are ideas, but the point is to not gut pen stats, but make them not as strong as they are now. If anyone else has an idea, feel free to pitch it down below in the comments. (EDIT) Post is mainly about Leth atm since mages as a whole are alright, but kinda close to being over the top with a few changes if they happen to occur. The AP stuff is just mentions now.

30 Comments

Death by Glamour8 votes

one day

one of these "unpopular opinion" threads

might contain

an unpopular opinion

Ragnaveil2 votes

Idk man, no one is talking about Armor Pen or Magic Pen. They are just saying burst. Remember when assassins wouldn't build Lord Dominics or Mortal for that percent armor pen that would apply before lethality? I do. Kinda tells you how much one simple change affected an entire class (AD Assassins). Everyone says burst itself is the issue. I say its Pen, aka the unpopular one.

Even2 votes

Uh its actually less common now to build last whisper on assassins. Used to be a core item on tons of fighters/assassins now its only popular vs tanks.

Ragnaveil1 votes

How is it only popular against tanks. I've mentioned this in this post, its TOTAL armor pen, not BONUS. This means it ignores % of the target's base armor now (along with whatever armor they build), where when it was bonus, it never equated it and only ignored % of the armor an AD would get from getting Tabis and GA.

Even1 votes

Its not on any assassins most popular builds

Ragnaveil1 votes

OP.GG looks at the first 3 items a person would build. And also people probably don't realize how this % pen for AD works compared to its previous rendition. The % change happened around the same time the AD changes came in, so it slipped through the cracks without people realizing it if I had to be honest.

Even1 votes

I looked at champion.gg which shows full completed builds.

Ragnaveil1 votes

The item likely doesn't show up because people don't really think of it as a general item. The time it was tied as a ADC item (bonus pen era) has made it generally a ADC item in the minds of everyone nowadays.

Even1 votes

Yeah its not popular. Thats what I was trying to say the entire time.

Ragnaveil1 votes

Which boggles my mind considering what the change opened up.

Rock MD1 votes

{quoted}

Idk man, no one is talking about Armor Pen or Magic Pen. They are just saying burst. Remember when assassins wouldn't build Lord Dominics or Mortal for that percent armor pen that would apply before lethality? I do. Kinda tells you how much one simple change affected an entire class (AD Assassins). Everyone says burst itself is the issue. I say its Pen, aka the unpopular one.

No lmao, old school Talon builds would be like, "Okay your core is Tiamat for the waveclear straight into Cleaver Ghostblade Last Whisper. If you could buy 5 last whispers, I would've done it and gotten challenger already."

Vekkna2 votes

You're sort of almost half right.

On the AP side, the burst is not necessarily because of pen itself but rather how it is configured. In other words, after the removal of MR runes, 33 flat mpen is too big of a power spike for 2600g. The solution here kills two birds with one stone: lower the pen on existing items and add a couple niche items with small mpen values.

This would increase the total amount of pen available to those who rely on it, but it would dramatically level off the power spikes caused by the early accessibility of high pen, low cost items.

On the AD side, the burst is a way bigger problem. If Zed comes back to lane with Duskblade and a mage comes back with a Frozen Heart, you can guess what happens. Zed has 21 lethality against ~140 armor, and Zed still walks away with a kill. Same deal with Talon. That's not balance issue with resists and pen.

Ragnaveil1 votes

I was talking in a general sense. The difference in burst between the two types are different in many ways, and you pretty much listed what they are. I was mainly on the focus (went into AP with not the correct set of info needed, so I had to scrap it in a edit) with what the boards mainly complains about, which is AD based burst. Graves however is very different from the reason, same with Talon and Zed: Their burst is unorthodox compared to other assassins of the same type.

Talon can bleed targets out effectively with the right skill ordering and strategy, Zed's R allows him to add extra unmitigated damage to the mark (which would then be mitigated, but enough damage would make defenses worthless), and Graves' passive bypasses the crit mod on Storm from the looks of it (not to mention one closeup shot full stacks black cleaver on a target). Add Dark Harvest to his auto, and you possess a shotgun that ends lives before they can retaliate.

PhearBunny1 votes

im not even concerned with AD assassin burst. Bruisers are bursting harder with Trinity+Titanic/Steraks.

Ragnaveil1 votes

In that case, Conqueror. I could have added that in, but again, I made this specifically around the trouble region that the boards always talks about. I've said it time and time again in some of my comments that Conqueror is a balance issue for bruisers.

F Ù Ń1 votes

Um. Conqueror does no damage first of all. It’s not in fact cancer. READ THE DESCRIPTION. IT DOESNT GIVE EXTRA DMG. YOU DO THE SAME DAMAGE, WITH PART OF IT BEING CONVERTED INTO TRUE DAMAGE. And not to mention the true damage is only like 4 or 5%.

