[HYPOTHESIS] What if Sightstone was completely removed from the game?

darkdill·May 28, 2015·17 votes·1,722 views

#This is just to theorize, so put down your pitchforks and torches!

With Greater Stealth Totem being essentially superior at vision control, Sightstone seems overshadowed. Yet every support still gets it as a mandatory thing, killing a lot of their own power with a highly slot-inefficient item that has a (deliberately) terrible upgrade.

Now, just to imagine it, what do you think could happen if Sightstone and Ruby Sightstone were simply removed from the game?

Yes, you'd lose access to that warding item, but you could also take that 800 gold and spend it on a Kindlegem, and get that Locket of the Iron Solari more quickly. Or you could save up and get a Catalyst for a Righteous Glory (if you were Leona or Braum). Or you could rush the finish on your gold-generating item to get better income more quickly. Meanwhile, you could either buy wards separately or just use a Warding Totem, and then upgrade to a Greater Stealth Totem later on (if you think you could eschew a Sweeper, or if your teammates cover you on that front).

Additionally, in that late-game, you'd have one more slot for a good item like a Rabadon, Warmog's, or something else that fits the situation, instead of a cruddy Ruby Sightstone that only gives 400 health and has bad combat applications.

Think about it for a moment. And don't just downvote it without reading it!

In the meantime, I'm going to be trying several support games and forbid myself from getting Sightstone, and see what happens.

50 Comments

TerffMay 28, 201517 votes

Well sightstone not only gives supports nice vision for your team it also opens up a trinket slot for sweeping lens allowing for vision denial.

PartholonianMay 29, 20151 votes

And this is why people do take it and win games with it. But if nobody could take it, the net result would be a benefit to supports.

Provided that ordinary buyable wards are also removed, because otherwise you'd just be forced to take those instead or reported if you don't. 4 out of 5 players will always agree that spending the support's gold on vision for them is better than spending it on stats for the support (even if those stats are things like mana and CDR to heal/shield/buff them more or CC more enemies). That's why taking the option away completely is the only way to keep supports from being coerced into it.

But that would require a massive expansion of non gold based vision that everyone could (and would have to) provide. In another thread I suggested two trinket slots (possibly one unlocking at a certain level) that can't both be the same trinket and adding 3+ more kinds of trinkets (including splitting pink off into its own trinket that is separate from level 1). That would give every team the choice of 10 trinkets total, which could be some mix of different kinds of vision and denial.

ErockandrollMay 28, 20157 votes

The supports would likely be tunneled into buying regular wards until the trinket ward option is available. They may still be tunneled into buying ward if the team forces him to take sweeping lens. (because someone needs vision denial)

If I was not tunneled into Sight stone first buy I would either get an Early Forbidden Idle or upgrade my spell thief into a frost fang for higher gold ramping. So this would likely give a bit more power to poke and harass supports. (I'd probably love it on my sona and Karma)

darkdillMay 28, 20154 votes

So it's basically no different than live: Supports are still tunneled into Sightstone/Sweeper. Deviating from that causes your teammates to report you. Kinda sad.

Maybe Riot could tie your Wards Placed into the new ranking system. Say, if you don't plant at least SOME wards, you can't get S rank, even if you get super fed as a marksman.

RISE Shlack123May 29, 20155 votes

The support role is widely accepted as the primary warder. I don't agree with getting reported, but vision is so important that assigning a role to do the majority of it makes sense.

I am a support main - I know the struggles. But I also know that if I don't ward, 95% of my games would have no wards at all.

PartholonianMay 29, 20151 votes

Having a primary warder might make sense (although I think we could do without it, some people would adjust and the others would get the elo they deserved), but having a primary non-gold-haver is just bad stuff. Supports should be free to build things like item 3504 -- those buffs are so tempting, and useful to your team too, but you just can't if you have to build item 2049 to have the wards, and item 3117 to go place them, and now it's midgame and you get two shotted without a real defensive item.

It's not the income that kills support itemization, it's the expenses. That's why I love this proposal, even though it would need a lot of other changes to make it really work. I hope Riot gives it serious consideration for Preseason 6. (As I posted above, consumable wards have to go too.)

4nth0l0gyMay 29, 20152 votes

This. where there is a game, there is a need to ward, and so long as it calls to support, they will always buy the most cost-efficient, most vision-granting item(s).

I do think some problems could be alleviated by creating an AP-granting version of sightstone and maybe a health/mana regen version as well.

RISE Shlack123May 29, 20154 votes

If this happened, then in most games in Gold and below, there would be a dramatic drop in wards, if anyone truly wards at all.

First, most people forget to upgrade their trinket. Second, you force the support to buy individual wards until level 9, which have no combat stats at all (at least the Sightstones give HP). Third, there are many other champions in other roles who do well with a Sightstone (Lee Sin being the biggest one here).

With the ward limits and the fact that the support is the primary warder, removing the Sightstone will be counter-productive to warding.

darkdillMay 29, 20154 votes

Then Sightstone needs an upgrade, or it's still a crap item because it can't recharge in the field.

RISE Shlack123May 29, 20152 votes

I'd definitely be on-board with upgrading the Sightstones. At the very least more HP, but maybe some mana, armor, magic resist, or variations that have some of those stats that build out of the Sightstone.

PartholonianMay 29, 20151 votes

They'd still have the problem of costing gold. Scrap them and build more on the trinket system instead. Vision and combat stats shouldn't be fungible or someone will always be forced into the position of trading their power for more vision that lets someone else make plays (because having sacrificed their own gold, they're too weak to make them themselves).

PartholonianMay 29, 20151 votes

Lee Sin can hop to a yellow trinket, as can Katarina.

But you are right that consumable wards would have to go too (or even first), and non-gold-sucking vision systems would have to be expanded and players would have to pay more attention to them. I think it would be overall beneficial, not just to supports, but to the health of the game as a whole. High elo and pro players already pay attention to vision regardless of their position. A change that prevents players from saying "let someone else deal with it" would challenge them to up their game.

