Tahm's toplane situation explains the complete lack of balance for toplane.

Ragnaveil·Jun 11, 2019·32 votes·12,505 views

Yeah, im heavily convinced considering he's a lazier version of Top Vik. You can't play any melee matchup into him without expecting your ass to do nothing for 15 minutes being constantly harassed by wide long Qs that apply a passive stack that decays so slow and decays per stack. I thought top vik was a hell of its own, but Top Tahm has not only taken that title but has surpassed it. So what does this have to do with toplane? Simple: They don't have any idea on how to keep the lane balanced without shit from other lanes coming in and breaking shit.

Top's roster is already huge enough (Largest in the game), and if you add champs that can also infiltrate the lane to cheese, it means a good half or more than half of the champions in this game can go top. Combine the TP nerf that made toplane become an island again, and we've come full circle minus the tanks (Tahm's practically a juggernaut). No other role has gotten shafted this fucking bad. Sure, jg's been shafted time and time again, but at least Riot does changes to help them from time to time. Mid and AD rarely go long without changes if shit is sour (Minus the Aftershock Fiasco). Support gets shafted for the most part, but they are at least stable in most aspects. Top is the fucking wild west.

Can we get some fucking order in our trainwreck of a lane for once? Please? Its very annoying when stuff like this happens and we are forced to wait almost months till it gets nerfed (meaningfully).

65 Comments

ŚhunpoJun 11, 201915 votes

Top lane balance can be summarised with two main aspects:

Each and every champion sent top lane is super cheesy and WILL decimate the opposing top laner if even one mistake is made. I'm not talking about a slight decimation here, I'm talking about a "Oh I died/lost control of the wave and now I lose the game until teamfights" kind of decimation. The lane is toxic like this with all the bruisers with Conq running around, and ranged top laners and picks such as Kled, Camille, Darius etc.
The jungle decides your lane past Gold-Plat elo. Pretty much, if your jungler doesn't address your priority in lane (whether it be you having priority or your opponent) then you just lose the game outright as you turn into a burden for your team. At least with mid and bot you can forfeit a tower and all that to potentially farm up....you can't do that for top lane, as what happens then is that you get dove repeatedly, you lose 3 towers and potentially inhib and you turn into a CC bot for your team, or you're forced into a desperation splitpush.

tl;dr Top lane is a toxic lane which Riot will never balance properly....oh, and it got shafted by the new runes and Shojin, so there's that too.

The KombinatorJun 11, 20195 votes

They could do it rather easily. Back in the day the inner turret gave a passive shield to nearby allies. I would like to have that system back.

Even if you are ranged countered you could keep at least the turret farm.
Enemy would have harder time to early dive you.
Because of the first two less jungler dependency.

It happens on bot too. If they manage to get 1 or 2 early kill, then lane lost beyond recover. Even worse, because support can keep constant warding, and with each dive they get 2 kill instead of one, and they often get easy dragon as bonus.

RagnaveilJun 11, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Top lane balance can be summarised with two main aspects:

Each and every champion sent top lane is super cheesy and WILL decimate the opposing top laner if even one mistake is made. I'm not talking about a slight decimation here, I'm talking about a "Oh I died/lost control of the wave and now I lose the game until teamfights" kind of decimation. The lane is toxic like this with all the bruisers with Conq running around, and ranged top laners and picks such as Kled, Camille, Darius etc.

The jungle decides your lane past Gold-Plat elo. Pretty much, if your jungler doesn't address your priority in lane (whether it be you having priority or your opponent) then you just lose the game outright as you turn into a burden for your team. At least with mid and bot you can forfeit a tower and all that to potentially farm up....you can't do that for top lane, as what happens then is that you get dove repeatedly, you lose 3 towers and potentially inhib and you turn into a CC bot for your team, or you're forced into a desperation splitpush.

tl;dr Top lane is a toxic lane which Riot will never balance properly....oh, and it got shafted by the new runes and Shojin, so there's that too.

People's solution is don't fight him, which honestly is very much the only thing you can do. He's so strong he's ranked 7th in Korea's toplane (OP.GG uses Korea Data) with 16th in pick amount. That's starting to create top vik 2.0.

