Definition of a Diver

Asayake 5150glow·Feb 5, 2017·1 votes·463 views

Can someone explain to me exactly what a Diver is supposed to do? I'm having difficulty understanding, as I've seen some things which really don't fit by what I _thought _ being a Diver meant, but my definition may be wrong.

14 Comments

BluePolarizerFeb 5, 20173 votes

a tanky DPS champion that can dive in and fight squishy carries. Typically they have engage gapclosers (but not unconditional escapes), a bit of hard CC, and are built for both survivability and DPS.

Irelia XinZhao Jax Renekton are classical divers.

Asayake 5150glowFeb 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

a tanky DPS champion that can dive in and fight squishy carries. Typically they have engage gapclosers (but not unconditional escapes), a bit of hard CC, and are built for both survivability and DPS.

are classical divers.

Ok, are they based more around fighting squishies or tankier targets, or would that be just dependent of each individual diver?

BluePolarizerFeb 5, 20171 votes

Almost every single one's kit is specialized for fighting squishies, though they can itemize for fighting tanks they aren't optimized for it. Like, Jax or Irelia would MUCH rather be diving a Caitlyn or Lux than slugging it out with a Maokai or Darius.

Asayake 5150glowFeb 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Almost every single one's kit is specialized for fighting squishies, though they can itemize for fighting tanks they aren't optimized for it. Like, Jax or Irelia would MUCH rather be diving a Caitlyn or Lux than slugging it out with a Maokai or Darius.

Huh.

Many still seem to have many tools to fight tanks, though, like Vi's W, Irelia's true damage, Camille's true damage, %max health damage, and %max health mixed damage, Renektons sustain and armor shred. Xin's heal means he can sustain while smacking tanks, as well.

BluePolarizerFeb 5, 20171 votes

but it isn't an optimal use of their time, and in teamfights, it's not going to be 1v1 tank vs. diver. I'm sure if you have played divers before, you'd find that if you jump in on a tank in a teamfight you'll get deleted while being completely unable to move. Also, most tanks and juggernauts also have high sustained damage, shields, %HP, armor boosts and/or heals, as well as very high base stats. Xin can sustain while smacking tanks 1v1 only; in a teamfight, he's not going to be doing much smacking since he has no base tankiness. And even 1v1, it's a tossup as to whether Maokai or Xin would win.

Irelia's and Camille's true damage isn't that good against tanks either, since it is flat true damage and is countered by building HP. 75 true damage is a much bigger impact against a 2000 hp squishy than a 4000 hp tank.

Asayake 5150glowFeb 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

but it isn't an optimal use of their time, and in teamfights, it's not going to be 1v1 tank vs. diver. I'm sure if you have played divers before, you'd find that if you jump in on a tank in a teamfight you'll get deleted while being completely unable to move. Also, most tanks and juggernauts also have high sustained damage, shields, %HP, armor boosts and/or heals, as well as very high base stats. Xin can sustain while smacking tanks 1v1 only; in a teamfight, he's not going to be doing much smacking since he has no base tankiness. And even 1v1, it's a tossup as to whether Maokai or Xin would win.

Irelia's and Camille's true damage isn't that good against tanks either, since it is flat true damage and is countered by building HP. 75 true damage is a much bigger impact against a 2000 hp squishy than a 4000 hp tank.

Yeah, but true damage is by design more effective against tanks as you're effectively ignoring more resists, and you're also ignoring damage reduction.

Honestly I'd say it's pretty impossible for Maokai to win a duel against a Bork/Bloodrazor Xin, or if he has any form of AP/lifesteal. But then again Maokai is pretty strong right now, but generally duelists > tanks.

Xin's a pretty prime example of a duelist, however. I'd say he's a duelist first, diver second. He's not a juggernaut, but he can go toe to toe with most of them.

Have to agree Irelia's true damage isn't amazing against tanks, but it means she can still duel them. She didn't get the reputatoin of queen of 1v1's for nothing, back in what, season 3?