BeatzBoyFTWMay 29, 20154 votes

As support, I still buy item 2049 cz I still need item 3364 . Nuff said.

Mandang0May 29, 20153 votes

(If you want people to take your post seriously, don't start it with a ridiculous statement about a trinket outclassing sightstone. Also, don't even mention ruby sightstone, because it's completely outclassed by regular sightstone too.)

Now, back to your post, I see 2 questions being asked: whether you can currently get away without building sightstone and whether the game would be healthier if it didn't have sightstone. The answer to the first is no. There's a reason you don't see pro players skipping sightstone, a reason why higher-tiered players in ranked don't skip it... you can't access greater stealth totem until level 9, and taking it denies your team a sweeper. IF you get to item capped on support, THEN you can consider whether it's worth not having a sightstone, but you shouldn't even think about it until that point.

The second question is more interesting. The reason (imo) why past seasons' support has felt so bad is because players had to dump all of their income into wards. Riot chose to address this by hard-capping the number of wards support can place, and sightstone was a very nice addition to support builds to provide them wards as a form of gp10. Removing sightstone would further reduce supports' expenditure on vision, so it might increase build diversity and 'support fantasy' or whatever Riot called it. I think it's running away from the central issue that wards are too good to pass up on, and removing a meaningful decision point (how much do I ward?) in the process, but I can't deny that it would get supports into other items more quickly.

PS: I know everyone wants to get stats, but the relevant question when comparing to a non-stat purchase (gp10/vision/etc) is how the game is affected. If your choice to build AP instead of wards on a support doesn't win you a fight you otherwise would've lost, then that purchase was unimpactful. If, instead, the lack of wards loses you a dragon or gets someone ganked, then you've lost that value of gold relative to the other team. As a role that gets less gold than the others, support usually isn't able to get the multiplicative scaling (%pen, CDR, DCap) needed to benefit from AP as well as other lanes. The beauty of support is that it's a role with high utility, a 'stat' that doesn't require gold to scale into lategame, unlike AP. This is why, even when you see damage-focused supports, it's not just any mage sent bottom, but only those with good CC and strong builds on 1 item (zhonya's for morg, liandry's for zyra, etc).

xu1D7eJdSiMay 29, 20152 votes

They should have a mastery decently high on utility that allows for the upgrade of the greater stealth totem to hold three wards instead of 2.

darkdillMay 29, 20152 votes

Not really needed. You get a free ward every minute.

RIP Tahm KenchMay 29, 20152 votes

A cool change would be at the second to last tier in the support masteries, have a mastery that lets you upgrade your trinket at 6.

BeddlamMay 29, 20152 votes

Isn't complaining about supports having to buy Sightstone a little like junglers complaining about having to take smite? Vision is central to the role and sightstone provides an efficient way to do that. Sightstone is better then upgraded ward trinket because it doesn't lock you out of sweeper, which is also very important for vision control. If you think not buying Sightstone makes you a better support, you don't have to buy it; but the overwhelming majority of players disagree.

PartholonianMay 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Isn't complaining about supports having to buy Sightstone a little like junglers complaining about having to take smite?

No, it's more like junglers complaining about having to gank all the time. Fighting monsters and leaving the minions for your teammates is central to the role. Ganking is actually not, but it is effective; so much more effective than hard farming that you have to do it, and can't play a champion that can't do it without pissing off your whole team.

Vision is central to the role

No, it isn't. Heals, shields, CC and things like thresh lantern/bard portal -- playmaking skills that don't depend on personally dealing tons of damage -- are central to the role. Vision is tacked on because sacrificing the support's gold hurts the team less than sacrificing someone else's gold -- whether the support likes it or not.

Even in a game where all vision comes from things like trinkets that aren't a substantial sacrifice of personal power just to have them, supports would probably still place slightly more vision because they can roam without sacrificing farm (because they don't have any anyway), or just because of tradition, or maybe there would be deep utility masteries that reduce trinket CD by 20% or whatever.

But it would be a less drastic difference, both in who provides the team's vision, and in who suffers reduced gold, item slots and personal power because of it. Everyone, and no one, respectively. And aren't those better answers than the status quo?

and sightstone provides an efficient way to do that. Sightstone is better then upgraded ward trinket because it doesn't lock you out of sweeper, which is also very important for vision control. If you think not buying Sightstone makes you a better support, you don't have to buy it; but the overwhelming majority of players disagree.

These things are true, but they're not good for supports, or ultimately for anyone else either (wait times in teambuilder and role arguments in every other mode, for example).

XinotineMay 29, 20152 votes

The best way to fix this would in my opinion be to give different Sightstones that give different stats, AP Sightstone, AD Sightstone (some junglers could use it)....

NyaboronMay 29, 20152 votes

You screw over your team's vision pre lvl 9, since you'd have to rely on yellow trinket or manually purchased wards which means that your kindlegem has to wait. You also don't have red trinket so you can't sweep shit, meaning everyone has to move pinks around which is hard if they're building literally anything. When you do get your upgraded yellow trinket, good luck gaining ward control over an area quickly since you have a cool down between each ward (twiddle your thumbs around dragon for a few minutes guys, my trinket is almost up again!). You're going to be hovering around the ward limit until someone sweeps your ward, then you have fuck all to put down since they're, again, timed. The yellow-green trinket wasn't invented as an alternative to the sightstone, it was invented as a SUPPLEMENT to the sightstone. It's a trinket your mid, top, and/or jungler is going to use to help your team maintain vision without taking up item slots on combat-stat based roles.

You say the sightstone is an inferior item, yet why do I see not only supports building it in the LCS, but junglers as well on occasion? Flat-out, supports don't need that extra rabadon or warmogs. If you want to be building those, play a class/champ that traditionally builds those. The workaround needed to replace sightstone puts your team at a massive disadvantage.

