I picked Kindred...

Asayake 5150glow··34 votes·2,508 views

And then I saw the enemy jungler pick Graves, and prepared myself to be outclassed at everything.

48 Comments

Big Lincoln30 votes

You're not outclassed in the THICC category though

Sexy Jack Rabbit5 votes

SHE'S A GOAT YOU SHAMELESS FURRY

TyrekGoldenspear5 votes

*Lamb.

Technically she's a sheep. Raka is a unicorn/goat.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

I knew someone would make this joke about Lamb's bum.

PureSilvrr12 votes

I picked Graves, and saw my enemy pick Lee Sin

I prepared to be outclassed at everything.

Asayake 5150glow17 votes

{quoted}

I picked Graves, and saw my enemy pick Lee Sin

I prepared to be outclassed at everything.

At least he ain't ranged eh?

Divewing15 votes

Patch 7.06: "We realised Lee Sin was melee"

FantasySniper1 votes

I mean, technically he is.

SSJTribe3 votes

I picked _________ and saw my enemy pick Lee Sin

I prepared to be outclassed at everything.

ftfy

PureSilvrr2 votes

Ty

Nymzo9 votes

Off topic but you know what I think is very sad when you pick Kindred?

You don't play Kindred, you play Lamb with a talking zone and empowered auto attack.

AbsoluteSadman1 votes

Amen

FantasySniper1 votes

Biggest disappointment of their theme, tbh.

Great Muta5 votes

Yeah, I don't see a really good reason to pick Kindred now. Talon and Graves with multiple items are going to be dealing 390-490 AD on basics alone. Kindred can't keep up with that. She has low hp/armor, she's super slow, her marks basically tell you where to go to find her and no matter how many kills you are up, you can still get taken down by most assassins.

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

Kindred's ult is the largest no assassins, and that's including Kayle ult, and Tahm Kench.

420 grams2 votes

{quoted}

Kindred's ult is the largest no assassins, and that's including Kayle ult, and Tahm Kench.

Which unfortunately can benefit the enemy team as well

Asayake 5150glow3 votes

{quoted}

Kindred's ult is the largest no assassins, and that's including Kayle ult, and Tahm Kench.

Only if you have means of sustaining after the assassin dies.

Otherwise it just means instead of oneshotting someone and dying, they take someone to 20%, take everyone else around them to 50%, and then die.

Cosmic Hamster6 votes

Her ult is fucking garbage against assassins compared to Kayles ult. Kayle loses no hp, while Kindred can continue to get low as fuck and her ult heals both her and the assassin who will probably manage to burst her down after it. Kayle ults and rapes any assassin

SirLapse3 votes

Graves doesn't outclass Kindred unless you as the player are inexperienced at Kindred. Graves not only has 0 clear knowledge burdens, but his ganks are straightforward and don't require you to time spellcasts (because his AAs tend to be enough), think about enemy positioning (because of free defense stats), or think about a friggin' mini-game to go through during the course of the entire game (because he's not Kindred).

Why use Kindred when Graves is easier to play and has a burst skill? That's the mentality for most players higher up and the lower elo sheep just follow without needing to know the reasons.

Kindred has better scaling than Graves due to being attack speed based, is NOT required to go for jungle marks when they immediately pop up (allowing for mindgames that are essentially free), has better anti-kiting on ganks, and has a game changing ultimate when used correctly. You can even invade Graves if you're good enough. Would like misinformed posts to be avoided and for you to be experienced with what Kindred can do before declaring this stuff (even if you're low elo you still have access to higher elo Kindred scores, gameplay, and general performance).

Asayake 5150glow5 votes

{quoted}

Graves doesn't outclass Kindred unless you as the player are inexperienced at Kindred. Graves not only has 0 clear knowledge burdens, but his ganks are straightforward and don't require you to time spellcasts (because his AAs tend to be enough), think about enemy positioning (because of free defense stats), or think about a friggin' mini-game to go through during the course of the entire game (because he's not Kindred).

Why use Kindred when Graves is easier to play and has a burst skill? That's the mentality for most players higher up and the lower elo sheep just follow without needing to know the reasons.

Kindred has better scaling than Graves due to being attack speed based, is NOT required to go for jungle marks when they immediately pop up (allowing for mindgames that are essentially free), has better anti-kiting on ganks, and has a game changing ultimate when used correctly. You can even invade Graves if you're good enough. Would like misinformed posts to be avoided and for you to be experienced with what Kindred can do before declaring this stuff (even if you're low elo you still have access to higher elo Kindred scores, gameplay, and general performance).

Ah, let me tell you this.

