Unpopular opinion: don't buff tanks

GelsominoKiller·Aug 5, 2018·144 votes·19,587 views

Nerf damage.

My concern is that this never-ending arms race is spiraling League of Legends into a tremendous power creep that is actively killing gameplay fairness and health.

Tanks being strong won't stop a MF with duskblade and stormrazor from one shotting a squishy, but it will only make her unviable. This won't change the fact that that level of broken ass damage is a thing in the game, and it will be bound to resurface in time as meta shifts. Moreover, if the reason behind meta shifting will be further damage buffs to compete with buffed survivability, the problem of MF dealing idiotic amount of damage will only be exacerbated.

In the end, a short and harsh message to the riot balance team: you're blind. You have no direction nor design principles anymore. What you have done in the past two (three) years is just iteratively fixing any issue that arises + big changes for the sake of change. This is pointless and not sustainable.

80 Comments

JbelsAug 5, 201891 votes

I have lived and breathed tanks for a long time, and I want you to know, any sane tank main would agree with this opinion. Tanks didn't need buffs, damage needed nerfs. By buffing tanks like this, they only ensure that they'll be overpowered when the time comes for damage to finally bite the bullet and take some nerfs.

NY64Aug 5, 201812 votes

Perfectly agree with this guy, sure tanks became weaker after the tank class update due to them giving less health but they were still viable. The problem is not tanks being too weak to tank anything, the problem is that there is so much damage, armor penetration, and true damage on AD items that tanks can't do their job. If you think tanks are weak, then why is it that they do part of their job well by tanking so much magic damage but yet they can't do jack crap against AD damage like everyone else?

For me, what I would like to see changed to improve the game for many players is to remove Duskblade, Stormrazor, Conqueror, and IE's true damage. Other changes I would like to see are changing the last whisper items back into bonus armor pen instead of total, lowering the damage some of the rune trees give, and nerfing the best runes that are also responsible for the massive damage in the game such as: Celerity, Transcendence, Scorch, Gathering Storm, Coup De Grace, Last Stand, Alacrity, Sudden Impact, Cheap Shot, Eyeball Collection, Summon Aery, Arcane Comet, Dark Harvest, Predator and of course the infamous Electrocute.

Void KaijuAug 5, 20184 votes

IE's true damage is probably healthier than what it used to have. It just came in at a time where there were already some overtuned sources of true damage in the game so it was an unwelcome change. When tanks were strong before, your ADC could not do ANYTHING to them if they were ahead other than die horribly. (See Malphite every time he wins lane), IE gives them at least a baseline and pulls back on their damage vs squishies with the true damage conversion. I think pulling some of the AD off of crit adc items and making them cheaper has probably done better to balance out their damage than reverting IE would. And I love playing tanks. If you cut all the true damage they will instantly become crushingly powerful in toplane and jungle again. Vayne and Kogmaw and Kaisa would dominate the botlane meta as the only champs who could touch them. Champ diversity would drop very quickly and very far.

Nerfing all the damage sources at the same time would be as harsh a change to the meta as the ADC gutting was. It would be too heavy handed. Right now they are looking at nerfs for a number of he high damage keystones, and i believe the AD on stormrazor was reduced? And they're looking at making duskblade and stormrazor share a unique passive so that they no longer stack. Things are being done. Is it later than they should have been done? Almost certainly. But according to Riot they are on the way.

I do think Tanks need some love but honestly rather than removing true damage, it should be in nerfing Conqueror's true damage (the main culprit that often fucks me as a tank.), and giving them more access to base resists/ability to survive lane in the earlygame that doesn't scale into maddening levels lategame. And maybe reducing their kit damage and moving some of that damage into their items.

TLDR don't remove all sources of true damage because it will help keep tanks in line after they inevitably become meta following incoming nerfs to damage.