Sightstone gives you instant access to 4 ward charges per recall, you can throw them around as much as you want so if you're fighting around bushes it's super helpful to have up. It's good to build into for tank and defensive supports, whereas pokey ap supports have to make a decision between damage and early vision control, which is one reason we don't see nearly as much support zyra as we used to.

IcyPepperMay 29, 20151 votes

You screw over your team's vision pre lvl 9

This implies that supports can't just buy wards normally, or that anyone else who isn't the support doesn't have to buy wards.

Three wards bot lane isn't going to save your mid or top laner (usually). It isn't going to keep your jungler from being invaded from the other side of the map. If not getting sightstone is "screwing over a team's vision," then why doesn't everyone get it? Otherwise, there might be an issue with other players' warding, which is why a lot of support mains get pissy about the item. It's not that sightstone is the best thing since sliced bread (it really is!), it's that people use it and the support as a vision crutch and excuse to never buy wards pre-9 ever.

NyaboronMay 29, 20152 votes

and by buying wards normally, you're spending 75 each and can only carry 3 (sightstone carries 4). You'd be trading off your early vision control by telling everyone else building their first item to go fuck themselves because you don't want to waste the item slot. Sightstone offers superior vision to greenwards because they don't have a pricetag on them, you buy it once and they're available to you for the rest of the game.

I'm not saying that other lanes shouldn't be warding themselves, because they should. I'm saying that you can't tell the mid laner to buy 3 greens and place them around the river, dragon, and enemy jungle because I want to build AP too. You're removing the support role's identity as the primary warding position in exchange for yet another combat based position. You're also making tradeoffs: no sightstone = more yellow trinkets = less red trinkets = more enemy wards you can't clear = you're dead no sightstone = manual warding team-wide = late power spikes due to insufficient gold = team fight disadvantage and lost objectives

sightstone = less combat stats on support = weak support = who cares it's the support sightstone = more red trinket slots = less enemy vision = freedom to roam

People should be warding on their own so you dropping sightstone is just dropping vision for your team. You nerfing your own ability isn't going to force others to ward more, it's going to get your ass banned. What you get from an extra item slot on a support is a middle finger to the rest of your team, reduced role identity, and a shitty early game either gold-wise or vision-wise (one has to suffer).

EagleheartMay 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

who cares it's the support

People REALLY need to drop this mindset. If you don't like fighting 4v5's. Why are you telling a vital member of the team to go and be useless if they happen to play a mage support?

{quoted}

I understand why

but

but

I understand if you were making a point, but when people earnestly build ruby sightstone on Soraka...

I was making a point: Sightstone on all supports is an awful mindset, yet people like Nya continually reinforce it as the "Proper and only way to do things."

I don't care how much fancy psuedomath you put up. I just gave you a game where I completely proved the mindset of "Sightstone every support always" wrong in all fronts.

NyaboronMay 29, 20151 votes

People REALLY need to drop this mindset. If you don't like fighting 4v5's. Why are you telling a vital member of the team to go and be useless if they happen to play a mage support?

Don't be stupid. Lack of combat stats on a support doesn't mean you're useless in fights. Doing damage isn't your primary job. There's a reason all supports have utility. Thresh doesn't do a whole lot of damage and he doesn't tank a whole lot of damage, his job is ccing and disruption. I can hook their adc and my team blows them up, that's me being useful without having to build bloodthirster. I did 200 damage MAYBE, yet their adc did 0. Champions like soraka and janna aren't cc based, they have heals and shields that do indirect damage. Think of it this way: if your adc does 500dps, and they die after 2 seconds from being bursted, they did 1k damage and they're dead. If I shielded them from that damage, all the damage afterwards that they do is credited to me. Without me, any damage after when they would have died would never have happened. Low elo tends to build straight damage because that's the only way they think. Mage supports like annie can build straight AP and think they're being useful but in higher elo that sightstone you didn't buy is going to punish you. Annie is used as a support for her aoe stun initiate. If you stun 4 members of their team, all damage they would have done to you is negaged therefore indirectly shielding your team for all that theoretical damage. You don't want psuedomath, too bad welcome to competitive gaming.

EagleheartMay 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Don't be stupid. Lack of combat stats on a support doesn't mean you're useless in fights.

Except... Combat stats are ALL THAT MATTERS in a fight. Combat stats are EVERYTHING that applies to a fight. This includes things like shielding/healing/buffing/etc. If it affects a battle, it is a combat stat.

Doing damage isn't your primary job. There's a reason all supports have utility. Thresh doesn't do a whole lot of damage and he doesn't tank a whole lot of damage, his job is ccing and disruption.

Yes. This is true, thresh IS disruption. But he IS also tanking. His ult "The box" gives people a mortons fork situation: Fight him in the box and wait for it to drop, or go through the box and suck on a heavy debuff and some damage. That's tanking, pure and simple. But! Soraka isn't about tanking, Soraka is about HEALING. And she requires AP for her heals to be significant. Her W needs AP to heal for more than a pitiful amount of health, her Q needs AP to do damage and thus increase the healing it gives to Soraka so that she can actually keep healing. Her E doesn't need AP because it IS based around utility/CC. Not damage. But her Ult DOES need AP because it, like her Q and W, scaled from AP.

And, before you say that "Riot doesn't want you to build AP on them" like someone else in my thread did, Why do these skills scale from anything then? They could scale from level alone and it would allow supports to build utility items en masse. However, they DO scale from AP. So obviously the notion that riot wants you to build no AP on them is false.

I can hook their adc and my team blows them up, that's me being useful without having to build bloodthirster. I did 200 damage MAYBE, yet their adc did 0. Champions like soraka and janna aren't cc based, they have heals and shields that do indirect damage.

See above.