Graves does not need to counter jungle at all to be effective. He can sit in his own jungle and clear your marks easily. Attack Speed does not outclass AD when those two autos, Q, and ult are plenty to take out 100% of your health already.

I know fairly well what Kindred can do, but her main use is damage. Her utility, besides her ult, is next to nothing. Even Graves's smoke screen is stronger.

I believe Graves far outclasses Kindred in terms of damage come mid-late game. His capacity to burst is much more effective than being able to DPS someone down in 3 seconds.

In this game, I did fine, but that was because I found him early and killed him, both because I was at full health from using a Honeyfruit while he was at 80% and because Kindred's early game is stronger if the return Q is juked. And I think I also had red buff. From there, I snowballed.

Had I not killed him early game, he would've outclassed me for the rest of the game because he simply did more damage than me, and faster.

Honestly, I can't help but think that there is almost nothing Kindred does better than Graves. Her ult is all she's got going for her, but her burst is negligable, and in the current meta, burst is all that matters.

SirLapse2 votes

{quoted}

Ah, let me tell you this.

Graves does not need to counter jungle at all to be effective. He can sit in his own jungle and clear your marks easily. Attack Speed does not outclass AD when those two autos, Q, and ult are plenty to take out 100% of your health already.

Except the changes to the jungle mark system makes Scuttle the first mark. DPS always outscales burst when we're involving the fact that Graves is still an ADC and still needs items. A full combo from Graves won't even kill a Kindred if you build Tabi and are ahead of him already. I've fought Graves already and didn't have a fed Jax to carry me.

Not to mention that when Raptors could still be marked, that Graves would either surrender the mark or die for taking it because he doesn't do well clearing it at lv2.

I know fairly well what Kindred can do, but her main use is damage. Her utility, besides her ult, is next to nothing. Even Graves's smoke screen is stronger.

She's a ganking jungler. You can't be seriously defining junglers on "they do damage" because literally every jungler has to do damage to succeed in this meta. Her ult utility is useless if you don't know how to use it either, so that's only confirming to me that you have no idea how to use it if you're willing to call it useless.

I believe Graves far outclasses Kindred in terms of damage come mid-late game. His capacity to burst is much more effective than being able to DPS someone down in 3 seconds.

You can juke his Q if it's not a wall, his Smokescreen can be juked out of, and his AAs will scale worse unless you've died early to him. Skirmisher's Sabre benefits more from multiple attacks compared to the low AAs that Graves launches out (which the 20% damage reduction works even better on), meaning if you duel it out early with him, you only need to Smite him and you win. Tells me you've not fought Graves as Kindred often or seen any matches other than your own.

In this game, I did fine, but that was because I found him early and killed him, both because I was at full health from using a Honeyfruit while he was at 80% and because Kindred's early game is stronger if the return Q is juked. And I think I also had red buff. From there, I snowballed.

You just proved that you can beat a Graves early as Kindred just by dodging his extremely telegraphed Q. His HP doesn't matter because you're going to be hitting him for over half his health in base damage. He also can't stack True Grit easily unless he's already started to do a camp.

Had I not killed him early game, he would've outclassed me for the rest of the game because he simply did more damage than me, and faster.

Had you not taken advantage of the fact that Kindred outclasses Graves, he would've taken advantage of you allowing him to build items and snowball the game. Who would've figured?

Honestly, I can't help but think that there is almost nothing Kindred does better than Graves. Her ult is all she's got going for her, but her burst is negligable, and in the current meta, burst is all that matters.

She's not a burst champion outside of the early stages of the game, and even then her E is too slow to effectively be called a burst skill. Burst is not all that matters in this meta, see Warwick, Zac, Ivern. In cases like Graves, you outdo him in everything because of higher DPS and efficiency unless you're a terrible Kindred player.

Asayake 5150glow6 votes

{quoted}

Except the changes to the jungle mark system makes Scuttle the first mark. DPS always outscales burst when we're involving the fact that Graves is still an ADC and still needs items. A full combo from Graves won't even kill a Kindred if you build Tabi and are ahead of him already. I've fought Graves already and didn't have a fed Jax to carry me.

DPS never outscales burst until one becomes tanky enough for burst to no longer oneshot, which doesn't really happen this game. Also, Jax didn't help me with the first kill - he just nearly ks'd it with a Q as Graves was running away.

She's a ganking jungler. You can't be seriously defining junglers on "they do damage" because literally every jungler has to do damage to succeed in this meta. Her ult utility is useless if you don't know how to use it either, so that's only confirming to me that you have no idea how to use it if you're willing to call it useless.

