Kalista's E Completely Blows Twitch's E Out of the Water

Prospector Pete·Aug 18, 2015·178 votes·14,234 views

Kalista's E is currently way stronger than Twitch's E. It stacks infinitely, has a super strong slow, its cooldown resets on kill and refunds mana, and it does a lot more damage.

Maybe Twitch's E could do something special like steal AD from enemies for a short period of time.

EDIT: Wow, this got a lot of attention! Thank you guys! And for you saying that Twitch has a trade off in that he does true damage over time, the maximum damage it does is 216 later in the game.

171 Comments

BoxOfDOGAug 18, 201515 votes

Fact is guys is that the only damaging abilities that Twitch has is his E and his R. The latter of which merely buffs his auto attacks, and has a long cooldown.

Kalista however has an infinitely stacking rend on her E, worthy of being an ultimate instead of an E AND a Q that synergizes with it that ALSO pierces enemies.

Twitch is so reliant on his E in so many ways, that the fact it does practically nothing compared to many other carries is pretty unfair. It needs to have a special passive or something that really reinforces the idea that Twitch is a strong champ with a lot to offer.

abdul569Aug 18, 201512 votes

I personally think that twitch's w should increase it's number of stacks per level instead of the flat 2 at all ranks since it is almost always upgraded last. from 2/3/4/5/6 of his passive stacks per rank along with it's slow which he already has

MarthianAug 18, 20158 votes

They are completely different champions.

Kalista does not have as strong of auto attacks, Twitch can stealth, slow, and positioned properly, devastate a team with his ult. If he needs changes, E being uncapped isn't one of them.

Prospector PeteAug 18, 201520 votes

I didn't say that his E should be uncapped, I said it should have something special. The maximum damage that twitch is gonna do with his E is maybe 400, while Kalista can do almost 2000 damage to enemies like Baron.

MeowKatAug 20, 20151 votes

Well, Kalista's kit is more based on her E.. Twitch has a totally other playstyle. Also, it takes very long time to get many stacks at a target at a time, which can be hard in teamfights

TurquoiseYoshiAug 18, 20158 votes

Maybe have it not scale with his AP. Because why the hell would a Twitch be building AP?

Or maybe give it cooldown and mana refunds on unit kills (like Kalista's E).

Or maybe let Twitch's passive stack up to 10(+?).

Or maybe, when used, give enemies hit full stacks of his passive.

Or maybe nerf Kalista's E.

Only Play DariusAug 18, 20158 votes

Don't forget that she has actual synergy with item 3085 , which allows her to triple the effectiveness of lifesteal and other on-hits.

Meanwhile it's still a noob trap item for literally every other ADC.

CasterGilgameshAug 18, 20152 votes

im suprised no one thinks MissFortune can't use item 3085

NielarkenAug 18, 20151 votes

why would you ever get item 3085 on mf? she already has a crazy attack speed steroid and he stacking magic damage hardly is worth getting this for.

Meeks011Aug 18, 20152 votes

Her attacks deal magic damage scaling with her AD, up to 48%. So Runaan's deals pretty much 98% of your AD, half magic and half physical.

TristyricAug 18, 20153 votes

Not the the main reason you get it. Her Impure shots will stack with Hurricane bolts allowing you to max stacks on multiple targets before channeling your R, which increases the damage done to a group of targets quite substantially. Add this to Black cleavers effect of rending multiple targets armor and her ult becomes something really terrifying if it channels the full way through. The bonus damage her bolts do with her E passive is just icing on the cake. A cake that can be very hard to bake

foinhasAug 18, 20156 votes

that works in theory, except that by the time you hit 8 AA, either the enemy is dead or you are dead

TristyricAug 19, 20152 votes

True that but no one ever said you had to stack ALL of them before you pop ult, though that is the dream.Every stack you add before ult will increase the overall damage of the channel, its better to start from 4-5 stacks than from 1 stack for example. And the more people wearing those stacks the more effective the aoe. Its all about that fine line between effectiveness and greed ^^

TerchioAug 19, 20152 votes

This is generally true, and shouldn't be forgotten on MF. However, I will note that the AS goes completely wasted during the ultimate's channel, you don't scale any ratios for the ultimate, and on top of it, you generally put yourself in harm's way more often if you reserve the ultimate until after stacking. Other than that, though, MF players should be striving for some early hits, if possible.