ŚhunpoJun 12, 20191 votes

Yeah, which is a toxic solution. If "just don't fight him/her" applies to any champion facing something as oppressive as Tahm that's toxic. If it's a losing matchup that's kinda fine, but in this case it's just a backwards concept.

That's why I also think that champs like Yasuo, Darius and Renekton are just toxic by nature.

RagnaveilJun 12, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, which is a toxic solution. If "just don't fight him/her" applies to any champion facing something as oppressive as Tahm that's toxic. If it's a losing matchup that's kinda fine, but in this case it's just a backwards concept.

That's why I also think that champs like Yasuo, Darius and Renekton are just toxic by nature.

Darius' bleed should apply a debuff, not deal damage tbh. Yasuo is Yasuo, but Ren is able to be dueled, its just Spear removes a somewhat intended weakness. His late game cooldowns definately need adjustments so hes not absolutely useless, but Spear's just generally unhealthy. Riven is also a champ that falls under "just don't fight him/her" along with Fiora due to untuned amounts of damage (Fiora's is the fact % max health true damage is unhealthy as a mechanic).

RalanrJun 11, 20191 votes

The first aspect speaks to me on a personal level. Especially vs champions like Renekton.

And I've been fighting a lot of Renekton.

FSRERJun 12, 20192 votes

You are correct in most aspects except from 1 Bruisers are notthe ones that are running around with conqueror making the lane toxic, only Aatrox and Darius are left from the bruiser category that are viable above Gold. The only champions that make the lane toxic, as you said yourself, are ranged toplane picks and I add here, duelists, you know, Irelia, Fiora, Riven, Camille who can with little counterplay beat you in lane no matter if you build armor or not, due to their high in kit true damage (Riven as exception) and their high mobility make it impossible to deal with. I remember when tanks could actually tank 6 seconds of damage from champions that went fervor of battle while now, tanks can tank 4 max, no matter how much armor they have. What is the solution to this? Lower the crap down true damage ratios, to every champion who has it in their kit and can spam it (spamming true damage shouldn't even be allowed in the first place).

ThingamajigJun 11, 20196 votes

i just got smashed by a pyke top id always get him close to death unable to finish the kill and he would be at full hp 4 seconds later while slowly chipping at my health bar

i came close to killing him only 2 times other than that i got completely bodied the ryzes ive played against with phase rush do really well any champion with a gank setup irelia jax renekton their dmg combined with the junglers impossible to get out with a kill or to get out without flashing

balance? you want balance? stop meleeing him like a dumbass and play like you are supposed to play the damn lane finally a god damn tank is viable in top lane and everyone and their mothers is complaining about it

the fact that im seeing ryze and irelia players complain about this shit makes me vomit in my mouth a little i literally beat a tf 1v1 in which i had to not miss a single skill shot and stun him when he stuns me IE I HAD TO PLAY IT PERFECT and i still had to have a risky flash to have the chance at winning the 1v1 and he insta all chats "this shit is busted"

getting outplayed =/= op learn the difference

RagnaveilJun 11, 20199 votes

I mained tanks before they died, and this is the shit I dont want happening for their return: Being overly nasty to deal with, and pains in the general ass. Its the same grounds that got us gutted in the first place. I'd rather kill the toad than kill an entire class all over again.

ThingamajigJun 11, 20194 votes

{quoted}

I mained tanks before they died, and this is the shit I dont want happening for their return: Being overly nasty to deal with, and pains in the general ass. Its the same grounds that got us gutted in the first place. I'd rather kill the toad than kill an entire class all over again.

riot doesn't want them to be tanky so they are smashing damage into their kits im not saying i like tk killing people but it's honestly the only way a tank can be viable top

why would you pick a tank when irelia can 1v1 you throughout all points in the game without much effoty? why pick mao when jax can outheal your damage and kill you in 4 seconds

tanks really have no place in the current meta and if a tank has to be able to win every matchup in lane to be close to viable im fine with this playing with or against him im completely fine with this