You can define them as "they do damage" when they do almost nothing else, however. Both Graves and Kindred fall in this catagory.

You can juke his Q if it's not a wall, his Smokescreen can be juked out of, and his AAs will scale worse unless you've died early to him. Skirmisher's Sabre benefits more from multiple attacks compared to the low AAs that Graves launches out (which the 20% damage reduction works even better on), meaning if you duel it out early with him, you only need to Smite him and you win. Tells me you've not fought Graves as Kindred often or seen any matches other than your own.

Yes, yes, and no. Graves scales well with gold and becomes very effective just by farming. Skirmishers Sabre does not distinguish between multiple autos and few autos as long as it's burn effect is reapplied often enough to never run out. Damage reduction is equal to multiple attacks or few attacks. If you duel it early, then you will win, but mid game on if you haven't snowballed, you'll lose.

You just proved that you can beat a Graves early as Kindred just by dodging his extremely telegraphed Q. His HP doesn't matter because you're going to be hitting him for over half his health in base damage. He also can't stack True Grit easily unless he's already started to do a camp.

If I've got 10 marks I'm going to take roughly 45% of his health in a single second, 40% from %current health damage and items, and the rest from Q. However, Graves is gonna take 20% of my health in a single auto, 30%+ from Q's, which he may or may hit both of (it's not rare to be standing near a wall in the jungle), and 30% with his ult. Basically, he can 100-0 me mid-late game, while I will DPS him over 2~3 seconds.

Had you not taken advantage of the fact that Kindred outclasses Graves, he would've taken advantage of you allowing him to build items and snowball the game. Who would've figured?

Oh, so if we both had a completely neutral jungle, he would've come out on top? When Kindred is a scaling marksman and Graves is supposed to fall off due to being low range?

She's not a burst champion outside of the early stages of the game, and even then her E is too slow to effectively be called a burst skill. Burst is not all that matters in this meta, see Warwick, Zac, Ivern. In cases like Graves, you outdo him in everything because of higher DPS and efficiency unless you're a terrible Kindred player.

Exactly.

Warwick Q is 100% burst and is actually a great deal of his damage, especially in ganks.

Almost all of Zac's ganking damage and damage to squishies is from his E, which he maxes for burst, not his W. His W does damage in teamfights, but a great majority of his damage is loaded into E burst.

Ivern's only real damage is his Q, which is burst. Other than that, he's a utility support.

SirLapse2 votes

{quoted}

DPS never outscales burst until one becomes tanky enough for burst to no longer oneshot, which doesn't really happen this game. Also, Jax didn't help me with the first kill - he just nearly ks'd it with a Q as Graves was running away.

He literally can't oneshot you in the early game. How difficult is that for you to understand?

You can define them as "they do damage" when they do almost nothing else, however. Both Graves and Kindred fall in this catagory.

We have categories that actually differentiate junglers. It seems you're not in the know. Gankers, farmers, and counterjunglers/invaders. The last one specifically got easier for all junglers to do due to jungle changes, but we still have the first two classifications. In those we have the subtypes of tanks, assassins, etc. If you go on generalizing then you won't know the strength behind a pick, much less a weakness.

Yes, yes, and no. Graves scales well with gold and becomes very effective just by farming. Skirmishers Sabre does not distinguish between multiple autos and few autos as long as it's burn effect is reapplied often enough to never run out. Damage reduction is equal to multiple attacks or few attacks. If you duel it early, then you will win, but mid game on if you haven't snowballed, you'll lose.

Every marksman including Kindred scales well with gold. The important reason to mention Skirmisher's is that your cutting his low DPS early even further and increase your own. It is basically impossible for him to be killing you unless he was the person prepared to fight and initiating it with a successful Q, which is telegraphed and your own Q jukes. Some quick math also, you will be getting in one extra AA where Graves is reloading. If he does two 90 damage hits vs. your 56 damage hits, you will beat him beginning on the 4th auto with Skirmisher up. That means you automatically win if you start the fight mathematically on AAs ALONE.

If I've got 10 marks I'm going to take roughly 45% of his health in a single second, 40% from %current health damage and items, and the rest from Q. However, Graves is gonna take 20% of my health in a single auto, 30%+ from Q's, which he may or may hit both of (it's not rare to be standing near a wall in the jungle), and 30% with his ult. Basically, he can 100-0 me mid-late game, while I will DPS him over 2~3 seconds.

Ninja Tabi says no to that, GA is a common item when a Kindred is snowballed, and your ultimate invalidates his ability to ever defeat you. I've beaten Graves without having more than 3 marks by mid-game because I severely denied him any chance to recover. At no point did he ever do over 11% of my HP in damage on a single hit.