Think of it this way: if your adc does 500dps, and they die after 2 seconds from being bursted, they did 1k damage and they're dead. If I shielded them from that damage, all the damage afterwards that they do is credited to me.

Except that's not how it works at all. If your not doing that damage, your not getting credited with damage. That's the exact opposite of how it happens. Unless you do it, it isn't yours to take credit for. If I shielded/healed our teams ADC to save him from dying and he picks up a double kill, then I saved him. The double kill is his, not mine.

Without me, any damage after when they would have died would never have happened. Low elo tends to build straight damage because that's the only way they think.

Throwing around Elo comments isn't going to earn you any points. And if by "Building straight damage" you mean "Building what their kit supports" then yes, everyone builds this way because it's how the GAME SUPPORTS THEM BUILDING. You wouldn't tell an AP mage like Karthus to build AD, because that's simply not how hit kit flows.

Mage supports like annie can build straight AP and think they're being useful but in higher elo that sightstone you didn't buy is going to punish you.

I really don't see how knowing that the jungle is coming for a gank is going to be helpful when you can do nothing to help fight off the gank and both of you die anyway.

Annie is used as a support for her aoe stun initiate. If you stun 4 members of their team, all damage they would have done to you is negaged therefore indirectly shielding your team for all that theoretical damage.

Theoritical damage always comes second to actual damage. If it doesn't happen, you don't need to worry about it.

You don't want psuedomath, too bad welcome to competitive gaming.

Sigh

Slinging around comments about rank and elo as you wave you E-peen about makes you look like an ass and undermines everything you're saying.

NyaboronMay 29, 20151 votes

By combat stats, I'm talking about items that give you straight damage vs the utility. Example being why would morgana rush hourglass over deathcap? You get more damage from deathcap! Well, Morgana needs the utility from the hourglass so that she has a much higher chance of getting the 2nd proc off of her ult. If you're going to ditch the sightstone for warmogs because it gives much more hp, you're also ditching the wards and therefore not doing the original job you signed up for in champ select. Combat stats are not "ALL THAT MATTERS in a fight" as you so fervently put it. Crowd control from your abilities isn't typically effected by anything you can buy. Building bloodthirster over sightstone has no effect on my hook. AP may increase the damage on my hook (barely, the ratios suck which is why ap thresh is for retards), but the duration is the same.

Thresh CAN tank. He doesn't HAVE to tank, that's not his primary job. He can peel without tanking. If you have an assassin going after your carry, stacking warmogs does fuck all to stop someone from hitting anyone but me. Warding around the point of combat (do that with a warmogs, it has no pockets) gives you a heads-up on which direction they may come from. If they aren't going for you, you aren't tanking shit. Thresh's box isn't a taunt. It doesn't force you to fight him, it forces you to go around or to take the slow. Again, if you aren't being hit, you aren't tanking shit. As for Soraka, saying that because something scales from AP means that you should build AP on them is retarded. I'd like to see you play AP cait in ranked and try to justify it with "W-well why else would rito give her W and E ap scaling?" That's a piss-poor argument. Yes, Soraka does require AP to be effective, however the AP is not for damage and you are in-essence tanking. You aren't directly tanking, but by healing champions you ARE soaking up damage. Normal tanks negate damage through resistances and sheer amount of health. Soraka gives sustained heal which borrows an ally's resistances by giving them that effective hp in exchange for you yourself being useless by direct application. Soraka isn't going to be doing direct damage or direct tanking, everything she does is indirect and you have to suck it up. No amount of deathcap is going to make her a viable dps mage because her dps is shit no matter what you do.

Except that's not how it works at all. If your not doing that damage, your not getting credited with damage. That's the exact opposite of how it happens. Unless you do it, it isn't yours to take credit for. If I shielded/healed our teams ADC to save him from dying and he picks up a double kill, then I saved him. The double kill is his, not mine.

I'm not talking about post-game stats, you dolt. Do you care about winning or jerking yourself off in the end-game screen pointing out your superior numbers (hint: if it's the latter, support is not for you!)? I'm talking about that damage never would have happened without you. You are taking your ally's AD and making it your own by healing/shielding/supporting them. I couldn't give 2 fucks whether or not the AD knows I was even there. The fact is, I got his ass fed early game, I saved his ass mid game, and saved everyone's asses late game by not being a stat-selfish prick.

Throwing around Elo comments isn't going to earn you any points.

If I were here for points I would have sheepishly agreed with your initial comments without arguing truth. You should know by now I'm not here to earn hypothetical "points". I'm here to argue my point because I'm correct, I like teaching (I'm a coach in my spare time), and I love arguing on forums. Don't shrug off the low elo comment as me being condescending, take the condescending parts as condescending. The low elo comment was an OBSERVATION because I'VE BEEN THERE BEFORE. You obviously didn't know how to handle a full damage sona. There's a solution to the sona, that's why you NEVER see full AP sona in the LCS despite your argument for that's how its supposed to be played. In fact, you keep arguing that your way is correct, yet at my elo I never see that anymore. Saying that me pointing out elo is a cheap shot is ignoring the fact that at different elos, different ways to play exist. Until you figure out how to deal with glass cannon supports, you're going to continue to get dominated by them.

You wouldn't tell an AP mage like Karthus to build AD, because that's simply not how hit kit flows.

No shit, sherlock. I'm not telling an AP mage like Karthus to build AD. I'm telling a support Soraka to build support! Glad to see we're on the same page again, buddy.

I really don't see how knowing that the jungle is coming for a gank is going to be helpful when you can do nothing to help fight off the gank.

"I really don't see" is the main part here. This is where I come in. You don't need to fight off the gank, you just need to avoid it. If he gets the kill, he's successful. If your ward spots him and you don't die because of it, that ward just saved you 300 gold you would have shelled out to the jungler (plus assist gold). It's insurance. 9 times out of 10, when he comes to gank and you back off, he's going to assume it's warded and be more hesitant to come back. If he does, waste MORE of his time and he's going to get underleveled/underfed. Now if you argue that you're missing out on creeps and xp getting zoned by the 3v2, let me point out that your jungler is farming and hopefully ganking somewhere else. He's a free man whereas you've chained their jungler down to your lane without risking anything. You can let them push to tower and farm under tower or try to bait them into a failed dive. You have options.