SuperTopLFBottomJun 11, 20191 votes

{quoted}

riot doesn't want them to be tanky so they are smashing damage into their kits im not saying i like tk killing people but it's honestly the only way a tank can be viable top

why would you pick a tank when irelia can 1v1 you throughout all points in the game without much effoty? why pick mao when jax can outheal your damage and kill you in 4 seconds

tanks really have no place in the current meta and if a tank has to be able to win every matchup in lane to be close to viable im fine with this playing with or against him im completely fine with this

Then maybe tanks just shouldnt be able to solo lane. If the only way to make them viable is brainlessly smashing one interaction button off cooldown until they won laning phase against any opponent then maybe tanks in league are just shit design and shouldnt be allowed to solo lane.

Ofc you are fine with it considering your champ pool.

ThingamajigJun 11, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Then maybe tanks just shouldnt be able to solo lane. If the only way to make them viable is brainlessly smashing one interaction button off cooldown until they won laning phase against any opponent then maybe tanks in league are just shit design and shouldnt be allowed to solo lane.

Ofc you are fine with it considering your champ pool.

yes surprisingly i enjoy playing tanks but not because they kill people

i don't like sion winning lane because his base damage is insane or that even if you kill him his zombie punches for 20% of your health i don't like ornn slowly taking 1/4s of your health bar without counterplay i don't like shen taking half of your hp bar in cc and then running away in his dodge field i don't like maos 18% hp nukes in objective contests i don't like poppys 16% max hp qs i don't like garens 50% hp breakpoint ult execute just because you were not feeding like your other team mates

but with the current damage creep of adcs of mages and with the addition of conq sustain if a tank can't deal damage they are basically useless

Spicy RiceJun 11, 20191 votes

because tank's have a lot more potential to lock people down in teamfights compared to jax or irelia....

thats the whole point....

ThingamajigJun 11, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i0V2vLoW,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2019-06-11T16:34:50.066+0000)

because tank's have a lot more potential to lock people down in teamfights compared to jax or irelia....

thats the whole point....

do you really need to lock down the adc if you can kill them in your jump stun duration?? eqew>tiamat is a kill on any adc and if you can get an attack before you use your e you get the ult passive proc which is even more dmg to punch through the heal

jax during his ult has like 400 armor and if he has any mr item like 200 mr while building purely health and damage situational yes but with spear it doesn't matter because the fight ends before his ult ends

which one would you rather a champ that can 1 shot your backline alone while having sejuanis toughness or sejuani throwing an icy ball at your team?

AsudJun 11, 20195 votes

Thats the exact thing i've been saying. Tanks are diversion champs. Sabotage champs. Tanks job is to get so tanky that you want to roll in the teamfight and offer your champ as a target and if someone is dumb enough to take the offer you laugh at their face. Because there's not much they can do to you. But than again tanks should never be able to kill anyone in one rotation of spells. Top kench is like playing against riven 2 patches ago. There is nothing you can do unless she fucks up. But Kench cannot fk up because hes braindead simple champ.

RagnaveilJun 11, 20192 votes

I mean, he does the same thing Riven does right now period. Its just he has lesser cooldowns, and falls off late in terms of damage, thats kinda it.

RewtJun 11, 20198 votes

gonna be honest here. Kench is cancer. His kit makes my wanna jump out a window.

"Oh you were gonna kill my jungler who came to gank?" Nom.

"3 stacks in a close duel?" Nom.

"Tower Dive cause he has 50 hp?" Nom.

It's just such a toxic kit.

Id take almost any other top lane tank to be strong. Just fuck Kench.

Neumím RivenJun 11, 20191 votes

whenevr I play agaisnt him on top lane it makes me beat the shit the out of rito balance team. Arent they aware of him?

Midg3tJun 11, 20192 votes

{quoted}

balance? you want balance? stop meleeing him like a dumbass and play like you are supposed to play the damn lane finally a god damn tank is viable in top lane and everyone and their mothers is complaining about it

FFS finally some1 who understands that you cant win the lane by mindlessly smashing your head on the keyboard. Unfortunately season 8 and 9 made people stupid af and majority of players forgot how to play the laning phase.