Oh, so if we both had a completely neutral jungle, he would've come out on top? When Kindred is a scaling marksman and Graves is supposed to fall off due to being low range?

Graves doesn't fall-off. His kit is made to succeed more in ganks once he hits lv6, and if you haven't gotten any jumps on him then you've wasted your advantage and therefore deserve to lose. Graves is really good at snowballing games due to the ease of that dynamic, and both Kindred and Graves do the same job of ganking lanes.

Warwick Q is 100% burst and is actually a great deal of his damage, especially in ganks.

The hell? I hope you're trolling. In case you aren't, a WW is completely sustained damage, aka DPS. Your entire goal is to outlast their HP and function as an initiating tank that can take a ton of punishment.

Almost all of Zac's ganking damage and damage to squishies is from his E, which he maxes for burst, not his W. His W does damage in teamfights, but a great majority of his damage is loaded into E burst.

Ivern's only real damage is his Q, which is burst. Other than that, he's a utility support.

A burst champion has a kit designed to burst, not possessing bursting components that are reliant on base damage in the early game. A Graves will still burst in teamfights, a Zac will not unless very ahead. Your game knowledge is really poor if you don't know what I mean when I say burst champion. 100-0 or at the very least most of the opponent's HP within a small window.

Asayake 5150glow3 votes

{quoted}

He literally can't oneshot you in the early game. How difficult is that for you to understand?

And how the hell does early game have anything to do with how he scales?

We have categories that actually differentiate junglers. It seems you're not in the know. Gankers, farmers, and counterjunglers/invaders. The last one specifically got easier for all junglers to do due to jungle changes, but we still have the first two classifications. In those we have the subtypes of tanks, assassins, etc. If you go on generalizing then you won't know the strength behind a pick, much less a weakness.

Assassins, divers, and marksmen junglers only really differentiate once they get out of laning phase. Assassins fuck marksman - Kindred's a marksman, Graves is an assasin.

Every marksman including Kindred scales well with gold. The important reason to mention Skirmisher's is that your cutting his low DPS early even further and increase your own. It is basically impossible for him to be killing you unless he was the person prepared to fight and initiating it with a successful Q, which is telegraphed and your own Q jukes. Some quick math also, you will be getting in one extra AA where Graves is reloading. If he does two 90 damage hits vs. your 56 damage hits, you will beat him beginning on the 4th auto with Skirmisher up. That means you automatically win if you start the fight mathematically on AAs ALONE.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Kindred does not scale well with gold - the only stats worth buying on her are attack speed, armor pen, and defensive stats. Gold rarely supplies those effectively.

Like I said, Kindred wins early game and is heavily outclassed come mid game.

Ninja Tabi says no to that, GA is a common item when a Kindred is snowballed, and your ultimate invalidates his ability to ever defeat you. I've beaten Graves without having more than 3 marks by mid-game because I severely denied him any chance to recover. At no point did he ever do over 11% of my HP in damage.

But it doesn't - if mages have been complaining about getting oneshot when they have Zhonyas, how is a measly Ninja Tabi gonna stop them?

Using your ult in a duel with him is a terrible idea, and it should never be popped. After it does, it's a complete burst duel, and Graves has got far more of that. If you're gonna win a duel against Graves, you're not gonna use your ult.

If you don't have more than 3 marks by mid game then you must not be very successful at Kindred. Either that, or marks are a lot harder to get in whatever your elo is because Fiora's dont heavily over extend without vision.

Graves doesn't fall-off. His kit is made to succeed more in ganks once he hits lv6, and if you haven't gotten any jumps on him then you've wasted your advantage and therefore deserve to lose. Graves is really good at snowballing games due to the ease of that dynamic, and both Kindred and Graves do the same job of ganking lanes.

I never thought of it that way, to be honest. A Graves's early ganks with Red buff aren't particularly bad, but I guess the reload function hits his ganking a lot more early game.

The hell? I hope you're trolling. In case you aren't, a WW is completely sustained damage, aka DPS. Your entire goal is to outlast their HP and function as an initiating tank that can take a ton of punishment.

Have you played against Warwick? The first thing you feel is his 200 damage Q at lvl 5. That's burst, right there. It does kinda fall off, late game it only does about 300 damage, not usually enough to kill you. Late game, he's also much more auto attack reliant, but early game, his Q is the majority of his damage and at least half of it.

A burst champion has a kit designed to burst, not possessing bursting components that are reliant on base damage in the early game. A Graves will still burst in teamfights, a Zac will not unless very ahead. Your game knowledge is really poor if you don't know what I mean when I say burst champion. 100-0 or at the very least most of the opponent's HP within a small window.