Theoritical damage always comes second to actual damage. If it doesn't happen, you don't need to worry about it.

The theoretical damage is damage that WOULD have happened had you not cc'd, that you WOULD have had to worry about. Support annie's value is in her early game base stats (before you have the opportunity to build ap), and her mid-late game initiating utility. Whether or not you do damage as her mid-late game is irrelevant. By getting a good initiation off (which is her role), you aren't giving the enemy team a chance to respond, almost singlehandedly winning the teamfight. If they're locked down let your damage dealers have the glory of the stats page. You just racked up a win. You held them down while your team beat them up, someone has to do it.

Sigh

Don't be a child.

Slinging around comments about rank and elo as you wave you E-peen about makes you look like an ass and undermines everything you're saying.

that's why I put the preamble to my rank comment; the foreplay to my E-peen. If I really have to repeat myself... I'm saying that you're arguing with me on how to play the role that I climbed to plat with. I'm not an adc main telling you how to do your job, I've been maining support since season 2 and I've gotten pretty damn good at it. That's irrefutable because I have the rank evidence to back what I'm saying up. If you can't see the correlation between rank (rough indicator of how good you are at the game) and game knowledge (which effects how good you are at the game), then you're beyond saving. If you're too ignorant to see that, you're beyond saving.... Sigh

edit: It's 5:30 am and I'm helping my family move cities in a few hours which is an ass-ton of work. I'll respond to whatever novel you write in response to the one I just wrote, but at a later date. If you took anything I said offensively, I'm sorry you took it that way, the competition of the argument gets me fired up so I sneak insults and tone in for comedic effect for myself. If you aren't too personally offended and have at least somewhat of an open mind, I can show you exactly what I mean in-game. Find me on lol-coaching and send me a coach chat and/or add me on league. If you wish to ignore everything I've argued, best of luck to you with your concocted strategies.

BestTristMyHausMay 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Except that's not how it works at all. If your not doing that damage, your not getting credited with damage. That's the exact opposite of how it happens. Unless you do it, it isn't yours to take credit for. If I shielded/healed our teams ADC to save him from dying and he picks up a double kill, then I saved him. The double kill is his, not mine.

As and adc main (who ALWAYS thanks the support for assists and doesn't bitch about "accidental" KS), I agree with Nyaboron and if this is your view then please, Please, PLEASE never support... like EVER. If you get on a team with me and you're last pick remind me of this conversation and I'll take support just so you don't need to. The LAST thing bot needs is a "support" chasing kills. If you're building utility and you just happen to last hit the enemy champ (especially if while SAVING me) then awesome, good job. But if you're Sora or Sona and you're pounding the enemy champ racing me to the kill, the F' you dude. It's bad enough when junglers (or even Mids) come down and watch us die and then sweep up the kills (I'm explicitly referring to ganks that sit and don't come in until I'm either at or near zero health at which point I die to the pounding but the ganker gets 1 or 2 kills from all the damage I did, I don't "need" the kill, but I HATE the death) If my support is getting in on THAT action then our team is screwed.

I'm not currently a great player, and I know that a BIG part of that is I don't fully use vision yet. I don't mean I don't place wards, I mean I "tunnel vision" on what I'm doing and don't fully make use of vision that we have. I'm working on this and getting better, but I'm AWARE of its importance. If you don't see the value/importance of knowing what's going on at various places on the map (benefit provided by sightstone) then you have a lot to learn. My biggest issue right now with sightstone is (again) I get tunnel visioned (to protect my adc, as an adc main I know what I want the support doing) so I'm not as effective helping the full TEAM. (of note, this is why I absolutely SUCK right now as a jungler)

EagleheartMay 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mahou Girl Mami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s2kanO04,comment-id=0008000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-05-29T16:11:31.083+0000)

As and adc main (who ALWAYS thanks the support for assists and doesn't bitch about "accidental" KS), I agree with Nyaboron and if this is your view then please, Please, PLEASE never support... like EVER. If you get on a team with me and you're last pick remind me of this conversation and I'll take support just so you don't need to. The LAST thing bot needs is a "support" chasing kills. If you're building utility and you just happen to last hit the enemy champ (especially if while SAVING me) then awesome, good job. But if you're Sora or Sona and you're pounding the enemy champ racing me to the kill, the F' you dude. It's bad enough when junglers (or even Mids) come down and watch us die and then sweep up the kills (I'm explicitly referring to ganks that sit and don't come in until I'm either at or near zero health at which point I die to the pounding but the ganker gets 1 or 2 kills from all the damage I did, I don't "need" the kill, but I HATE the death) If my support is getting in on THAT action then our team is screwed.

I'm not currently a great player, and I know that a BIG part of that is I don't fully use vision yet. I don't mean I don't place wards, I mean I "tunnel vision" on what I'm doing and don't fully make use of vision that we have. I'm working on this and getting better, but I'm AWARE of its importance. If you don't see the value/importance of knowing what's going on at various places on the map (benefit provided by sightstone) then you have a lot to learn. My biggest issue right now with sightstone is (again) I get tunnel visioned (to protect my adc, as an adc main I know what I want the support doing) so I'm not as effective helping the full TEAM. (of note, this is why I absolutely SUCK right now as a jungler)

Except I don't chase kills. When I'm playing a support that requires AP, I usually spend my mana on poking and harassing the enemy laners in order to deny them farm when possible.

I'm pretty sure you're misinterpreting what I said. I didn't mean that I sat there and tried to take kills from the ADC. But I want my skills to actually do something. Would you rather heal someone (As soraka) For 1/4'th of their health, or 1/2 of their health? That's what I'm getting at.