Nicorus Aug 18, 20158 votes

This is actually a very valid problem. Twitches kit isn't unique. Kalista's E is better than twitches. Other champions can stealth better than twitch can, shaco for example. Twitches w is weak, and the slow is minimal, twitch isn't a great burst champion, and having a kit around that concept is limiting. Twitch just needs a few tweaks, and maybe some champions needs a minor nerf.

gubigubiAug 18, 20157 votes

#revert twitch stealth nerfs ):!

Binxy PrimeAug 18, 20155 votes

Twitch can auto 5 people at a time

KrullyAug 18, 201564 votes

[{quoted}](name=Binxy Prime,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rz7EaKTI,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-08-18T17:23:38.725+0000)

Twitch can auto 5 people at a time

if they stand in a line and let him

Rew711Aug 18, 20154 votes

Honestly, Twitch's passive should just be based of 0.05% of his AD. Kalista isn't easy as well. I'd rather play against a Kalista than a Jinx or Vayne.

AazzlanoAug 18, 201525 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, Twitch's passive should just be based of 0.05% of his AD. Kalista isn't easy as well. I'd rather play against a Kalista than a Jinx or Vayne.

0.05%? So you need 2000 AD to get 1 more point of damage?

Rew711Aug 19, 20155 votes

That % was a mistake... I was saying 5% of his AD. The 0.05 is also 5%. So, instead of 2000, it would just take 20. So, when he starts out, with about 60 AD, he will have plenty... Forget this. I forgot why I made it 3%, and now I remember. If he has 60 AD, he would deal almost 2 damage per second, but with 5% he could deal 3 damage per second. I don't want to up his early, that would be ridiculous. This also means that he will need some AD now to get further in late or we can change it to level up as in 3/4/5% of his AD as he levels from to 1/6/12. That way, at later levels, even if he only has 120 AD, he can still get to 6 damage per second easily.

PepijndMAug 19, 20152 votes

Because 6 damage per second is like totally tank busting lategame...

FatcowrayAug 20, 20152 votes

late game depending on the build he could have ~250 or more damage, which would turn into 12.5 dmg per second which stacks 6 times and would turn into 75 true damage per second or more which isnt bad

HeadHydraAug 20, 20151 votes

2 DAMAGE OH SHIT

Rew711Aug 20, 20151 votes

His original passive allows up to 2 DPS (stacks up to 6 times) at level 1 if I remember correctly. It could be 1 DPS. This change can allow almost up to 3 DPS in early if you can do it.

Meeks011Aug 18, 201513 votes

Come on guys, it's extremely likely they'll all align perfectly for the entire duration of your ultimate and then stand there to let him hit them.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 18, 201521 votes

For 7 seconds, on a base cooldown of 100 (at the lowest), if an enemy team is in a straight line, and with only one enemy taking full damage.

KrullyAug 18, 20154 votes

they buffed it too which is the funny thing...

Prospector PeteAug 18, 20153 votes

Kalista's E or Twitch's E?

KrullyAug 18, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Prospector Pete,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rz7EaKTI,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-08-18T17:21:38.640+0000)

Kalista's E or Twitch's E?

kalista when they nerfed her jump attack

A Miss FortuneAug 18, 20154 votes

I think one of the main problems is how useless his passive is in general. Sure you're bound to execute someone with it maybe once in a few games, but early game it doesn't even do damage, it just stops or even just lowers their health regen. Playing Twitch is pretty depressing when the enemy Morgana Support has 2 health but is regenerating more than your passive is doing in true damage.