Ah, but you see, a burst meta does not mean all the champions are burst champions. It simply means that everyone is doing burst, rather, all the meta champions. There's a reason why all the strong champions are burst based.

By burst, I mean doing the majority of your damage over a short period of time. Riven is a burst champion because her damage is separated into multiple burst combos (if you're tanky). Xin is a DPS champion, because although he may do 100% of your health in a short amount of time if you're squishy, his damage is mostly loaded into auto attacking over and over again.

SirLapse2 votes

{quoted}

And how the hell does early game have anything to do with how he scales?

Because you're both junglers. How either of you secures a lead is crucial to determining how you scale. If he's dead then he can't farm but you can. Vice versa. He needs items (not to mention his ultimate) in order to burst you but your DPS not only starts out higher but consistently will remain higher if you actually use your advantage.

Assassins, divers, and marksmen junglers only really differentiate once they get out of laning phase. Assassins fuck marksman - Kindred's a marksman, Graves is an assasin.

Syndra would be an assassin by that logic and she obviously isn't. She's a burst mage. The differentiation is in their kits and the jobs they're meant to fulfill. Assassins kill people caught out, divers tend to be initiators, and marksmen have classifications between AD caster and auto-attacker. Graves is an AD caster, and Kindred also is but has AA synergy on her W/E.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Kindred does not scale well with gold - the only stats worth buying on her are attack speed, armor pen, and defensive stats. Gold rarely supplies those effectively.

I think you need to look up what scaling means. You can't honestly believe that a 0 gold Kindred is no different than a Bloodrazor 4% HP on-hit + Runaan's DPS increase and Black Cleaver 30% armor shred + AD/HP/CDR. Don't make statements like that if you don't want to look like a fool. AD/AP isn't everything there is to scaling.

Like I said, Kindred wins early game and is heavily outclassed come mid game.

Snowballed junglers don't lose mid-game unless you've allowed the opponent to recover that much, meaning you're not that good of a jungler. I've never been outclassed by mid-game by people who I've already set behind.

But it doesn't - if mages have been complaining about getting oneshot when they have Zhonyas, how is a measly Ninja Tabi gonna stop them?

Because a snowballed jungler is going to not care about your stats as much. You're paying too much attention to the complaints and not the actual way it happens in the game. Don't be a low elo sheep.

Using your ult in a duel with him is a terrible idea, and it should never be popped. After it does, it's a complete burst duel, and Graves has got far more of that. If you're gonna win a duel against Graves, you're not gonna use your ult.

You don't need to if he's not going to be able to kill you, and if you're ahead then it's not likely in the first place. But if you do need it, then you use it. Common sense.

If you don't have more than 3 marks by mid game then you must not be very successful at Kindred. Either that, or marks are a lot harder to get in whatever your elo is because Fiora's dont heavily over extend without vision.

You don't need marks to win a game. They're nice to have sure, but they're not 100% necessary if the jungler is 0/3 and you're constantly counter-ganking/counter-jungling him. Experienced Kindred players know this already and just capitalize on what plays they can do. You can't mark the same easy target twice in a row after all. It's a common misconception I see on this forum posted by people like you who do not study/play Kindred but want to make claims after 1-2 games.

Have you played against Warwick? The first thing you feel is his 200 damage Q at lvl 5. That's burst, right there. It does kinda fall off, late game it only does about 300 damage, not usually enough to kill you. Late game, he's also much more auto attack reliant, but early game, his Q is the majority of his damage and at least half of it.

200 base damage isn't that high when it's his only damage spell. Especially when you're usually not going to be building items that add to its inherent scaling unlike assassins who benefit from AD.

Ah, but you see, a burst meta does not mean all the champions are burst champions. It simply means that everyone is doing burst, rather, all the meta champions. There's a reason why all the strong champions are burst based.

Burst is strong right now but you over-generalized and made ignorant claims about who bursts due to it.

By burst, I mean doing the majority of your damage over a short period of time. Riven is a burst champion because her damage is separated into multiple burst combos (if you're tanky). Xin is a DPS champion, because although he may do 100% of your health in a short amount of time if you're squishy, his damage is mostly loaded into auto attacking over and over again.

You've got the definition pretty much correct, but the flaw in your logic comes from thinking that a spellcast = burst and AAs = DPS. DPS is what we use to gauge sustained damage, and it's slang. The true meaning of DPS is damage per second, which applies to any damage. Burst = high initial DPS, sustained damage (what we call DPS) = constant damage numbers. Every champion has a DPS limit and it's especially evident in the early game. Involve what I said about Kindred and Graves, and Kindred's DPS limit is way higher than Graves even if she can't copy his burst. High initial DPS has to be enough to kill or nearly kill the opponent for it to be called burst, otherwise it's just high initial DPS.