Incredibly LucidAug 5, 20182 votes

It's possible a new tank will come out soon as a champ, and the skin cycles for tanks will be released too, it's all apart of the business my dude.

rayzoAug 6, 20181 votes

i'd much rather have a tank meta than this stupid oneshot meta

z63XnLCMwXAug 5, 201826 votes

Can we nerf mobility as well? CD too while we're at it.

wildfox99Aug 5, 20186 votes

how can you nerf the mobility? [sg-lux-2]

you basically have to rework almost every champion

OHminusAug 5, 20185 votes

make the map bigger xd

LimrickAug 5, 20184 votes

Increase cooldowns, increase mana costs, reduce ranges, add more Grounded or Knocked-Down effects.

Moons of JupiterAug 5, 20188 votes

{quoted}

how can you nerf the mobility? [sg-lux-2]

you basically have to rework almost every champion

Just reduce range/speed factors on mobile skills, or remove mobility aspects of skills. Gives the balance team something healthy to do for a while instead of change for the sake of change.

SugeMinPikkAug 5, 201813 votes

"healthy" and "change for the sake of change" are now my 2 favorite buzzwords/buzzphrases

bUtT iTs NoT HeLtHeE

Moons of JupiterAug 5, 201810 votes

{quoted}

"healthy" and "change for the sake of change" are now my 2 favorite buzzwords/buzzphrases

bUtT iTs NoT HeLtHeE

"buzzword" is an interesting way to try to blacklabel/discredit relevant topics. "Health" is a word Riot themselves have used to describe their reasoning for changes to champions. For a design to be healthy or unhealthy is not an alien concept. Examples of changes on behalf of "unhealthy" designs include the failed assassin update and the Urgot update. The term is generally used to refer to things that have serious design flaws that impact the fun and feel of the game negatively, or that have too much impact on the outcome of the game.

"Change for the sake of change" is a community-developed term to describe changes Riot makes just to "spice things up". Some champion updates fall into "change for the sake of change", such as the Singed update. Singed didn't have problems. He had a solid playerbase, and a solid balance philosophy, being a very niche champion with a dedicated circle of mains that was hard to master. His changes were unnessecary because his prior design didn't really warrant them. Thus, his case is "change for the sake of change". Aurelion Sol almost underwent a change for the sake of change update, after recieving an update to remedy unhealthy design. It didn't happen. Many preseason jungle changes are examples of change for the sake of change.

These are not difficult concepts to grasp. If you're attempting to de-legitimize them, maybe you don't understand them, or otherwise have no way to force your opinion on others besides delegitimizing their concerns.

DarukongSrAug 6, 20181 votes

I think you could nerf mobility by introducing more grounding effects that only affect basic abilities rather than flash or ultimates. For instance, Darius could have a grounding effects when he uses crippling strike on an opponent with 4-5 stacks. Other champs could have similar mechanics to make the fights more fair

z63XnLCMwXAug 5, 20187 votes

{quoted}

how can you nerf the mobility? [sg-lux-2]

you basically have to rework almost every champion

Increase CD on all mobility spells. Reduce dash/blink range.

HyquiemAug 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

how can you nerf the mobility? [sg-lux-2]

you basically have to rework almost every champion

Don’t make me give a list.

AnateraAug 5, 201813 votes

Riot can't have that. It's too simple a solution. They've got to reinvent the wheel. Then the car, then the legs, then the ground, then gravity.

BlakiepugAug 5, 201812 votes

The sad thing is that the targeted tank "buffs" are debatable nerfs in most of the cases (i.e. Nautilus, Kench).

SugeMinPikkAug 5, 201812 votes

"Unpopular opinion" (proceeds to state very popular opinion)

never fails

GelsominoKillerAug 5, 20183 votes

Hey, I looked at the feedback regarding tank buffs and it was extremely positive and generally regarded as much needed.

I really don't share this excitement and hence the title.

Athenes LuluAug 5, 201811 votes

Now that's actually an unpopular opinion.

On the other hand, nerfing damage also lets non-tanks build defense and actually make it worth buying again, and I want to see that happen again. You won't get to be tanky from building defense, but actually live more than just 3 seconds longer.