Just by reading TK spells you can see how to play against him. Dodge his Q and dont let him get close to you. Pick champs who can do it with ease, and mid-late game he will be useless.

But again, unfotunately, its easier to bitch and moan than learning how to play the game.

ThingamajigJun 11, 20193 votes

{quoted}

FFS finally some1 who understands that you cant win the lane by mindlessly smashing your head on the keyboard. Unfortunately season 8 and 9 made people stupid af and majority of players forgot how to play the laning phase.

Just by reading TK spells you can see how to play against him. Dodge his Q and dont let him get close to you. Pick champs who can do it with ease, and mid-late game he will be useless.

But again, unfotunately, its easier to bitch and moan than learning how to play the game.

or stand in the minion wave or wave clear or freeze infront of your turret and call for ganks that tk can't escape from and since his kill timer is so long he can't contest a 2v1 unless already ahead

ie if you stay even and play the waves properly playing against tk is just as easy as playing against any other tank but if you melee him and play into his streangth you will get obliterated just like if you chase rengar into the 3 bushes top lane you are begging to get your butthole stretched

FioraWillCarryJun 12, 20192 votes

Actually the problem with him is that he can very easily force trades and you can never win them and the only way to prevent him from forcing trades is to yield control of lane. Even farming under tower vs him is painful. His extremely high damage poke forces you out of lane very quickly. As least this is my experience playing Fiora into him. I can't say for other champs, though I imagine many other top laners experience similar things.

Midg3tJun 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Actually the problem with him is that he can very easily force trades and you can never win them and the only way to prevent him from forcing trades is to yield control of lane.

And how can he exactly force the trade on you? Hit you with his Q? Dodge or use creeps as a meat shield. Hit you with his W? Does shitty dmg if he uses it on creeps, and wastes too much mana for doing that. Walk up to you? Dont let him do that, either cc him somehow or disengage, if u have disengage spells that is. Freeze the wave under your tower, w8 till min 30, he's useless now gg you beat TK

Even farming under tower vs him is painful. His extremely high damage poke forces you out of lane very quickly.

Dodge the spell.

As least this is my experience playing Fiora into him. I can't say for other champs, though I imagine many other top laners experience similar things.

This is exactly why people have issues with him. Instead of counterpicking him, every1're playing whatever they want and when they cant win, they bitch and moan. Sry to say bro but you cant expect to beat every champ by picking whoever you want and smash your head against the keyboard. You need to play smart. Instead of playing fiora, actually try to counterpick him. Take ranged champ into him that has some sort of mobility, poke or sustain.

Example: Vladimir Gnar Quinn Viktor all of them are either top laners or can be played top.

FioraWillCarryJun 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

And how can he exactly force the trade on you?

He stands in front of his wave, right behind my minions, if I try to farm, he starts autoing, swallows spits me out in his wave, and boom, I'm dead at that point. If I try to run, he chases until I'm clear of my minions so I can't use them to body block, then he slows with Q, walks up, autos some more, swallow, spit and boom, I'm dead.

In all melee matchups it's common for champions to force trades like that but the only difference, is that you will never win a trade against him. You can't outplay him, out damage him or outrun him.

Dont let him do that, either cc him somehow or disengage

The only way I've found to "not let him do that" is not to attempt to farm at all.

Dodge the spell.

You can't dodge the spell and last hit at the same time. He's in no hurry. He has zero problems waiting for you to last hit before using his Q.

This is exactly why people have issues with him. Instead of counterpicking him, every1're playing whatever they want and when they cant win, they bitch and moan.

I don't need to win. I need to be able to farm. I'm fine just farming it out until later in the match.

Midg3tJun 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

He stands in front of his wave, right behind my minions, if I try to farm, he starts autoing, swallows spits me out in his wave, and boom, I'm dead at that point. If I try to run, he chases until I'm clear of my minions so I can't use them to body block, then he slows with Q, walks up, autos some more, swallow, spit and boom, I'm dead.