BestTristMyHausMay 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Except I don't chase kills. When I'm playing a support that requires AP, I usually spend my mana on poking and harassing the enemy laners in order to deny them farm when possible.

I'm pretty sure you're misinterpreting what I said. I didn't mean that I sat there and tried to take kills from the ADC. But I want my skills to actually do something. Would you rather heal someone (As soraka) For 1/4'th of their health, or 1/2 of their health? That's what I'm getting at.

You said: "Except that's not how it works at all. If your not doing that damage, your not getting credited with damage. That's the exact opposite of how it happens. Unless you do it, it isn't yours to take credit for. If I shielded/healed our teams ADC to save him from dying and he picks up a double kill, then I saved him. The double kill is his, not mine." and: "I couldn't heal - No AP.

I couldn't do any damage - No AP.

I was entirely useless - No AP."

Again, using ONLY myself as reference. I buy Pots until I have at least 3 items (unless I have a REALLY good heal support). Pot heals for 150 HP over 15 secs. BY DEFAULT, (zero AP) Soraka's spell heals for 120 INSTANTLY with only 1 rank in it. Do you know how annoying it is (as an adc) to go trade with another adc, have both of you drop to half and then see your opponent back up to full with pot still in inventory and you're at maybe 75% with nothing? 100 HP can mean the difference between an execute working or not. Or the difference between narrowly losing vs. winning a trade. Or the difference between a tower dive (from either team) being suicidal or successful. Tristana's rocket jump resets on kill. Time it right, jump in, get the kill jump back out. Oh wait, Soraka just gave the ADC 120 more HPs. Now the tower just pummeled my face and I'm dead. (I take summoner 7 as an ADC for EXACTLY this reason)

Sure, MORE healing is even better, but if you're saying that "no AP" Soraka is useless, then you're frankly doing it wrong.

GinoSoldierMay 30, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mahou Girl Mami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s2kanO04,comment-id=0008000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-05-29T16:11:31.083+0000)

The LAST thing bot needs is a "support" chasing kills. If you're building utility and you just happen to last hit the enemy champ (especially if while SAVING me) then awesome, good job. But if you're Sora or Sona and you're pounding the enemy champ racing me to the kill, the F' you dude.

I play the AP, very aggressive Sona all the time, but here's the thing. I don't chase kills until (maybe) mid/late game where everyone is more fed than the enemy team, or until i decide that everyone else is so hopelessly out of the game it won't even matter anymore (and once in a while i carry the team out of the dregs). If i happen to get a kill in lane, it's either because my ADC is dead or too far back to have a chance at it, and my first priority is always to leave kills to others when i can. I don't let enemy laners escape when i can safely remove them from lane and grab some free gold. But my heightened poke damage can allow me to force the enemy ADC to farm under turret for the entire laning phase, and that's also incalculable in terms of gold, denying the enemy ADC his farm. I can save my ADC better at every point of the game, and especially mid/late game i can help my team nail a magnificent amount of kills (or deny the enemy kills) by granting a speed buff or heals to everyone far superior to what it 'normally' is.

I want to point out, some games i have the most gold earned due to a healthy mix of assists, a couple of kills and the GP5 item. I also have the highest damage to champions dealt and healed for half as much as the team's tank soaked up all game long. And it's still usually my ADC or the team's APC or assassin who go 18-10, not me. I just go 8-8-26 instead of 1-14-26.

Also, what's the price on being able to lockdown and survive (as a full-tank supp) or downright kill (as a mage supp) an enemy ADC or assassin during a teamfight again? Sure those support CCs are still there, but supports can also have a good amount of power backing them, and therefore their entire team as well.

Think about everything you said though, at the moment no-sightstone players can do all the warding/safekeeping/bad-fight-avoiding you mentioned earlier thanks to yellow trinket (and early game ward buys up to lvl 9), and still be far more impacting in the fights than they would be otherwise. The drawback is that they have to accept that the enemy team also potentially has vision everywhere. I agree that not having the sweeper is a rather big setback to this current mode of play though, and that's why i'm arguing for a change. And let's be honest here, at our low elo anyway, finding someone besides support who actually wards is pretty uncommon, so vision denial isn't nearly as important to us as it is to you high elo peeps.

But the original point to this thread was a discussion about Sightstone and whether it can be replaced by trinkets or upgraded to a better state. The answer is yes.

I think allowing everyone the use of a warding and one other trinket (including maybe new ones, such as a TwinShadows (without slow) active or jungle Wolf 'ward') would solve everything quite neatly, by removing gold from the vision equation and setting all players on the same bases. Yes, there would probably need to be some re-balancing of supports to make them less oppressive, more than likely, but that's what the beta server is for, isn't it?

PartholonianMay 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's a trinket your mid, top, and/or jungler is going to use to help your team maintain vision without taking up item slots on combat-stat based roles.

This right here is the problem. 4 out of 5 players can build items that help their champion do the things their champion is supposed to be good at. The fifth player can build items that... help other people see things. And them too, but who cares what they see when they're too weak to do anything about it because they spent all their (already scarce, remember we're talking about the almost 0 farm or kills player here) gold on vision.

Everyone should be able to contribute their share of vision without taking up their gold or item slots. Not 80%. 100%.

Playmaking, teammate saving, support champions are awesome and fun. Ward bots are not. Don't force them together.

FastAsHeckMay 29, 20152 votes

sightstone is actually highly efficient, and pays off after the 4 initial wards are used + refilled.

GinoSoldierMay 28, 20151 votes

My Idea was to just ship everyone the Yellow trinket as a freebie (possibly a weaker or upgradeable-twice version to limit vision ease early), and enable a second-choice trinket to all. It could allow for new trinket development, allow Sightstone to be removed from the game (good damn riddance), and liberate support role from automatically wasting an item slot. It would finally push warding on the entire team equally (though support would still be the one to usually ward dragon, which is farther from lane.) Solo wards could still be bought by supports early but it'd never cost more than that 800 until you hit 9.