Second, there are tons of Magic resist, but little to no magic penetration. You buy mr, and mages start throwing cotton balls instead of cannonballs. Now Assassins, Bruisers, and ADC. They all have lethality, enabling them to shred through armor. Damage is way too high on AD. Not AP. Keep mages the way they are. Burst Mages like Zoe and Lux are useless when enemy builds MR (Take it from a Zoe main). You are literally deleting their damage, and they have little to no way of countering it, when they can only buy 2 items. With Lethality, you can build Armor against a Yasuo, or Miss Fortune, and they’ll still be viable because of their lethality and armor penetration. Not to mention most defensive items that build against AP have extra dmg. Yet most armor items have no AP, nor attack damage.

That means AD champs will attack even harder, getting even more defensively, while AP champs are stuck buying defensive items that barely benefit their AP.

And don’t complain about Zhonya’s and Banshee. Banshee is only for CC. And the OP Ad equivalent would be SSG. Zhonya’s AD counterpart is GA. (Zhonya’s is better than GA, and its literally like the only viable AP defensive item)

Ragnaveil1 votes

{quoted}

Um. Conqueror does no damage first of all. It’s not in fact cancer. READ THE DESCRIPTION. IT DOESNT GIVE EXTRA DMG. YOU DO THE SAME DAMAGE, WITH PART OF IT BEING CONVERTED INTO TRUE DAMAGE. And not to mention the true damage is only like 4 or 5%.

First off, this isn't about Conqueror. Second it converts 20% of your damage into true damage, which will be very noticeable if you are a tank taking damage from a conqueror user.

Second, there are tons of Magic resist, but little to no magic penetration. You buy mr, and mages start throwing cotton balls instead of cannonballs. Now Assassins, Bruisers, and ADC. They all have lethality, enabling them to shred through armor. Damage is way too high on AD. Not AP. Keep mages the way they are. Burst Mages like Zoe and Lux are useless when enemy builds MR (Take it from a Zoe main). You are literally deleting their damage, and they have little to no way of countering it, when they can only buy 2 items. With Lethality, you can build Armor against a Yasuo, or Miss Fortune, and they’ll still be viable because of their lethality and armor penetration. Not to mention most defensive items that build against AP have extra dmg. Yet most armor items have no AP, nor attack damage.

I never said all the things at the bottom HAD to be implemented. Some of them actually make sense.

That means AD champs will attack even harder, getting even more defensively, while AP champs are stuck buying defensive items that barely benefit their AP.

Idk why, but its always mages playing the victim card nowadays, meanwhile the ADs have to sit in silence as Burst mages and Assassins run rampant in midlane. Void plus both M Pen items can easily get an AD user who only build the 2 damage mr items down to their knees (Lets not forget Deathcap, which boosts a user's AP, exists still).

And don’t complain about Zhonya’s and Banshee. Banshee is only for CC. And the OP Ad equivalent would be SSG. Zhonya’s AD counterpart is GA. (Zhonya’s is better than GA, and its literally like the only viable AP defensive item)

Pretty sure for the Banshee's part, you meant Edge of Night. Gage exists to counter burst, and the shield quickly dissolves the moment it activates (Which for gage requires the user to have a good amount of health to gain the benefits from it).

F Ù Ń1 votes

{quoted}

Idk why, but its always mages playing the victim card nowadays, meanwhile the ADs have to sit in silence as Burst mages and Assassins run rampant in midlane. Void plus both M Pen items can easily get an AD user who only build the 2 damage mr items down to their knees (Lets not forget Deathcap, which boosts a user's AP, exists still).

Well, mages are being oppressed by assassins. The best mid tier picks are all AD assassins. While they can straight out rush MR, I’m stuck playing a character where I need to buy items for flat out AP, not MP. So a YaSuO can basically survive 300 mana worth of abilities, and only take 50% dmg, while he does about 600 dmg. With no mana costs. With Talon, his 0-100 presence is still here, as he can still murder mages at lvl2 when they don’t have any resistances. Then they can build mr, get ad and mr, do more dmg, while mages don’t deal any damage. Mages cannot really come back after being dominated by the opposing mid laner. If you’re playing something like LeBlanc, ur to squishy to push someone, and u don’t have enough dmg. If you play someone like Azir, you do no dmg! It’s challenging to come back as a mage. As a AD champ, it’s easier. Especially ADC. I see some ADCs, they go 0/7, and wind up with 15/9. On the other hand, mages, they go from 0/7 to 2/15.