So he's basically asking your jungler to come and kill him xd thats even better for you actually, assuming your jg knows how to play. But since youre talking about the situation where Tahm knows how to deny your farm, your jg prolly knows when to gank some1. But if thats not the case, again, play ranged tops like Gnar.

In all melee matchups it's common for champions to force trades like that but the only difference, is that you will never win a trade against him. You can't outplay him, out damage him or outrun him.

3rd time, play ranged champions then. He has no gapclosers, no way to engage on you if he misses his Q and the only poke is his Q. So naturally champs like gnar SHOULD be able to stand their own against Tahm. The fact that no1 realises that baffles me..

The only way I've found to "not let him do that" is not to attempt to farm at all.

Gnar Viktor Vladimir

You can't dodge the spell and last hit at the same time. He's in no hurry. He has zero problems waiting for you to last hit before using his Q.

I never said you should do it both at the same time lol. And thats impossible since he has cooldown you know? He's not an URF champ. And he wont always be in the position to hit you nor he will be able to actually land his Q when he can. You wont play against fucking faker man, you will play against soloQ dog xD And they wont play perfectly....hell, they wont play good for the most part.

I don't need to win. I need to be able to farm. I'm fine just farming it out until later in the match.

tbh you sound like youre mad because you cant win against tahm as fiora and instead of adapting youre complaining.

Improvise. Adapt. Overcome. ---> do this and you will win against him.

ﬂooJun 11, 20192 votes

{quoted}

i just got smashed by a pyke top id always get him close to death unable to finish the kill and he would be at full hp 4 seconds later while slowly chipping at my health bar

i came close to killing him only 2 times other than that i got completely bodied the ryzes ive played against with phase rush do really well any champion with a gank setup irelia jax renekton their dmg combined with the junglers impossible to get out with a kill or to get out without flashing

balance? you want balance? stop meleeing him like a dumbass and play like you are supposed to play the damn lane finally a god damn tank is viable in top lane and everyone and their mothers is complaining about it

the fact that im seeing ryze and irelia players complain about this shit makes me vomit in my mouth a little i literally beat a tf 1v1 in which i had to not miss a single skill shot and stun him when he stuns me IE I HAD TO PLAY IT PERFECT and i still had to have a risky flash to have the chance at winning the 1v1 and he insta all chats "this shit is busted"

getting outplayed =/= op learn the difference

It's not good if a champ is viable top, just because he has no counter whatsoever and beats everybody in 1v1. Even if it makes a tank viable.

ThingamajigJun 11, 20192 votes

{quoted}

It's not good if a champ is viable top, just because he has no counter whatsoever and beats everybody in 1v1. Even if it makes a tank viable.

yes id much rather tanks be viable in terms of tankiness instead of kill pressure guess what most tanks have no kill pressure and are still paper TK is viable as a tank because he has the kill pressure and double health pool ie if either one of those stop being a thing TK will effectively drop out of the game

ﬂooJun 11, 20194 votes

{quoted}

yes id much rather tanks be viable in terms of tankiness instead of kill pressure guess what most tanks have no kill pressure and are still paper TK is viable as a tank because he has the kill pressure and double health pool ie if either one of those stop being a thing TK will effectively drop out of the game

I would rather have tanks viable too, without too much damage. This is what we've come to now.. so much damage that you're only viable if you deal more while tanking enough. Tahm is a prime example of what they shouldnt do with tanks right now.

radetariJun 11, 20195 votes

Yeah, I too like that supports, junglers, marksmen and mages can all go toplane, but champions played exclusively on toplane cannot go anywhere else, with a few exceptions like Camille, Trundle, Teemo and Panth (maybe new Morde)

I like how Poppy, Pyke, Tahm, Karthus, Vladimir, Vayne, Draven, Viktor, Shaco, Lee Sin, Rengar are still good in the lane they weren't designed for But that way, when you beat them in lane (very rare with Tahm and Rengar but it can happen) you get this surge of sadistic pleasure that they had when they locked in that shit

SaezioJun 11, 20191 votes

Tahm was designed as a sololaner. He wasn't designed as a support. Try again.

