Does anybody else think that Titanic Hydra...

Count Zubat··54 votes·34,711 views

... is Riot's another attempt at making Atma's Impaler? Atma's Impaler was item that was giving bonus AD for how much health you had, it was removed in patch 4.21, if I recall it right. When you think about it, Titanic Hydra will serve the same role: it is going to reward you with extra damage for building HP, just instead of giving extra AD, it is giving increasing on-hit damage.

I think it's cool that Riot is trying to implement similar mechanics of removed items into new items. Who knows, maybe we will see other removed niche items return in such maner, maybe Executioner's Calling, or Sword of the Divine? Well, time will show, but now we can officially announce: Atma's Impaler is reincarnated.

71 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoir26 votes

Atma's Implaler definitely came up in conversation when thinking about offensive items for tanky guys. We never tried any tests where we just strictly put it back in the game, but it was somewhat of a starting point conceptually at least.

Calibretto91 votes

I unfortunately think Riot sometimes underestimates the allure of old/classic items like Atma's and introduces new items with strange names. "Sterak's Gage!"... Who the eff is Sterak? And what's a gage? (Yes, I can Google definitions, thanks.) I do like the new items though. Wish the CD on new Hydra wasn't so long but other than that I'm a fan.

chipi991 votes

Who is Atama?

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

question : why not stick with old passive then ?

the only problem that atma ever had was that the stats it provided were suboptimal ... mainly due to crit chance people dont want to spend gold on stats they dont use as it is usually counterproductive

thats why they steered clear off atmas ... while if we were to give it the same stats as the tytanic hydra has and just kept the passive ... we could get an item that feels better to use (skills and scaling)

RiotRiot Axes10 votes

The bigger problem is that Atma's rewards you with raw AD for health, which half the roster uses well. That means that when Atma's is efficient, it's efficient on everyone and you tend to see it crowd out everything else, and when it's not efficient, nobody uses it well. Titanic Hydra requires you to use on-hit effects fairly well to be fully efficient, so it shouldn't crowd everything else out when strong and it should still be useful to some champions when relatively weaker (as long as the numbers aren't too far off from balanced, of course).

NullDragon2 votes

Rewording to see if I understand it: Atma's Impaler wasn't OP, but was just a boring stat stick that everyone with AD wanted to buy?

So wasn't broken(persay), just shut down item diversity among champions? And the new titanic hydra is healthier because while a subset of champions still always want the item, it's not a 'must have' for all tanky AD champs?

Neonocyte5 votes

Mostly correct. Atma's passive gave stats, so it was mostly about whether or not the item was efficient for Tanky DPS builds (other AD characters couldn't use it efficiently). When it was efficient, it was built on every Tanky DPS character (usually in conjunction with Warmog's), and when it wasn't, no one really built the item. It never had a "situational" status, and picking it up wasn't a strategic decision. I'm not sure how effective this new item will be, since it sounds like the same thing but for strictly On-Hit champions instead.

Anidan1 votes

Oh the joy of the Meta-Golem Wukong, Lee Sin, Renekton and Jarvan giving your team a second superfluous anus...

Those were... well, that happened, anyway. I don't know how much I really miss that aspect of the past.

RiotRiot Axes6 votes

It's less that it's boring, more that it shut down item diversity and champion diversity. At the height of the Atmogs meta you'd see 3 Atma's Impaler + Warmog's Armor champions per team in each game. Slightly nerfing its efficiency made it so nobody ever built it.

TerraRising5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s2cW5jF0,comment-id=00070001000100000001,timestamp=2015-08-14T20:55:44.669+0000)

It's less that it's boring, more that it shut down item diversity and champion diversity. At the height of the Atmogs meta you'd see 3 Atma's Impaler + Warmog's Armor champions per team in each game. Completely gutting its efficiency made it so nobody ever built it.

FTFY ;)

ProfDrDeath3 votes

Three per team? My memory might betray me, but wasn't that at a time when supports were ward bots with superlow income?