Colton147Aug 5, 20186 votes

I agree; give Ornn is damage and Unstoppable back.

Ornn is greatly struggling and the only things to make him viable again is to give him his damage and Unstoppable back.

saltranAug 5, 20185 votes

I will never non upvote a Colton147 coment

Colton147Aug 5, 201813 votes

{quoted}

I will never non upvote a Colton147 coment

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/random-ness/images/7/78/Tear.gif/revision/latest?cb=20130503204925

EDIT: Wait... Misread.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/c6142fee0f0ce20a143afd7053c1b866/tumblr_nldc75sCXr1sfmnojo1_400.gif

SkorchAug 5, 20183 votes

I disagree, while Assassins are FAR too overloaded right now, that is really the only thing dealing "too much" damage. Everyone else feels better damage wise, ADCs arent 2 shotting people anymore, Bruisers (even though i think Conq is a bit too strong) Exist, Mages... cant exist because of assassins.

However even though bruisers feel okay now, Tanks arent, so a nudge towards tanks isnt all that unfounded.

Teridax68Aug 5, 20182 votes

I can agree with this. I think part of what got us here is that tanks were too durable originally, and from then on we experienced massive increases in damage, alongside power shifts that gave tanks more offense at a cost to their itemized defenses. Making tanks tankier, without lowering their own damage, will only worsen the issues at hand, and make champions without innate anti-tank damage even worse against the class without some sort of hard-counter item. We need damage reductions across the board first, and only afterwards should we see whether tanks need buffs.

What also concerns me is that I think those tank changes are not being implemented in the best way. In my opinion, tank defenses right now are too passive, which is why it's often all too easy to counter them via equally passive effects, and why tanks themselves lack agency when it comes to mitigating specific effects. If tanks are to receive class, wide changes, I think it should involve them having more active defenses, i.e. more powerful actives that allow for clutch-protection and mitigation, rather than large innate health pools or long-lasting damage resistance. In this respect, buffing tanks via stat changes or scaling increases to their long-lasting protections I don't think will help entirely.

GigglesOAug 5, 20182 votes

{quoted}

This is pointless and not sustainable.

I just want tank item buffs, and or damage nerfs... I don't want more tanks to be powercrept.

VoraciousXAug 5, 20182 votes

Damage isn't the issue. The issue is that everyone BUILDS damage, and Riot reinforced that when they reworked GA, Abyssal Scepter, and Banshee's Veil(and to an extent Athene's). We used to build 80 Armor/MR, with a possibly additional 50 MR from Abyssal Scepter on mid laners. What did they do? Made one a pure tank item(because there are so few AP mid laners that have enough range for the radius of the thing), and reduced the defenses while giving more damage on the other two. Even ADCs had 80 Armor/MR from old GA.

RouwhorstAug 5, 20181 votes

Not only that, but if you get one-shot (or killed quick enough) trough your 1 or 2 defensive items, the incentive to building those defensive items becomes lower. You build more damage in order to do more in those few precious seconds you have. which leads to more more damage... less resists ect. Bumping tanks back into the equation might lower damage a bit and nudge the trend backwards, but I am sceptical of that and fear the ones most affected are the bruisers.

Resistance items are still not strong enough and the resistance items build are the ones which delay burst: Steraks, GA, Zhonya's, primarily for their unique passive, not for their stats

VoraciousXAug 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Not only that, but if you get one-shot (or killed quick enough) trough your 1 or 2 defensive items, the incentive to building those defensive items becomes lower. You build more damage in order to do more in those few precious seconds you have. which leads to more more damage... less resists ect. Bumping tanks back into the equation might lower damage a bit and nudge the trend backwards, but I am sceptical of that and fear the ones most affected are the bruisers.

Resistance items are still not strong enough and the resistance items build are the ones which delay burst: Steraks, GA, Zhonya's, primarily for their unique passive, not for their stats

The thing about this is that if CARRY positions went back to building at least ONE FULL DEFENSIVE PURCHASE, all damage would go down in turn as well, because they wouldn't be buying shit that gave them damage in their 6th item slot. This was the turning point for damage creep. The problem is that now carries no longer really have a good FULL DEFENSIVE purchase because Riot decided to give all the good full defensive purchases for carries damage and nerf their defenses instead.