Asayake 5150glow3 votes

{quoted}

Because you're both junglers. How either of you secures a lead is crucial to determining how you scale. If he's dead then he can't farm but you can. Vice versa. He needs items (not to mention his ultimate) in order to burst you but your DPS not only starts out higher but consistently will remain higher if you actually use your advantage.

That all relies on getting an advantage in the first place. If you do that, you win.

Syndra would be an assassin by that logic and she obviously isn't. She's a burst mage. The differentiation is in their kits and the jobs they're meant to fulfill. Assassins kill people caught out, divers tend to be initiators, and marksmen have classifications between AD caster and auto-attacker. Graves is an AD caster, and Kindred also is but has AA synergy on her W/E.

Isn't... that... what... I... said?

Graves is an Assassin, actually. Most AD casters are.

I think you need to look up what scaling means. You can't honestly believe that a 0 gold Kindred is no different than a Bloodrazor 4% HP on-hit + Runaan's DPS increase and Black Cleaver 30% armor shred + AD/HP/CDR. Don't make statements like that if you don't want to look like a fool. AD/AP isn't everything there is to scaling.

Bloodrazor and Runaans are cheap - I personally don't even buy Cleaver. It's no lie that most of Kindred's damage comes from her passive.

You don't need to if he's not going to be able to kill you, and if you're ahead then it's not likely in the first place. But if you do need it, then you use it. Common sense.

If you do need it, it won't help you. That's what I'm saying.

You don't need marks to win a game. They're nice to have sure, but they're not 100% necessary if the jungler is 0/3 and you're constantly counter-ganking/counter-jungling him. Experienced Kindred players know this already and just capitalize on what plays they can do. You can't mark the same easy target twice in a row after all. It's a common misconception I see on this forum posted by people like you who do not study/play Kindred but want to make claims after 1-2 games.

Of course not, you don't need damage to win a game, you can win off better rotations and decisions. However, Kindred's damage come from her marks, and she doesn't do damage without them.

200 base damage isn't that high when it's his only damage spell. Especially when you're usually not going to be building items that add to its inherent scaling unlike assassins who benefit from AD.

It is level 5. And I'm saying it actually does over 200 damage, not that it's base damage is 200.

Burst is strong right now but you over-generalized and made ignorant claims about who bursts due to it.

Everyone bursts. Lethality MF, Jhin, and Varus do. Burst mages do. Even DPS mages are doing burst. Fighters do burst. Tanks do burst. Those who can't aren't meta.

You've got the definition pretty much correct, but the flaw in your logic comes from thinking that a spellcast = burst and AAs = DPS. DPS is what we use to gauge sustained damage, and it's slang. The true meaning of DPS is damage per second, which applies to any damage. Burst = high initial DPS, sustained damage (what we call DPS) = constant damage numbers. Every champion has a DPS limit and it's especially evident in the early game. Involve what I said about Kindred and Graves, and Kindred's DPS limit is way higher than Graves even if she can't copy his burst. High initial DPS has to be enough to kill or nearly kill the opponent for it to be called burst, otherwise it's just high initial DPS.

It's no lie that having damage centered around autos makes it DPS because it's consistent, unless you happen to be Jhin, and to a lesser extent, Graves (shorter reload).

My definition of burst is having high dps for a short time (half a second), and low dps for the rest of time. Generally, it should add up to a smaller amount than consistent DPS because it's burst and is thus faster. Note: That does not apply to backloaded burst like Camille's second Q.

Early game DPS almost always wins because of that - over a long time, burst has worse overall dps than consistent dps. However, burst outscales DPS once it's able to kill in a single instance of burst, and then falls off as it is no longer able to do.

SirLapse2 votes

{quoted}

That all relies on getting an advantage in the first place. If you do that, you win.

Which Kindred does have in the neutral farm setting. It's not hard to invade Graves or counter-gank him as Kindred. You don't just go into the game without a plan...unless you do?

Isn't... that... what... I... said?

Graves is an Assassin, actually. Most AD casters are.

It's not, because Jhin isn't an assassin and Varus isn't. Darius is an AD caster and oh look, he's also not an assassin. You're over-generalizing too much because you haven't looked at all the game information and memorized it.

Bloodrazor and Runaans are cheap - I personally don't even buy Cleaver. It's no lie that most of Kindred's damage comes from her passive.