If memory serves, it was build most commonly on top lane and jungle. Mid back then was dominated by the big AoE waveclear mages (Anivia Karthus Orianna TwistedFate ), and ADCs were, well, ADCs. And supports, as mentioned above, did not have money for anything but wards (slightly exaggerated, but somewhat true. Especially since Warmog's back then had the stacking mechanic).

hashinshin2 votes

Yeah, the item went from being 60% of all champions (that means the only people not building it were the AD and bruiser, somehow) to being on 0% of all champions by slightly nerfing it's efficiency.

You ever stop to read what you've said before posting it? I sometimes do.

At the height of the Atma's meta you saw top lane (sometimes) build it, and jungle (sometimes) build it. Games would often be something like Renekton with Atma's against Irelia with Trinity. Maybe later in the game Irelia would go Frozen Mallet/Atma's, much like every AD builds LW, and every AP builds VS. Never really understood that. ADs have the worst diversity in the game, and yet bruisers constantly get the brunt end of a kick in the nuts for "low diversity" while having the most diversity of any class, literally forever.

Have you guys ever thought about hiring a high ELO player just to tell you stuff? That seems to often be the disconnect. You guys often watch tournaments but I feel you never really understand what's going on. You need someone on pay who will tell you stuff. And not pro players, since they literally make money off not telling you stuff.

JustBoneBrook1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s2cW5jF0,comment-id=00070001000100000001,timestamp=2015-08-14T20:55:44.669+0000)

It's less that it's boring, more that it shut down item diversity and champion diversity. At the height of the Atmogs meta you'd see 3 Atma's Impaler + Warmog's Armor champions per team in each game. Slightly nerfing its efficiency made it so nobody ever built it.

I guess it was a nice time to bring a Vayne whit her old item that work like item 3153 right

Anidan1 votes

Madred's Bloodrazor was terribly inefficent, even on Vayne.

JustBoneBrook1 votes

{quoted}

Madred's Bloodrazor was terribly inefficent, even on Vayne.

You sure the stats look almost the same (armor/more AD) vs (life steal / 500G) It was probably just not meta yet

Anidan1 votes

It was also stat inefficient for its cost, and cost the most of any item in the game.

It was never going to be meta. That was the meta it had the highest chance of shining in and it still didn't hold up.

JustBoneBrook1 votes

{quoted}

It was also stat inefficient for its cost, and cost the most of any item in the game.

It was never going to be meta. That was the meta it had the highest chance of shining in and it still didn't hold up.

Oh well any way i am sure vayne would melt them right now.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

So the way i understand it

you want it as a niche item to make sure that this item wont kill other options of a very broad poll of champions

rite ?

the only thing that i dont like is the downside of this idea ... since items target specific champions ... it kinda works against build diversity ... since some items just work with your kit ... and some no ... champions who work with the item have no better option than to take it and in a group of champions ... there will always be someone who will need to be nerfed due to scaling with said item ... which enforces said item as a core of his power

hashinshin2 votes

So I'm going to give you the only real response and I hope you actually get to read it:

You want an item that doesn't just reward AD for health, but you want an item that the entire roster will build. You have never (and will never, it's too big an undertaking) balanced champions on whether or not their damage comes from auto attacks or from abilities. Shyvana does EVERYTHING on auto attacks, and therefore tends to be a bit crazy when on-hit items are strong, and tends to be weak when they're weak. Renekton does all his damage based on total AD, and therefore tends to be strong when AD items are strong or at the least other items are not stronger than tank items.

So you add Hydra but your lamentation is that it only appears to be good on Shyvana. My only response is... duh. All the auto attack bruisers have been balanced against BotRK, with new releases getting fucking %HP true damage for AD just to ensure they don't go with the low AD trinity/BotRK route (Fiora.) Jax will never be competitive again so lets just forget him.

The second item is Sterak's Gage or something like that. Another bargin bin discount item that bruisers didn't need, didn't ask for, and got anyway. Why is it only bruisers get mid 2000 gold items as essential parts of their kit? You can pretty much separate mid and late game bruisers by whether or not they can go BotRK, and therefore whether or not they can actually add large amounts of gold to their kit before they item cap.