PartholonianMay 29, 20151 votes

That's actually pretty similar to my idea, except I would make it any two different trinkets you want, one of them doesn't have to be yellow if you don't want it to, and consumable wards must die too (removing SS and keeping consumables would actually be a step backward).

New trinket development would be great; I'd look at every ability and item that grants vision and think "could there be a trinket version of this?" just for starters. item 3023 trinket? Why the hell not (well, without the CC anyway, CC on a trinket would be pretty nuts). Trinket based on the wolf buff / Kalista sentinel? Sounds cool.

There could be so many different vision options people would have their own favorites, or ones that were better suited to different champions. Lee and Kat would want something that placed a thing they could jump to, for example.

But whatever expansion they might make to the vision system, it needs to be separated -- hard -- from the regular item system. No one can be allowed to spend gold or item slots for more vision, because "allowed" will immediately become "forced"; I also suggested making all trinket upgrades automatic based on level for the same reason, and splitting off pink into a completely separate trinket (partly because branching upgrades wouldn't work with automatic upgrades, and partly to make pinks available early even though consumable vision doesn't exist).

Vision can't trade off fairly against other things you get from gold. The "right" answer is always going to be to have 4 whole champions and one crippled one. Players can't resist the tyranny of effectiveness without, well, being less effective; only the devs can change the rules and set us free from compulsory sacrifice.

DirkTarTarMay 29, 20151 votes

ime, hardly anyone uses their trinkets in the first place, few people actually upgrade their trinkets, and fewer yet switch over to a sweeping lens for vision denial.

The more reasonable argument would be to buff sighstone and remove trinkets :3 but that argument sucks too

EagleheartMay 29, 20151 votes

There's one game I had recently that actually sums up my thoughts about building sightstone on mage champions perfectly. I was playing soraka, built sightstone, and was spending all my time warding, as I'm apparently supposed to do. The enemy Sona built AP, and spent all her time in lane helping her ADC push, healing them, buffing them, poking, etc. Overall, actually using her kit and not just being a placeholder for a featureless 100x100 pixel box that does nothing but ward.

Oh. And this game was a result of me "Playing the right way" according to a thread I put up recently.

Have a look at how THAT turned out...

IcyPepperMay 29, 20152 votes

Why did you upgrade sightstone on Soraka.

Why did you continue to build health on Soraka.

Why. item 3070 Soraka

EagleheartMay 29, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Why did you upgrade sightstone on Soraka.

Why did you continue to build health on Soraka.

Why.

Due to how Soraka heals now (Which was an awful idea) having really fast HP regen is almost mandatory. Thus: item 3065

IcyPepperMay 29, 20151 votes

I understand why item 3083 item 3065

but

I understand if you were making a point, but when people earnestly build ruby sightstone on Soraka...

NyaboronMay 29, 20153 votes

That's not the right way though. You can't just leave your adc to 1v2 because you're off warding. You have to weigh the benefits of warding that spot and helping your adc. What I typically do when I'm playing janna (the most similar champ I play since i fucking hate soraka), is (assuming blue side) I'll ward our tri-bush, come back to lane and help the adc. If we can win a skirmish we'll skirmish if not I'll wait for them to make a mistake. I'm not going to run around warding everything for everyone because that's not my job. I'm not a jungler, I have a lane to be in. If we are in a lane where I can push up and be aggressive, I'm going to help push until we're just past river. At that point, I'm going to wait for a moment where I can leave lane without my adc dying. I'll v ping, walk down and ward just in front of the dragon pit before returning to lane. The only time you're going to go deep warding or warding for mid lane is if you meet all this criteria:

you have sighstone, i aint manually warding shit for other people, that's expensive
their support and/or adc recently died and my adc can win or disengage from a 1v1 with the remaining member
we've recently seen their jungler top-side
their mid is not mia or if you're going to buddy system up with you're jungler, 3 and 4 are more of judgement calls, dont get your ass caught. Boots of mobility are usually a good idea.

EagleheartMay 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That's not the right way though. You can't just leave your adc to 1v2 because you're off warding. You have to weigh the benefits of warding that spot and helping your adc. What I typically do when I'm playing janna (the most similar champ I play since i fucking hate soraka), is (assuming blue side) I'll ward our tri-bush, come back to lane and help the adc. If we can win a skirmish we'll skirmish if not I'll wait for them to make a mistake. I'm not going to run around warding everything for everyone because that's not my job. I'm not a jungler, I have a lane to be in. If we are in a lane where I can push up and be aggressive, I'm going to help push until we're just past river. At that point, I'm going to wait for a moment where I can leave lane without my adc dying. I'll v ping, walk down and ward just in front of the dragon pit before returning to lane. The only time you're going to go deep warding or warding for mid lane is if you meet all this criteria:

you have sighstone, i aint manually warding shit for other people, that's expensive

their support and/or adc recently died and my adc can win or disengage from a 1v1 with the remaining member

we've recently seen their jungler top-side

their mid is not mia or if you're going to buddy system up with you're jungler, 3 and 4 are more of judgement calls, dont get your ass caught. Boots of mobility are usually a good idea.

Actually. On the warding front, I was doing great! I had wards on dragon and baron almost constantly, and I had botlane's most common gank path warded too! It was great!

Everything else? Take a guess.

I couldn't heal - No AP.

I couldn't do any damage - No AP.

I was entirely useless - No AP.

Literally the only thing I was good for was wards, Every other thing that I could have contributed was the worst.

NyaboronMay 29, 20153 votes

I couldn't heal

AP isn't the reason why you couldn't heal if you aren't even in lane half the time

I couldn't do any damage

Welcome to soraka. Why did you pick her up if this was your goal? AP or not, you aren't going to do any significant amount of direct damage.