It comes from her AA's which her passive assists. Or do you do no damage to the jungle monsters at the start of the game with 0 Marks? I'm seriously concerned over your game logic, because it's immensely flawed.

If you do need it, it won't help you. That's what I'm saying.

If you're out of position and hoping it's going to save you from a deserved death where your team can't help you, then no it will not help you. If you use it properly to avoid dying then you've avoided death. It's not a hard concept to understand but I can understand if you've not succeeded yet at doing this.

Of course not, you don't need damage to win a game, you can win off better rotations and decisions. However, Kindred's damage come from her marks, and she doesn't do damage without them.

Same response as what I mentioned about Bloodrazor/Runaan's.

It is level 5. And I'm saying it actually does over 200 damage, not that it's base damage is 200. It's still his only non-ultimate damage spell.

Everyone bursts. Lethality MF, Jhin, and Varus do. Burst mages do. Even DPS mages are doing burst. Fighters do burst. Tanks do burst. Those who can't aren't meta.

High initial DPS is not burst until it is quite literally most of your HP. Getting poked down to that quantity is not burst. MF's ultimate specifically is DPS so high that it's classified as burst. Special case. DPS mages are Swain, Azir, etc. which you likely wouldn't be able to name.

It's no lie that having damage centered around autos makes it DPS because it's consistent, unless you happen to be Jhin, and to a lesser extent, Graves (shorter reload).

Because your AA damage won't just suddenly get greater the more you do it. Your DPS however will. Jhin is still DPS with a burst oriented 4th shot.

My definition of burst is having high dps for a short time (half a second), and low dps for the rest of time. Generally, it should add up to a smaller amount than consistent DPS because it's burst and is thus faster. Note: That does not apply to backloaded burst like Camille's second Q.

Early game DPS almost always wins because of that - over a long time, burst has worse overall dps than consistent dps. However, burst outscales DPS once it's able to kill in a single instance of burst, and then falls off as it is no longer able to do.

Proper definition but you over-generalized and used it wrong for the cases of champions like WW who only have one damage spell and otherwise relies on AA's. His ultimate is also DPS and not burst. Early game doesn't really have terms like burst applying outside of cases like Anivia, Talon, etc. Marksman don't have that luxury and need to scale before they can achieve burst.

SirLapse2 votes

{quoted}

Bloodrazor and Runaans are cheap - I personally don't even buy Cleaver. It's no lie that most of Kindred's damage comes from her passive.

"I personally don't even buy Cleaver."

You also barely play Kindred. Just realize I've been trolled. All the effort I spent explaining this crap was useless. You played me good.

Asayake 5150glow3 votes

{quoted}

"I personally don't even buy Cleaver."

You also barely play Kindred. Just realize I've been trolled. All the effort I spent explaining this crap was useless. You played me good.

That game was testing out a build. It was bad. Note the Ignite as well.

Anyway, it's not actually about Kindred vs Graves. It's about how well Kindred does against the burst meta, which completely fucks her the same way Graves thrives in it. Graves may not be able to 1v1 Kindred early, but Rengar and Kha'Zix most certainly can (providing there's bushes around for Rengar, which there usually are but not always.).

SirLapse1 votes

{quoted}

That game was testing out a build. It was bad. Note the Ignite as well.

Anyway, it's not actually about Kindred vs Graves. It's about how well Kindred does against the burst meta, which completely fucks her the same way Graves thrives in it. Graves may not be able to 1v1 Kindred early, but Rengar and Kha'Zix most certainly can (providing there's bushes around for Rengar, which there usually are but not always.).

http://champion.gg/champion/Kindred/Jungle?league=silver

Positive winrate vs. Rengar, Kha'Zix and Hecarim who are all considered "better." Balanced winrate with Graves. And this is silver elo where most players in the game are based. In Bronze, only Rengar wins more out of those.

In fact, the only champions that outright smash her are Shaco, Rammus, Warwick and Jax jungle. They're not the definitions of burst, they're all higher sustained DPS. In Shaco's case, his invasions and early game pressure are WAY higher even if he can't copy Kindred's teamfighting ability. Rammus counters AD and Kindred is no exception.

You played one game on Kindred dude, the very least you can do is go check Kindred stats and see how she does from observing high elo ones that AREN'T in the middle of testing things. Kha, Graves, and Rengar all have higher capacity to snowball and just take the game from there without any knowledge burdens. Kindred can do the same thing if you know how to use her, but the point is that people don't. Then they make topics like this that don't tell the full story.