BUT lets look at Irelia. Titanic doesn't need you to have high damage already to be viable like Hydra does. THE PROBLEM, and I'm going to tell you the solution, is you've made it's active a 20 second CD. What's worse is the active is an auto attack reset instead of an animation cancel nuke. That means champions like Renekton and Olaf who are already hard hit to land auto attacks between their abilities yet like Hydra actually would do WORSE with this item. Worse yet is the 20 second CD means you get it once per fight. So you look at champions like Irelia and the question becomes "will this item help me win fights more than other items." Well it'll proc on her Q which is nice, but the proc on her Q is going to do maybe 10 or 15 more damage than hydra would. Then the active is double the CD of hydra's but might supply a good 100 more damage then the Hydra proc would.

Now ask yourself, do these numbers justify going 3300 gold out of your way for an item you wouldn't have built anyway? Not to mention that the strongest part of Hydra is the AoE lifesteal so you can autowin the laning phase, something that Titanic gives up. Want the solution? How do you make an item that isn't too OP for auto attackers, and isn't too OP for ability users, yet still powerful for tanks? Make it almost entirely activate dependent.

Make it something like, 50 damage, regular cleave for 60% damage, and then the active is a 10 second CD that goes down by 1 second for each auto attack, 2 seconds for each ability use/1 on multihit abilities. Same 10% HP damage. Now THERE'S an item that starts to look better for all champions. Ability bruisers that went BC for the 20% CDR go "well I can use more abilities so that's a lot of synergy with Titanic!" auto attack users go "wwell it doesn't help my auto attacks so much, but I can land a lot more of those procs!" Irelia would like it, Shyvana would like it, Gnar would like it, Renekton would like it, Olaf would like it. And change it's effect back to an animation cancelling nuke.

So it would read something like: 3300 gold. 50 damage. 100% health regen. 60% cleave on autos. Active: Does 100% AD + 10% HP in an AoE around you. This active is reduced by 1 second for each auto attack, 2 seconds for each ability use/1 second for multi hit abilities.

That allows auto attacks to spam it, but by late game doing maybe 150-200 damage (their auto attacks) and another ~300-350 damage so lets say 500 physical damage isn't really THAT big of a stretch. I mean, trinity adds 30 damage to each auto, at LEAST 200+ per proc, as well as the 15 other effects it does. So auto attacks get to spam the active more, but it would do less damage. Champions like Renekton would get to spam it less, but they'd do a little more damage on it. Without using the active it's a horribly stat inefficient item by like 1000 gold. With the active it starts to look a little better. Maybe a bit too weak? But at the least it would help to merge auto attack bruisers and non-auto attack bruisers in to a single item. Rather than your current idea which is... well a bit whacky. (Also ability bruisers would have BC, which would help.)

I know you don't have enough time on PBE, but just throw it out there anyway. Lord knows you never had any issue with Luden's and Athene's and BT and the entire AD rework and BC and Trinity and etc. So if it really is broken hard then you can go "welp, we tried." If it isn't then you have an item that bruisers would actually like. It would also be another little trick to lower the winrate of bruisers at low ELO where they thrive because you're adding another skill to their rotations that they have to manage, which low ELO tends to suck at.

JustBoneBrook1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s2cW5jF0,comment-id=000700010001,timestamp=2015-08-14T18:57:11.011+0000)

The bigger problem is that Atma's rewards you with raw AD for health, which half the roster uses well. That means that when Atma's is efficient, it's efficient on everyone and you tend to see it crowd out everything else, and when it's not efficient, nobody uses it well. Titanic Hydra requires you to use on-hit effects fairly well to be fully efficient, so it shouldn't crowd everything else out when strong and it should still be useful to some champions when relatively weaker (as long as the numbers aren't too far off from balanced, of course).

I dont know but i played akali whit titanic hydra it work well And let be fair the only item that not 50% of the champ can't build is like item 3124 item 3085 item 3091 item 3060 item 3222 Else it useally work for a large part of the champ Exemple item 3031 work on all ADC + most Assassin, item 3074 work on all top (if it not range like Vayne of Vlad) What i meen is well there is item that work for alot of champ it dont meen it dont work in the game.

Need Gold 4 Tent1 votes

Crit chance was there to make it slightly inefficient for AD casters (but Garen loved it though). I suppose they wanted to tone it down so people who autoattacked only benefit from it. I predict Irelia/Xin/WW/Shyvana and maybe bruiser Yi if he still exists, might get it now.