AD itemization is so much better than AP. Maybe it’s the AP picks that have been sitting in silence during Season 7, or during the Tank meta as well. RAB Adons is like the saving grace for mages. Most mages get their power spike from it too. That’s the only way for mages to comeback. While AD users have an entire array of items such as Life Steal, MR, Armor, Protection. I mean, AP doesn’t even have any sustain, other than item 3146 .

Spell Vamp:Why should mages get lifesteal, they do enough damage already! So let’s remove most, if not all of it. I mean, it’s not like most mages are squishy af.

Life Steal:Lets give bruisers sustain, and ADCs the ability to regain health for their damage. That way they can go into a fight and sustain themselves. The ADC class is squishy, so let’s give them massive sustain.

Ragnaveil1 votes

{quoted}

Well, mages are being oppressed by assassins. The best mid tier picks are all AD assassins.

http://prntscr.com/l64jq4 Like I agree on the fact Mages are not an issue, but I feel like at some point a change is gonna make them an issue. And the fact is Armor bypassing pen (IE, LW, Lethality and Conqueror) is godlike currently, which makes armor feel useless regardless of how much you buy, hence why I did an AD assassin as an example in the post.

SwiftKitten883 votes

{quoted}

Um. Conqueror does no damage first of all. It’s not in fact cancer. READ THE DESCRIPTION. IT DOESNT GIVE EXTRA DMG. YOU DO THE SAME DAMAGE, WITH PART OF IT BEING CONVERTED INTO TRUE DAMAGE. And not to mention the true damage is only like 4 or 5%.

Second, there are tons of Magic resist, but little to no magic penetration. You buy mr, and mages start throwing cotton balls instead of cannonballs. Now Assassins, Bruisers, and ADC. They all have lethality, enabling them to shred through armor. Damage is way too high on AD. Not AP. Keep mages the way they are. Burst Mages like Zoe and Lux are useless when enemy builds MR (Take it from a Zoe main). You are literally deleting their damage, and they have little to no way of countering it, when they can only buy 2 items. With Lethality, you can build Armor against a Yasuo, or Miss Fortune, and they’ll still be viable because of their lethality and armor penetration. Not to mention most defensive items that build against AP have extra dmg. Yet most armor items have no AP, nor attack damage.

That means AD champs will attack even harder, getting even more defensively, while AP champs are stuck buying defensive items that barely benefit their AP.

And don’t complain about Zhonya’s and Banshee. Banshee is only for CC. And the OP Ad equivalent would be SSG. Zhonya’s AD counterpart is GA. (Zhonya’s is better than GA, and its literally like the only viable AP defensive item)

u make some good points and some bad point.

item 3102 is an extremely good and useful item, item 3157 again is very useful, but not as much as item 3102 is

it gives much less raw stats.. 50 armor is worth damn near jack shit because of all the ways to bypass armor

to say we have a pentation issue is true. at least on the AD side.

building MR will save you until very late game and then most mages still have to CHOOSE between item 3135 and item 3089

build armor wont do jack shit unless u have the HP to back it up and or base stats to accompany it

for example

and yes BASE STATS matter

for example... Pyke with no item, AND no runes either has 130 base armor at lvl 18

if i pick a champ like Nidalee at lvl 18 i have 87 armor

i would have to have to spend 900 gold on 3x cloth armor to get what he has for FREE

and he loses absolutely NOTHING for it.. (and before u try to call me out on "he cant gain hp", your right, that's why has has a 96% efficient conversion from hp to AD) so if u want to make up for that last 4% sure,, but dont give him

4th in base armor 1st in armor per lvl 1st at max lvl armor 9th in base hp 5th in hp per lvl 4th in hp at max level 1st in lvl 18 mr 1st in armor per lvl

so at lvl 18 he has roughly 1760 gold over the average assasin AFTER he gets the 95% gold effcient AD conversion and at lvl 1... he has roughly a 480 gold lead worth of free stats.

you can read my whole analysis here

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/wHVT0teB-lets-discuss-pyke

this is why base stats matter

F Ù Ń1 votes

{quoted}

u make some good points and some bad point.

item 3102 is an extremely good and useful item, item 3157 again is very useful, but not as much as item 3102 is

it gives much less raw stats.. 50 armor is worth damn near jack shit because of all the ways to bypass armor

to say we have a pentation issue is true. at least on the AD side.

building MR will save you until very late game and then most mages still have to CHOOSE between item 3135 and item 3089

build armor wont do jack shit unless u have the HP to back it up and or base stats to accompany it

for example

and yes BASE STATS matter

for example... Pyke with no item, AND no runes either has 130 base armor at lvl 18

if i pick a champ like Nidalee at lvl 18 i have 87 armor

i would have to have to spend 900 gold on 3x cloth armor to get what he has for FREE

and he loses absolutely NOTHING for it.. (and before u try to call me out on "he cant gain hp", your right, that's why has has a 96% efficient conversion from hp to AD) so if u want to make up for that last 4% sure,, but dont give him

4th in base armor 1st in armor per lvl 1st at max lvl armor 9th in base hp 5th in hp per lvl 4th in hp at max level 1st in lvl 18 mr 1st in armor per lvl

so at lvl 18 he has roughly 1760 gold over the average assasin AFTER he gets the 95% gold effcient AD conversion and at lvl 1... he has roughly a 480 gold lead worth of free stats.

you can read my whole analysis here

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/wHVT0teB-lets-discuss-pyke

this is why base stats matter

You literally broke down my point, and made it sound better. I completely agree with everything you said!