Yets4240Jun 11, 20193 votes

He was designed as both a support and a toplaner/jungler, then they gutted his ability to jungle, and then intentionally made his solo lane unviable, at the same time they buffed his support. All this within the first few months of his release.

SaezioJun 11, 20191 votes

I remember release tahm kench being played in the top-lane in pro play.

And if we go by this logic, then zyra is a support by design xD

Yets4240Jun 11, 20192 votes

You're missing the fact that he was always designed with his support role in mind, and that's why his strongest ability, Devour, was originally heavily tunes to be much better to use to save an ally than offensively on release. He would also rush items like item 3800 item 3109 item 3190 item 3110 and transition into a peeler/support for carries in teamfights-- even when played as a jungler or in solo lanes. They didn't like his solo lane and jungle performance so after his initial release, within the first few months, they gutted what made him strong solo, killed his damage to monsters, kept him from being able to W most monsters, changed his ult passive and dumpstered the HP -> on hit damage ratio, and generally forced him into not just being viable as a support, but only being viable if played as a support.

Zyra was designed as an AP burst mage, before they designed champions around roles and positions, and was balanced and played as a midlaner for over a year before she was nerfed to such a point that she fell out of mid lane, and it was several months after that before people in diamond + started picking her as a counter pick to certain META (at the time) supports.

Comparing the two is nonsensical especially in the manner you suggest.

SaezioJun 11, 20192 votes

Oh, you are right, for some reason I always think that zyra was released in season 3, when she was actually released mid 2012. I still see zyra as a "new champ" so I am like "no way she wasn't released just before s3 worlds".

My bad :)

Thanks for making great arguments and not flaming :)

JamlanceJun 11, 20194 votes

Tahm is op I admit, I used to play him top for a while then I stopped. Recently I picked up Tahm kench top again. I feel bad for using him against weak early champs. But Tahm Kench is almost useless after the 25-30 minute mark. His late game does not do any damage at all and he is not tanky enough to hard carry. he might be very op early game, but late game is trash tbh. With any cc on him, it's basically over.

Respect Women XDJun 11, 20194 votes

This is sad that champion useless on every other lane can stomp toplane, because this is how rito works

SaezioJun 11, 20194 votes

Meanwhile riven still has higher pick and winrates in diamond+ and even plat+

RagnaveilJun 11, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile riven still has higher pick and winrates in diamond+ and even plat+

She's not innocent either, but at least I can kill her if her "main" goes full r%%%%% and does everything wrong. A tahm that does things wrong usually can survive and kick my ass.

mack9112Jun 11, 20193 votes

If people want tanks in top lane to be viable this is the kind of kits you will encounter.

You have to learn how to trade correctly against him.

He is just like how old mao played top.

RagnaveilJun 11, 20193 votes

This guy is far from what Old Mao was. Mao cant even tank for a second without dying due to how gutted his durability is, but heres Kench boy with the best sustain of any tank and he got damage buffed.

mack9112Jun 11, 20192 votes

{quoted}

This guy is far from what Old Mao was. Mao cant even tank for a second without dying due to how gutted his durability is, but heres Kench boy with the best sustain of any tank and he got damage buffed.

Old mao with his ult that allowed him to take reduced damage was exactly what Tahm is now. Impossible to out trade with strong damage. The problem is for any champion to be viable they have to be good in lane but tanks are supposed to be bad at lane since there teamfight is suppposed to be good due to the ability to frontline and cc

Yets4240Jun 11, 20193 votes

Tanks are early game champions who lategame have over a half of their entire build rendered worthless, and moot by the stats and passive effects on carries items once they build so much as a single pen or percent HP damage item. Tanks, believe it or not, are actually at their strongest in early to mid game. They are supposed to win lane trades, but not have kill pressure. If they cannot win trades in lane, they will be useless, unpicked, forgotten champions like, oh, huh would you look at that. . . like 90% of tanks are currently. The idea that tanks should insta-loss lane against anyone who isn't a tank, and that they should be dogshit for the first 20 minutes, only to die in 1-3 seconds 20 minutes+ because they lose upwards of 50% of their armor in a fight, and take additional damage for the HP they've purchased, let alone getting focused in this brainless hyper damage meta where everyone 100-0s everyone else while missing 3/4s of their skills, where 2-3 members without any pen or % HP items can still 100-0 you through one hard CC as they just have that much fucking damage, is so goddamn asinine and mind-numbingly short sighted.