Twitch's Passive and E go together and I think his E is the only thing that makes him viable right now, I think Twitch's passive needs a buff since the damage is minor throughout the game. Taking the full duration, of the maximum stacks, at the maximum level of the passive, he can do 216 true damage if I remember. But then again his auto attacks can potentially do triple that damage.

Sure people can argue It's true damage, but the damage doesn't even do anything until later on in the game, and a health pot totally nullifies his passive. It's probably one of the worst in the game because at least Zyra's is instant and does double Twitch's passive all at once.

Meeks011Aug 18, 20152 votes

Yeah, about 5 times per game someone will escape with 10-50 health with max passive stacks but I won't get the kill.

SoMNiaAug 18, 20154 votes

It already does something special: true damage over time. It's like half an ignite free with your autoattacks. E also has better base damage, and it doesn't remove the stacks. Kalista also doesn't have stealth, an attack speed steroid, or an ult that increases AD and attack range. AND her attacks are only 90% scaling, so she needs the extra damage from Rend to apply on EVERY autoattack, and she STILL falls behind in damage. Look at the whole package.

JAGMAGZAug 18, 20152 votes

who needs stealth when you can hop hop hop around? plus a kalstia will get of wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more autos then most other adcs plus her rend is freaking strong compared to twitches e

LeeDarkAug 18, 20155 votes

No, it's not even close to half an ignite. What you forget is that Ignite doesn't require 5 seconds of autoattacking someone in order to get its maximum damage, AND it reduces health regen, thus making its damage over time more effective.

Twitch, on the other hand, has to attack someone AT LEAST four times, assuming he landed Venom Cask, and he doesn't reduce their regen at all, so during the six seconds of his DoT, they are regenerating health at full.

Add to this the fact that FULLY STACKED, Twitch's Contaminate still has less BASE damage than most spells in the game, and you get a truly underwhelming champion.

Currently, Twitch is the worst ADC in the game, bar none. THAT is what happens when you look at the whole package.

InsolublefluffAug 20, 20153 votes

This post shows a massive lack of understanding of critical thinking. By selecting a single ability in isolation you are ignoring all of the other elements that justify why Twitch is also a powerful champion.

I could agree that perhaps Twitch is a little too vulnerable right now. However, I do not believe it is necessarily his kit that is letting him down, but his itemization.

I would suggest that besides his ultimate being an AoE team fight destroyer, twitch identifies to stealth, sneak attack and assassination.

With that theme in mind, Twitch could use buffs to his stealth ability. Decreasing the time to stealth and increasing the movement speed would be a great boost to his power in a game that is making it easier to detect stealthy champions.

If Kalista E was given to Twitch, or even if it remained the same with comparable damage, he would be permanently banned due to the insane power he would have.

TransgressorAug 20, 20152 votes

Logic and solid arguments that don't dry hump the circlejerking bandwagon? What are you doing here? These concepts are as alien to the LoL boards as gluten to hipsters. You can't expect to have your opinion taken seriously and have a productive exchange by rank elitists that spam dumb .gifs "Rito" and "LC$BIGPLAYS". But you do have every right in the world to state your opinion nonetheless.

But I digress, I agree with you completely.

AuryielAug 18, 20152 votes

It should go back to consuming his passive and then apply a debuff that increases Twitch's passive damage by a lot

Twitch's passive is supposed to allow him tiowin long trades... Well give him tools to do just that or switch to a more assassin playstyle

Either way Twitch needs more changes than just number tuning IMO

KamikazeSquirrelAug 18, 20152 votes

Twitch is worse than a superminion. Might aswell play ap ghost clarity support riven then.

JAGMAGZAug 18, 20153 votes

no id rather have a twitch on my team then a super minion

Hyrum GraffAug 18, 20152 votes

So, I agree with you, but not for the reasons you said.

Stregnth isn't a good reason to change twitch's E. Twitch is balanced around his E; Kalista around hers. That's like saying Brand's Q completely blows Ryze's Q out of the water because they're both single-target linear skillshots and Brand's does more damage.