FilDaFunkAug 5, 20182 votes

Popular opinion: This is a popular opinion.

For one thing, boards have been critisizing damage for a few months now.

statelesskillerAug 5, 20182 votes

it isnt even JUST damages, riot is trying to buff the defensive power of individual tanks because they are afraid of bruiser ekko happening again. and i get that. i respect that but come on. buff the god damn tank items. its the only way you are fixing this otherwise you are going to spend forever giving each and every tank base stat buffs and buffs on there defensive steroids,

item 3068 item 3742 item 3143 all have 80% gold effeciency or less. deadmans momentum has a caveat attached where it can reach up to 107% based on how many stacks of momentum you got but im interested in tank stats not damage so we are going to ignore that.

item 3110 is a exception to this, standing at a ASTOUNDING 114% gold efficiency

item 3075 has 74%

item 3025 has 93%

item 3047 84% but HEEEEEY adc's where really gimped by these, and they warped the meta around them so they had to be nerfed right?

item 3109 by yourself 74% near your partner 97%. i actually like this tank item ALOT. it makes sure that no matter what you are at least doing your job by helping to keep someone important alive. the efficiency like this is also fine . .. surprisingly.

item 3190 this is a tank item, that become 100% gold effecient at level 9 on most champs, or while there are at least 2 champs nearby at level 3. otherwise its 76%. this item right here i dont think is ever going to need to be complained about by a tank simply because of how good its active is.

item 3512 i love rot, i love it alot. 91% gold efficient going up to 120% when near a tower

item 3050 102% i think i should note that as well with knights vow these arent "tank" items, but there supposed to be SUPPORT items. however they are items actually worth buying because they are actually efficient and come with power actives if you are a tank.

item 3800 101%

item 3193 this item is interesting as it goes from 60% and then 120% with its passive on.

item 3194 88%

item 3001 87%

item 3111 90%

item 3222 HOLY. THIS ITEM IS DISGUSTING. 130% going to 144 with its mana regen passive. WHAT is this item. bear in mind this is another support item so i dont really count it for tank optimization but i just wanted to point it out. WHY.

item 3065 104% i think im seeing a pattern with tank optimization

item 3083 BOI. okay. 105% effecient. going up to a 1000% effeciency AT LEAST when its regen is on. going up further by 31% for every 100 health you have.

so here we need to ask ourselves. why was armor items gimped so much compared to the MR items? well its because of what top lane is. and the nature of how a tank is supposed to be dealt with. top lane its usually 2 things, tanks. ad bruisers. there are SOME outliers but this is the general rule of thumb with it. so naturally that means that there armor itemization would be targeted far more often then there MR itemization. even further its supposed to be the adc's job to kill a tank and with all the adc's whining about the semi fed maokai jumping on them and beating them to death while they are unable to do anything of course the armor was slowly but surely gutted over time without much focus being placed on the MR items

the solution here is easy. either make armor items cheaper, or buff there tank stats.

Elkington VIAug 6, 20181 votes

Keep on mind that bruisers (juggernauts) build defensive items as well. Deadman's was designed for champs like Olaf, Darius, and Garen for example.

Akali is SO HOTAug 5, 20182 votes

They should remove the bonus stats you get for choosing your rune pages. Don't know what that's in the game.

SpongebobIsLifeAug 5, 20182 votes

to make up for the ap, ad, and health that were given with old runes.

Akali is SO HOTAug 5, 20181 votes

You already get plenty of damage/defense from the runes by themselves. I guess it seemed like a good idea considering they were removing a whole system, but now it's just extra stats that you don't really need.

Votable JesterAug 6, 20181 votes

All the stuff you get from the runes themselves only works against champions. Mages would have much greater difficulty clearing waves if they lost the AP.