I was entirely useless

Yeah, it looks like you were useless but it wasn't sightstone's fault. That 800 gold and 0 wards wouldn't have won you the game. The benefits from vision are much harder to see than benefits of combat stats. Combat stats you can see the damage you deal and your HP bar get more black lines. If you want that, don't play support. When you stop a gank, that was your sightstone. When your top laner invades their red because your ward on their blue sees them, that was your sightstone. When you see the river and jungle are clear, and you engage and win a fight bot without being ganked, that was your sightstone. You could play aggressive BECAUSE you knew it wouldn't backfire.

Hint: I'm not going to pull rank on you because it's a free win to the argument. I'm merely suggesting that you should learn how and why the system works before simply saying that it's broken. You're bronze 5 but that doesn't mean nothing you say is true. I'm plat 2 but that doesn't mean I'm right about everything. However, because of the difference of our rank and our understanding of the game, before staunchly disagreeing with me, you should concede that there may be something I know that you don't. If there was no truth to what I am saying, why would there be such a discrepancy?

Mandang0May 29, 20152 votes

{quoted} There's one game I had recently that actually sums up my thoughts about building sightstone on mage champions perfectly

{quoted} mage champions

{quoted} I was playing soraka

...

Also, you were pretty childish in that other thread upon receiving feedback, and it seems you followed up on it accordingly. Getting sightstone and warding with it is a common choice, regardless of whether you think it's optimal. When you see other supports get sightstone, are they always out of lane unable to help their ADC as you claimed you were? It should only take a few seconds to ward drag, ward tribush (if safe to do so), and ward one of the bushes in lane, and you don't have to do them all at the same time.

Also, just as we advised in the other thread, don't build ruby sightstone - it's not worth the upgrade over sightstone.

EagleheartMay 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

...

Yet people always whine at me when I'm playing a mage like Sona, Soraka, Nidalee, Lux, etc. To buy a sightstone.

I just had a game as Sejuani where I bought it and did really well (I sold it in the end when there wasn't much warding to be done with all the roaming). But here's the kicker: Sejuani is a tank, and benefits from the tanky nature of Sightstone.

Soraka? Nidalee? Lux? They don't.

I'm perfectly fine with buying a sightstone when I'm playing a tank, or someone who benefits from health. But if I'm playing someone that doesn't benefit at all from sightstone, I'd rather use a yellow trinket. Or just stand in the brush and be a ward myself!

Mandang0May 29, 20152 votes

I wouldn't consider Soraka a mage, that's why I said what you quoted. A large part of why Soraka sees play at support and not in a solo lane is because she scales into lategame without having to build AP, because the people she heals scale. This is why you don't see every AP champion played as support, only the ones with good utility (heals/shields/buffs/CC). Sometimes you trade the heals/shields for more damage, and this is what people usually refer to as mage support: Annie Morgana Zyra have been the most common.

People want you to build sightstone because it helps the team a very large amount. Health is the single best survivability stat in the game - it's best early when you have a low HP, and it's best late when enemies have %pen. I'll address your claim that this is not useful on your supports later, when I compare it to how useful other options are. The problem with standing in the brush to ward (assuming you're being serious about this suggestion) is that you'll get blown up the instant anyone comes in if you shun health purchases. The problem with relying on yellow trinket is that you can't upgrade it until level 9 and you give up sweeper for it.

When asking how useful a stat is, you need to consider both the case in which you have the stat and the case in which you don't, then ask how the game changes between those cases. If spending 800 gold on AP means you deal 15 extra damage in a skirmish (40 AP on blasting wand, 0.35 ratio on Soraka Q), then that purchase only changed the outcome if the enemy would've survived with <15 health. Of course, this is only considering Soraka's Q (for simplicity), but the same holds true in general. While you might think health is undesirable, anytime that you would've survived (or been able to cast an extra spell before running) if you had an extra 150 health, sightstone would've made a difference.

Now, the health isn't even the main reason to build sightstone, and you can use the same argument to examine the impact of wards. This is a bit more subtle than stats, so I'd encourage you to go watch a replay of yours or maybe a stream of higher level play and look for times when wards allow a team to make a play they wouldn't otherwise make. Maybe someone gets spotted coming in for a gank, and the laner backs off and avoids dying. Maybe their survival means the other team wasn't able to take the tower. If it's bottom, maybe the jungler can't dragon now. Maybe a ward spots the other team trying to take dragon, and you can interrupt it or even steal it because you had vision. (As another exercise, ask what impact sweeping that ward out would have had - this helps to see the value of sweeper).

AMYS GRAVEMay 29, 20151 votes

you need the wards sooner, and a sweeper is extremely important. It would be nice if you could rely on your team to ward but i find that if i don't no one does regardless of the role that i play.

AkaterinaMay 29, 20151 votes

I don't see what the problem with it is.... Just get a sightstone and upgrade your trink to place pink wards.

CelosarMay 29, 20151 votes

Imagine if you didn't have a support running around clearing enemy wards with an upgraded sweeper and pinks. No one would ever die because the map would be covered in wards by both teams.

Also the ability to completely ward cover an objective without waiting on the CD of the trinket is kind of a big deal.

GinoSoldierMay 30, 20151 votes

I agree with pretty much everything Partholonian said, and had a thought about a Twin Shadows trinket myself, it just seems like the obvious one to put in the game. Only things i have an 'issue' with is 1; the fine-tuning of early supports dominating the lanes they're in because their power isn't being gated by the Sightstone, and the potential OP-ness of early warding if not properly gated (such as making a lane completely un-gankable, or ruining jungle players by having the whole jungles lit up.) But then those are why testing and beta-servers exist right?

One thing that i could see happen, is for masteries to affect these wards/vision actives in the support tree which would be pretty darn nifty. (CDR, sight range, etc.)