Teridax687 votes

It definitely covers a very similar niche, though I think there are a few crucial differences. Atma's helped bruisers deal damage while getting tanky, but it did so by just giving free stats for building another stat that didn't even exist on the item itself, and so was boring and poorly optimized. Its implementation also made it either an auto-buy on literally every bruiser whenever it or health items were strong, or completely useless when they weren't, whereas Titanic Hydra seems like it's a bit more specific (its health-to-physical damage applies only on basic attacks, so it doesn't just inflate the scalings on every bruiser's abilities).

I also think SotD got sort-of-succeeded by Typhoon Claws, which took its triple-auto effect and toyed with it a little. The original item wasn't very well-designed (it was ultra-binary and impossible to balance correctly), but this new iteration looks a lot better, and if made permanent could be a good alternative to item 3710 on laners. Executioner's Calling is a lot less likely to resurface, though, due to Grievous Wounds being phased out from the game, but I hope we get more AD + crit items beyond just item 3031 and item 3142 (Mirage Blade looks like it could be a really cool permanent addition to the game, too).

aaronconlin4 votes

I definitely hope they make another version of Executioner's Calling. We've been lacking an AD Grievious Wounds item to go against heavy sustain champs.

Trebbi4 votes

{quoted}

I definitely hope they make another version of Executioner's Calling. We've been lacking an AD Grievious Wounds item to go against heavy sustain champs.

They will most likely remove grievous wounds from Morrellonomicon before they add an AD grivous wound item.

Remlap12233 votes

Meanwhile the erections of Vlad, Voli, Akali, Swain, Warwick, and Aatrox mains just hit the bottom of their desks.

ahferroin72 votes

Except that there are supposedly reworks in bound after that for how sustain works. (That is, without GW, they can actually alance sustain properly).

doombotMECHA1 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile the erections of Vlad, Voli, Akali, Swain, Warwick, and Aatrox mains just hit the bottom of their desks.

aatrox i get, ww i get, voli i get, but vlad, akali, and swain? swain doesn't even auto that much.

Anidan1 votes

Hue.

He's saying that without Grievous Wounds, those guys will have sustain for days. Granted, Rito mentioned a change in how sustain will work but still.

Rustling Bush1 votes

{quoted}

I definitely hope they make another version of Executioner's Calling. We've been lacking an AD Grievious Wounds item to go against heavy sustain champs.

it was removed for that reason, sustain champions can't do their jobs with that item in the way. it will be a niche item but would be unbalancible, it would be really weak or to strong for its own good.

Meep Man4 votes

It's a really good Atma's Impaler that can only be used through attacking and only Melee. Its a refined Atma's basically.

I want to try it on huge health Tanks/Bruisers such as DrMundo Nautilus Nasus RekSai Renekton Shen Sion

I am really scared of Renekton since this item gives him late game scaling, especially if he uses his empowered W (I think). He can build full tank and then deal serious AoE damage late game. Return of King Renekton?

Remlap12233 votes

Nope, the return of Sion. Sion's going to hit like a freaking truck after this. I already built Hydra on him, this item is just going to be even more efficient on him.

Davy Crockett1 votes

Not unless Darius gets nerfed to hell with the nerfbat, which is pretty much Renekton's only counter imo, its possible to beat darius, but im not experienced in that match up, and feeding and surrendering at 20 isnt a viable option.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

[{quoted}](name=FLiQ Gr1d1ron,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s2cW5jF0,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2015-08-14T15:27:51.509+0000)

Not unless Darius gets nerfed to hell with the nerfbat, which is pretty much Renekton's only counter imo, its possible to beat darius, but im not experienced in that match up, and feeding and surrendering at 20 isnt a viable option.

What? Renekton has a lot of counters Vladimir Trundle Gangplank Kennen Shen Lulu Jayce

SH Azykan1 votes

I don't think Shen counters renekton... Renekton easy shoves lane vs Shen, can duel him pretty much all game, and can interrupt Shen's Ult. Renekton also sustains in the lane just as well if not better.

It is another one of those if you lock in shen, you lose lane and pretty much have to make good uses of your ult and tp.