SanKakUJun 11, 20191 votes

You're not wrong and that's why for one: anti-tank items should be cheaper and for two: more tanks should be good.

Daddy AntsJun 12, 20193 votes

{quoted}

You're not wrong and that's why for one: anti-tank items should be cheaper and for two: more tanks should be good.

Anti Tank items shouldn't be cheaper.

If anything Void Staff is too cheap.

Yets4240Jun 12, 20192 votes

Anti tank items should be, and need to become AN INVESTMENT a niche counterbuild to fed and powerful tanks and juggernauts who you should have to SACRIFICE damage against squishies and other targets in order to more effectively bring down.

There shouldn't be three to five item 3071 per game when not a single tank is picked on either side. item 3035 item 3036 item 3033 item 3135 need to go back to being lower %, bonus resistance penetration so that they don't also offer a massive damage amp to targets with 100 or less resists, and should also lose some of their AD and AP, so they are not burst stat stick in addition to mitigating thousands of gold worth of enemies resistance (becoming cost effective off the passive alone, before other things like GW, or the raw damage they provide from stats)

Get to the point where defense actually means something, and to where a full armor build isn't instantly invalidated by a single offensive item, let alone stacking % shred, % pen, and lethality.

You can legitimately take a Rammus in DBC with 800 armor, and shred him down to under 110. Armor is a fucking joke because pen items are mathematically bullshit, on top of offense having quintic scaling returns, while defense gets linear return--- before factoring in penetration, after which they have terribly diminishing returns to scale. As an economist and statistician, the formulas behind LoL need to change; its obvious when you look at how the math plays out.

ThingamajigJun 12, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Anti tank items should be, and need to become AN INVESTMENT a niche counterbuild to fed and powerful tanks and juggernauts who you should have to SACRIFICE damage against squishies and other targets in order to more effectively bring down.

yeah riot made that and adcs were useless or were they? i can't remember an era where i was being evaporated faster during the late game than during the % bonus pen items (supposed adc nerf)

IE ignored 10% of my armor LW ignored 45% of my armor the BC top laner decreased my armor by 24% so a 69% of the armor i bought was deleted and 10% ignored so from 1k armor i would have 200 armor against 2 people that bought a 3k item each 800 armor worth 3k? and then tanks are OP pls nerf Yasuo would deal true damage to exclusive armor stacking tanks...

tanks way of dealing with this shit was through shielding and during that time thankfully it was the utility support meta and we had an abundance of shields

as you said Linear stacking of defenses will always be terrible against a % form of mitigation on top of the diminishing returns each armor value returns the higher the amount of defense goes

Thats why i want Riot to give actual ways for tanks to stay in fights instead of smashing damage into them or artificially giving them more stats (ornns 10% armor/mr passive for example)

SanKakUJun 12, 20191 votes

So why don't we have a cheaper version of Black Cleaver and make the overall cost of the final item more expensive? We don't have cheaper versions of Randuin's Omen and Morellonomicon either. But I would like to see those personally.

StahlvormundJun 11, 20193 votes

I highly doubt there are no melee toplaner that win lane against Tahm Kench. Yorick, Mordekaiser, Volibear, Fiora would come to my mind.

FioraWillCarryJun 12, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Fiora would come to my mind.

Nope. Fiora loses this match-up very hard.

Bionic AvianJun 11, 20192 votes

I've actually had to stop playing top lane altogether. I enjoyed it as a role, and I was beginning to expand my champion pool (got into it with Illaoi originally as my only top laner,) but with how neglected it feels and anti-fun I just swapped to support so I could actually do something useful for my team to help them out.

I understand balance is hard, but when I play against cheesy lanes like TK top, I lose my marbles. I've banned him every game since I played against him just so I don't see him in my games anymore because of how silly and unhealthy his kit is right now.