I do think that Twitch's E isn't a super interesting ability -- all it does is incentivize him to do extended trades -- and I'd love to see there be a little more decision-making around it. Compare Kalista's, "Do I have enough damage stacked up to get the kill and reset, or am I going to neuter my damage output?" decision vs Twitch's, "Are they about to go out of range? If not, do I have max stacks?"

Your suggested example would add something interesting: "Do I activate now to steal their AD and go for an all-in, or do I wait to activate so I can get a better trade?"

Kuma No NekoAug 19, 20151 votes

That's a horrible comparison, Ryze's is not objectively worse than Brand's. It has a shorter cooldown,scales with mana and can be cast 13 times a second with his passive. Twitch's is objectively worse and your reasoning why it is not a real reason

Hyrum GraffAug 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

can be cast 13 times a second with his passive

Thank you for proving my point: things are different when you consider the entire kit.

Kalista doesn't get invis. Kalista doesn't get an aoe slow that also applies stacks (if she uses hers to peel for herself or try to catch someone, now she's locked out of using E until it comes off cooldown). She doesn't get extra range and penetrating rounds, or bonus AD, during her ult.

She's a completely different champion. Even if they did have literally the same ability where one was objectively numbers tuned lower than the other, you still can't say anything about the champion's state as a whole because you're not considering the rest of their kit.

Kuma No NekoAug 20, 20151 votes

Twitch invis is for escaping or catching someone, Kalista's passive lets her do that. Kalista has a slow too if you didn't know that. Kalista's E can do 3x or more damage than Twitch's E and has a slow and guess what? Twitch can't use his E while it's on cool down either! And don't talk like the poison does damage anymore. The only advantage Twitch has is his ult but Kalista also has teamfight power with her ult so

Hyrum GraffAug 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Twitch invis is for escaping or catching someone, Kalista's passive lets her do that.

It lets her kite and chase while she's already in range. Twitch's is for getting into and out of range. Plus, it gives him an AS steroid.

Kalista has a slow too if you didn't know that. Kalista's E can do 3x or more damage than Twitch's E and has a slow and guess what? Twitch can't use his E while it's on cool down either!

I literally mentioned Kali's slow in the comment you're replying to. If she uses E for the slow she can't damage anyone else with rend for a while. Twitch can slow, keep aa-ing, and then expunge (or contaminate. It'll always be expunge to me). That was my point.

And don't talk like the poison does damage anymore. The only advantage Twitch has is his ult but Kalista also has teamfight power with her ult so

And kalista doesn't build crit, and does 90% damage on her aa's.

Look, kalista frustrates me as much as the next guy. Not because I think she's OP outside of pro play, but because I think she's way too safe for her skill ceiling.

But that's beside the point. The point is, I don't care if Kali is OP or not, you can't make s comparison between two abilities without the context of the rest of the kit.

kile147Aug 18, 20152 votes

Twitch's E is weak, but it's worth noting that Kalista can only use rend once on a target without restacking, whereas Twitch's doesn't consume his passive stacks.

Meeks011Aug 18, 20151 votes

Kalista's E will be dealing twice as much damage so you don't even need to stack again. And she can easily get above 6 stacks in the 8 second cooldown.

Also, how the fuck is Twitch going to keep the stacks ticking? Kalista will be using her infinite dashes to keep stacks into you and Twitch will barely be able to keep up.

kile147Aug 18, 20152 votes

He has immense range? I didn't say it was an even trade, but a lot of people ask for things like cooldown reset on his E when it kills something, apparently forgetting that it doesn't remove stacks upon use.

StraleyAug 18, 20152 votes

Immense range? He has one of the shorter AA ranges and his ult has a long cooldown.

RysophageAug 18, 20152 votes

Kalista has lower range, no stealth, can't cancel her autos, a 90% AD ratio on auto attacks, twich's auto's can't be evaded if you walk out of vision, also kalista dosen't have true damage.