LemurMonster1 votes

Burst mages & Assassins are really guilty of this.

Ragnaveil1 votes

Thats kinda the group of champs that have been in the ire of the community for most of the season. Darius got buffed when LW was changed (All bonus pen stats were changed to total arm pen, making him even more stronger of a lane bully. change was not documented for champs who had any stat like it.), and he's under the ire of the community for his lane bully power. But yeah, they are guilty because the stats were not carefully watched.

F Ù Ń1 votes

{quoted}

Burst mages & Assassins are really guilty of this.

Actually, it’s really not. Burst mages can be countered with CC and not to mention do nothing when faced against mr. If they build no MP, then they do no dmg. It’s AD Assassins that are the problem. They do as much burst damage as mages, and they have nearly 5 times the mobility of a mage. They each have an escape ability, a slow, a catch up, you name it. And you can’t build against them, unless you’re going tank. All items built against them do nothing because of lethality. You think getting 70 armor would do something? lol. It ain’t gonna do anything against AD assassins

LemurMonster2 votes

{quoted}

Actually, it’s really not. Burst mages can be countered with CC and not to mention do nothing when faced against mr. If they build no MP, then they do no dmg. It’s AD Assassins that are the problem. They do as much burst damage as mages, and they have nearly 5 times the mobility of a mage. They each have an escape ability, a slow, a catch up, you name it. And you can’t build against them, unless you’re going tank. All items built against them do nothing because of lethality. You think getting 70 armor would do something? lol. It ain’t gonna do anything against AD assassins

Doesn't mean squat if they are poke mages. Many tend to have cc in there own kits & some are guilty with point & click ones. They have too much damage & it will show once Assassins get nerfs sometime. I mean if they got rid this item 3095 they will simply dominate bot lane again.

Who Fed Ru1 votes

It's not the pen stats, Lethality actually is worse in early game than armor pen was.

Old item 3142 gave 20 armor pen, and back then 20 armor pen meant 20 armor pen, while the 18 Lethality it gives now are maybe 14 Armor pen on the early levels, and even on lvl18 it's less.

Same goes for Brutalizer that gave 10 Armor pen when you got it, while item 3134 maybe gives you 7-8 true Armor pen if you get it as first item.

The problem isn't and never was early penetration, but the lack of the old stat Runes makes it seem like it is because flat pen is much more effective on targets with almost no resistances.

Just adding base resistances again like they are planning to next season will probably fix a lot already.

FéliXXX1 votes

cmon dude lethality sucks nowdays you cant keep up with armor stacking till late i mean dusckblade and ghostblade get countered by seekers then you have bc with a rly bad pathing on the build and a bullshit way to stack the pen like you are zed you use all ur combo and then you get the pen ...assassins needs to farm till ldr so its the 4th item+boots and you are complaining about it? holy dude the problem here is the base dmg there is 234560 champ with a high base dmg and then you have zed with the rape ad on his ult that made him garbage.

Ragnaveil1 votes

So getting 20% cdr and some health with some AD is apparently a bad thing for Zed to have? Then why are Zeds still building it. His ult isn't shit considering he gains late game, 50% of pre-mitigation damage from his damage added to the mark popping damage. And pre-mitigation means before armor and magic resists, so lethality gets free extra power added on. Add the updated last whisper effects (the Armor % Pen calculates the target's base along with any other armor they have then leth applies onto that remaining number. My example explains it, with or without Black Cleaver being used.) and you have yourself an easy way of destroying people that dont have GAs or Zhonyas (You existing is that of Malz currently. Don't buy Qss and he will ult you. Same applies to Zed but with stasis items.)

FéliXXX1 votes

zed builds bc cos theres anything else to buy that gives u that cdr and its bad cos you take so long to get dmg out of it since u get so little if u dont have the full item and as an assassin everything that stop ur snowball is bad and the way the amor pen gets stacked is so bad for assassins

Ragnaveil1 votes

Right...its not the fact any type of physical damage application from him counts to stacking BC. He could easy full stack it (but on average get 3-4 of 6) by landing everything. Idk if you know that the LW items are not limited to ADCs now.

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