Anidan1 votes

That's what Shen is there for. You don't go in expecting to win your own lane as Shen; you go in to win another player's lane for them.

xxxDogmanxxx1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Davy Crockett,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s2cW5jF0,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2015-08-14T15:27:51.509+0000)

Not unless Darius gets nerfed to hell with the nerfbat, which is pretty much Renekton's only counter imo, its possible to beat darius, but im not experienced in that match up, and feeding and surrendering at 20 isnt a viable option.

What the heck are you talking about? Darius in the early game is easily one of the most simple-to-punish champions in the entire league when you have a gap closer, and Renekton has two. After he uses his Q, you just dodge it then gapclose into him and go ham while his auto-attack is on cooldown (seriously, Darius's attack animation is so slow). Then back off and repeat.

IceKingChernobog2 votes

you're forgetting Volibear

7ha7guy7771 votes

Titanic sterak's and trinity force. Sounds scary. Hp scaling damage on autos, hp scaling damage on W, a shield and massive hp regen when he gets low, 25 or 50% increased base ad with 200% base ad on hit after abilities. Maybe finish off the build with spirit visage and deadman's plate with boots of choice.

Remlap12232 votes

Oh god Voli's going to become meta kill me fucking now.

IceKingChernobog1 votes

he was pretty meta when tanks were the dominating junglers, he just got overshadowed by grag, sej, and sion

ZeichiVos1 votes

People are freaking out about this item, but atm the scaling isn't that insane. If you get 4k health, you're getting a 400 dmg proc on the active before resistances, and 40 bonus ad from the passive on autos. To make it really strong, you need not just a ton of health, but atk speed as well. In short, expect Shyvana and tank Warwick before you get Renekton I'd say. Its just the weaker early, better late on bruisers version of item 3074 .

kJs1 votes

I think Sion beats them all in the health department - that is an actually useful amount of health.

If you haven't seen Pawnce's video of unkillable Sion, you should watch it. He easily hits 6500 health with Sion mid to late game with tank-like armor and magic resist. And it actually makes him useful stacking that much health (he can tank better with his W) now with Titanic Hydra he's going to be dealing damage with AA with that much health as well. Sion doesn't need to build damage with his Q or E or ultimate, because if you're the tank your job will just be disruption from those three abilities. Can't wait to play Sion.

Budupops4 votes

Actually the only reason it was made was for renekton to be played at worlds

WutsKraken3 votes

It's...interesting. It'll have nice synergy with high HP autoattackers but not quite with tanky AD casters

junglerboy162 votes

Uh, DUH!

Seriously, they even mentioned Atma's when discussing the design behind Titanic hydra. They removed Atma's because it was broken when good, and unusable when bad and said that it was being taken out so they could potentially put out a satisfying replacement, which they have.

Davy Crockett2 votes

TIme to rethink my support leona build (trust me, if your team is lacking damage, build a tiamat on leona support, it will do wonders).

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

Finally I'll be able to play my Malphite build that was taken away when they changed his w. 'The Wedge' Ravenous Hydra, Iceborn Gauntlet, Banner of Command, Sunfiire Cape, Zzrot Portal, and Merc Treds. My ultimate splitpush Malphite build will be back with Titanic Hydra.

Daxterr2 votes

item 3150 in the real game please Rito.

TheVishual1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord of Iwul,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s2cW5jF0,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-08-14T12:42:55.496+0000)

... is Riot's another attempt at making Atma's Impaler? Atma's Impaler was item that was giving bonus AD for how much health you had, it was removed in patch 4.21, if I recall it right. When you think about it, Titanic Hydra will serve the same role: it is going to reward you with extra damage for building HP, just instead of giving extra AD, it is giving increasing on-hit damage.

I think it's cool that Riot is trying to implement similar mechanics of removed items into new items. Who knows, maybe we will see other removed niche items return in such maner, maybe Executioner's Calling, or Sword of the Divine? Well, time will show, but now we can officially announce: Atma's Impaler is reincarnated.

It's almost as if Riot forget about metagolem.... if you don't know what that is you didn't play season 1 probably

Catastrop1 votes

I wonder if it will be possible again.

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