Asayake 5150glow3 votes

{quoted}

http://champion.gg/champion/Kindred/Jungle?league=silver

Positive winrate vs. Rengar, Kha'Zix and Hecarim who are all considered "better." Balanced winrate with Graves. And this is silver elo where most players in the game are based. In Bronze, only Rengar wins more out of those.

In fact, the only champions that outright smash her are Shaco, Rammus, Warwick and Jax jungle. They're not the definitions of burst, they're all higher sustained DPS. In Shaco's case, his invasions and early game pressure are WAY higher even if he can't copy Kindred's teamfighting ability. Rammus counters AD and Kindred is no exception.

You played one game on Kindred dude, the very least you can do is go check Kindred stats and see how she does from observing high elo ones that AREN'T in the middle of testing things. Kha, Graves, and Rengar all have higher capacity to snowball and just take the game from there without any knowledge burdens. Kindred can do the same thing if you know how to use her, but the point is that people don't. Then they make topics like this that don't tell the full story.

I haven't played just 1 game, while I don't play her often, I did get mastery lvl 4 :/

Apparently her winrate and playrate both spiked in 7.5, but I don't think anything changed with her... one would think their winrate would go down due to people trying Warlords Bloodlust.

I mean, Nidalee has a 53% winrate against Graves apparently, but Nidalee is clearly not in the same tier as Graves.

SirLapse1 votes

{quoted}

I haven't played just 1 game, while I don't play her often, I did get mastery lvl 4 :/

Apparently her winrate and playrate both spiked in 7.5, but I don't think anything changed with her... one would think their winrate would go down due to people trying Warlords Bloodlust.

I mean, Nidalee has a 53% winrate against Graves apparently, but Nidalee is clearly not in the same tier as Graves.

Because mastery determines so much in this game.

Even if you could argue that you've played her a lot, your logic isn't sound for the majority of what you've been saying. I'm not trying to sound like an a-hole, but I really can't believe someone who not only makes a generalization of Kindred fresh after a win with her, but also states that a champion doesn't scale well with gold. You can't make me do it.

Mannny2 votes

The real question is why you did not ban Graves??

SirLapse9 votes

{quoted}

The real question is why you did not ban Graves??

He only played Kindred in a normal game, not ranked. He also won that game.

Hexs Fortune2 votes

Kindred's main problem is they don't fit in the meta. Jungles are usually part of the front line. A backline jungler causes alot of problems

PiVoRx2 votes

I picked Yi, and then i prepared myself to be outclassed at everything by anything.

Skaiserus2 votes

I picked Kindred, and I liked iit! The tast of her deathly kiss 🎼🎼

Dracocrash1 votes

because we all know the amazing % hp damage graves deals.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Wizfact EUW,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7MEkEHpW,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-03-19T21:09:25.848+0000)

because we all know the amazing % hp damage graves deals.

It's not like Graves can't take out tanks anyway because he gets to hit them with 4 shots every time and he's also tanky and doesn't have to kite as much, although it's an option.

YoungSirJ0ey1 votes

Graves has plenty of tank killing options. His autos are perfect for applying Black Cleaver and he builds Lethality quite often.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

hugs I know that feeling of having literately everyone in the game (including fucking Soraka, of all people) having every single stat higher than yours. Your health, AD, AS, armor (except for a few cases)…All of it is just pathetic. You have to have tank runes and masteries just to have the same amount of health as just about anyone else. And then everyone with more braincells than the typical bronze 5 Riven is able to stop you from getting the one way to be a viable champion...

Bisaknosp1 votes

i dont like either of them but i would still play kindred because she would be more fun for me and i'm not a sheep xd

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Purple Banana,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7MEkEHpW,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-03-20T01:15:40.971+0000)

i dont like either of them but i would still play kindred because she would be more fun for me and i'm not a sheep xd

I don't even own Graves, and I'm not about to buy him. He's boring af.

llIllIllIllIll1 votes

Garen doesn't have the best ult in the game though


Poll: What was the best season in League of Legends?

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

i still dont understand why they took her essence drain basic attack passive away. plenty of things in lambs kit lack synergy and reasoning while still being powerful, but that essence drain was synergistic, thematic, and the scaling on it was linear and very easy to predict thanks to that. since she's a jungling marksman they could have just made wolf's abilities scale from ability power or criticals like ashe and then lambs powers would have been damage based. it's not like players were compounding lifesteal anymore then than they are now.

Arcus Diabolus1 votes

It blows my mind that threads like this exist, but everyone somehow think this game isn't Stats > Skill.

Supreme Senpai691 votes

Riot needs to just let her target her ult so she has a bit more teamfight presence. I've zero idea why they took that away from her...

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