BluePolarizerFeb 5, 20171 votes

A BoRK/Bloodrazor Xin spent 6000 gold on nothing but damage as an escapeless melee. What could possibly go wrong?

Take a look at your games. Note your average gold. You won't really get 6 slotted. I average 11000 gold in the jungle in a 30 minute winning game, 9000 in a losing game. How tanky can Xin be with 11000 gold and survive teamfights?

Here's the thing though: duelists can typically duel tanks at full build, 1v1 only, given as much time as needed. That is true. In fact, most divers can duel most tanks, with the notable exception of Rammus. However, in actual games full build is rare, games aren't won on 1v1s and teamfights last seconds. If a Xin or Camille jumps onto the Rammus or Malphite in an actual teamfight by misclick, they're dead. They won't be vaporizing tanks the way skirmishers like Master Yi or Tryndamere would. The tank players would maybe not react for 0.5-1 second due to how amazingly dumb that move was, and then lock them down, tank their damage, maybe take 1/4 or 1/5 HP, and then, they vanish.

Variks the LoyalFeb 5, 20172 votes

Divers typically have a single ability or function that allows them to 'dive' a backline.

Their damage is mostly focused around burst combos, like Renekton's W>R>E>Q>E, followed up by repeated autos.

They're tanky, but not as tanky as a Juggernaut or a proper tank. They trade durabilty for extra mobility.

Aatrox Camille Diana Elise Evelynn Hecarim Irelia JarvanIV Kled LeeSin Nocturne Pantheon RekSai Renekton Warwick MonkeyKing XinZhao

All of these champions are considered Divers. They focus on 'diving' the backline, and bursting the squishies. Unlike an Assassin, though, they subsist within the fight instead of using deception or mobility to escape.

{quoted}

So like an assassin, they prioritize carries and will usually ignore the front line?

Also Rengar has no way out of a fight, and neither does Akali (well I guess Shroud but eh....). Why are they assassins?

Rengar is arguably better classified as a Diver, at least with his current 'bruiser' build.

ŚtrongMentalFeb 5, 20171 votes

Get in, tank, sustain (this is true for towers, and team fights) generally tanks are initial divers...

Asayake 5150glowFeb 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Renegade Xavier,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rxL3PEWU,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-02-05T01:44:47.638+0000)

Get in, tank, sustain (this is true for towers, and team fights) generally tanks are initial divers...

I've heard Diver being used as a term to describe Hecarim Camille , not Maokai Amumu Sion . I'd agree that those tanks are definitely diving, but I believe they go under the sub-category of Vanguards?

SwiftKitten88Feb 5, 20171 votes

a diver is a champ kinda like an assassin.. they are meant to dive into the fight..

except unlike assassins divers have some for of tankiness to stay in the fight, but wont have an escape tool. Diana where as assassin will have a way to get OUT of fight, but would get blown up if they stayed in Nidalee

Asayake 5150glowFeb 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

a diver is a champ kinda like an assassin.. they are meant to dive into the fight..

except unlike assassins divers have some for of tankiness to stay in the fight, but wont have an escape tool. where as assassin will have a way to get OUT of fight, but would get blown up if they stayed in

So like an assassin, they prioritize carries and will usually ignore the front line?

Also Rengar has no way out of a fight, and neither does Akali (well I guess Shroud but eh....). Why are they assassins?

Meep ManFeb 5, 20171 votes

It's like if you combined an Assassin with a Vanguard. That's an easy to describe a Diver. Someone who focused on disabling the enemy back line carry/carries while also dealing heavy damage to them, but usually doesn't have a way out like an Assassin and isn't as tanky or have AoE CC like a Vanguard.

Asayake 5150glowFeb 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chicken Dynasty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rxL3PEWU,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-02-05T02:00:40.126+0000)

It's like if you combined an Assassin with a Vanguard. That's an easy to describe a Diver. Someone who focused on disabling the enemy back line carry/carries while also dealing heavy damage to them, but usually doesn't have a way out like an Assassin and isn't as tanky or have AoE CC like a Vanguard.

Alright... then why do so many of them have antitank tools? Just for QoL outside of diving?