They also use it to try to keep champs out of other trees to a degree.

PumpkinsNTheLawnAug 5, 20181 votes

Tank buffs not fair? what a joke,

I LITERALLY STAND WITH MALPHITE IN PRACTICE TOOL VS A CAITLYN BOT FULL BUILD AND SHE WAS ABLE TO TAKE ME DOWN IN A FEW SECONDS WITH FULL TANK BUILD.

thats not okay, not okay at all. sure i can kill her shes a bot but that level of damage on MALPHITE is not showing tanks being overpowered or anything unfair for buffs.

FutureCreatorAug 5, 20184 votes

What part of "nerf damage" wasn't clear? If she deals less damage Malphite will become tankier by proxy.

SohleksAug 6, 20181 votes

Right on my man.

I had to log in to give this upvote 100

SpongebobIsLifeAug 6, 20181 votes

yeah, tanks are just gonna dominate if they both buff tanks and nerf damage all in the same patch.

Votable JesterAug 6, 20181 votes

I don't think you can call it an unpopular opinion when it gets this many upvotes and I guessed what you were going to say first try. People say this same thing every week.

Baka RedAug 6, 20181 votes

Saying "Unpopular opinion" in the title is a trick to make people upvote the thread. I personally dislike that 'trick', no matter how right the person writing it might or might not be.

Votable JesterAug 6, 20181 votes

This one takes it even further though. This is one of the most popular opinions on the boards.

GelsominoKillerAug 6, 20182 votes

You're missing the point in my opinion.

The tank buffs that have been announced have been received with an overwhelmingly positive acclaim, and are generally regarded as much needed.

That's where lies the disconnection.

What I am stating here is not "damage is too high". It is that riot should stop fighting fire with fire or we're all getting burned.

Right now there is a obvious problem with damage being overtuned, but that's just seasonal meta. It could be some other issue. Now, trying to solve any issue by buffing its competition to similar levels of stupidity is only going to add layer on top of layer of long lasting design and balanceability problems.

Votable JesterAug 6, 20181 votes

The only page I've seen with significant potential support for the tank buffs is the page in which they were described by a rioter. Posts by Rioters usually get a lot of upvotes, unless they're something truly horrendous. Even on that page, most of the comments (at least one of which was voted higher than the post itself) were champion mains saying that these buffs would be bad for them. Their priority is that their champions are getting changed and they want to make sure it goes the right way for them.

If you asked them if they'd rather have the buffs or a general decrease to damage, I bet at least 90% would say they'd prefer reducing the overall damage.

I agree with your statements, but they still are undoubtedly popular (including that part about not buffing the competition, people have been complaining about that for a while).

FoxVAug 6, 20181 votes

When the Tank Meta comes i have to pray i can deal any damage before they run into me at mach 5 because screw adc just build bork and armor pen everything will be ok.(I deal no damage with my aa against tank even though i bought full crit armor pen and a bork)

Ash LockheartAug 6, 20181 votes

At least old tank metas lasted longer than 15 mins. If my choices are high damage games going only 15 to maybe 20 mins vs tank meta where team fights last longer, and lane phases last longer then I will choose the tank meta. Tanks right now last maybe 3 secs in team fights because of how much damage can be dished out.

I remember the old days where lane phases lasted at least 20 mins before the real fights, and pushes started. Games lasted 45 to 55 mins, and the thing I miss the most so much is a single player could carry themselves. Didn't matter if you had feeders or troll on your team. back then if a player played smart he or she could carry and end the match.

The game right now is so heavy team based that one person can risk the game. Back then it wasn't like that.

Spirt Gun YuskeAug 6, 20181 votes

If rito nerfs dmg runes , tanks will become automatically op , if they don't then dmg will remain too high and gameplay will be not that fun for non-assasins

DweeeblesAug 6, 20181 votes

Yeah that tank meta a few years ago was 1000% worse that the current meta. I think many tanks are fine, they just aren't a lot of fun so people don't play them unless they are overpowered.