After a near two year break, last season i got back on track in LoL and went from S3 to D5....

GelsominoKiller··73 votes·3,643 views

... and I want to share why i believe I find myself losing interest into the game. If you look up my profile on any site, you'll see that last month or so, I've played mostly ARAM games, one per day... and this comes from somebody that in all those years of following League, couldn't give two shits about ARAM. I realized that this is a symptom of my lack of interest and motivation to queue up for a summoner's rift game. And I believe that this behavior is a common descending parabola for many players about to abandon the game. I also believe that Riot's is well aware of said parabola.

First off, I want to differentiate myself from a consistent number of venting threads that we can find on those boards by saying that I LOVE League of Legends. I want to keep playing this game. I want to buy skins to support Riot whenever I feel right. I really, really don't want to stop playing the game. That's why I'm writing this post, out of love for League of Legends. And while this is meant to be a negative feedback thread, I can't stop myself from briefly praising Riot for the amazing work they have put up recently regarding the out-of-game systems and client. Many awesome features have been introduced in this last years (loot systems, replays, universe page, etc.). The quality of skins and champions has gone through the roof. I'd spend more time complimenting, but I must go straight to the point.

I'd push myself to say that everything outside of the game has made giant steps forward. The problem i have is, however, with the game itself. I consider myself a somewhat mature user of the game: I understand metagames rotate and why Riot had a legitimate interest in keeping them rotating. I like to play certain classes, namely fighters, tanks and some assassins. I like being in the middle of the fray. As a player, I can endure an unfavorable meta for some time, and find a compromise between adapting my champion pool and be faithful to those champions i genuinely enjoy playing. I also understand that some champions will be OP for a while, and some champions UP. I have no problem with that. That said...

**I feel deprived of agency on the course of the game. I feel a slave to my carries. I don't feel self-sufficient as a tank, as a bruiser, as an assassin. **

When I dive in as a bruiser, I don't feel like a threat to the backline, but more of a punching bag buying some time for my team to do something. They don't run from me anymore.

When I dive in as an assassin (after a certain game time), i often see the ADC's health doubling out of shields, and very often i have to face a more reliable burst coming out of the ADC than what I can pull through as an assassin.

When I play a tank I don't actually soak damage.. and this is heartbreaking. It's years I don't feel immortal behind enemy lines because I'm fed. I immobilize a carry and wait my team to kill him. If they fail, I melt and the fight is lost. Just look at this world clip i believe it's explanatory:

https://youtu.be/yLJoPe0YCJg?t=32m45s

Throw everything you have to the enemy carry. If shields make him survive, you lost the fight and might as well retreat. If you succeed into taking him down, you have won the fight. This mindless clash is what league of legends is since 8 months. If you don't believe me, look up competitive games and pay attention on how the teamfight unfolds.

Season 7 has been traumatic for me. I played through this preseason and I realized that the problem isn't in a particularly unfortunate streak of unfavorable metagames, but what Riot's vision of the game has become. Don't get me wrong, even if I'm not a fan of it, I don't mind Riot's stance of pushing for shorter games. If that's the direction they think is more profitable for their game, that's a fair objective i sincerely wish they can pull through. What I despise is, however, how this has been achieved, that is by having extremely heavy snowballing. Compressed game time and importance of snowballing exacerbate the issue I'm about to point out.

Even if they are by far the worst offenders right now, I don't want to focus on ADCs, but talk about that tainted game design that is forcing me out of this game: the CARRY MENTALITY. In my opinion, Riot envisions the game as a hunt for the carry, an endless battle of those damage dealers forced to "DEFEND" themselves from the big bad evil bruisers, assassins and tanks coming at them. Riot puts every effort into packing carry kits with kiting, CC, mobility; similarly supports are packed with extremely impactful itemization and spells to knock off those pesky players. Dying to assassins is unfun, so they're reworked to be gated and delayed. Dying to assassin is unfun, so have Locket, a 500 hp point and click instant shield. The carry survives, he's happy. The support made the carry survive, he's happy. The assassin endures a year of this shit and eventually becomes fed up with the game.

I wish I could go more in detail to point out all the faults in how those class interactions and designs are handled, but I must keep the topic relatively "short".

There is zero interest by Riot's side into making bruisers, tanks or assassins a successful class in the game; all Riot's interest is focused on keeping them in check so they don't disrupt too much the carry classes. A single knockback by Azir ult is often enough to render a juggernaut dead meat, yet Azir has mobility and CC to spare, on top of extreme DPS. For them a single slow can be a hard CC, and yet there is no itemization to help them out. Oddly enough, their itemization is the most expensive in the game, while ADCs, which scale multiplicatively into demigods, abuse the cheapest. This is evident not only in systematic choices like itemization, but also in everyday balance handling: Riot absolutely wrecks and forgets about my boy Nautilus, and leaves twitch unchecked for a year. Bruisers overperforming are promptly nerfed, overtuned carries are handled with extreme caution god forbid they lose too much power. ADCs have an entire RUNE TREE designed SPECIFICALLY for their needs, and yet Riot """FORGETS""" to give 40 bruisers a decent keystone? And when confronted with the issue, what do they do? Try to shove bruisers with tanks, with detriment to both sides (thank god that awful grasp change didn't make it through).

As a result, many players like me feel alienated. I feel like i queue up for a coinflip.. do i have the winning carry? Who gets FB and FTB? My player agency is to make my carry fed, or protect my carry, or buy time for my carry, or immobilize the enemy carry for my carries to kill him. I don't matter in League of Legends. Riot doesn't care about my enjoyment when I play the classes I like to play. I had this feeling since I got back with the game last year, and now I don't think I wish to endure it any longer. The classes I enjoy playing have been neglected for too long, and now i have realized that this is a deliberate design choice, so i have no reason to stay hoping for a more fitting meta.

I don't want to leave the post with the idea that I'm angry and done forever with League. I will gladly come back. Probably I will play games once in a while, and if I will find myself having fun, I will be happy to get back on track. That said, i't's undeniable right now i genuinely don't enjoy the game and (very sadly) won't play very often unless something changes.

TL;DR: I wish Riot had a more fair approach when balancing and designing champions, runes, itemization and class interactions, paying the same attention to the game fantasy, fun and success cases of ALL classes. I don't enjoy League of Legends right now because I don't feel like a protagonist of the match, but more of an enabler of someone else.

62 Comments

Fisher No Chains21 votes

As a LB main and midlane main, I can't agree more, especially on the assassins' thoughts.

With the assassins' reworks, Riot said that they wanted to lower that feast or famine feeling when playing them when in reality, with all those changes they've made during S7/S8, they've just made it worse.

Before season 7, at least mid season, I felt like I could actually carry games playing AP carries or assassins and snowballing even if sidelanes weren't that good. Now everything I play has to be a supportive thing for our botlane. If I play LB, I better roam (especially if my bot is bad) and give my botlane a lead or I lose around minute 25. After that time, I'm a chain bot that can't go through 1k damage shields unless I'm full build and I poke consistently with WQ.

If I play a mage, I'm just a CC machine that needs to stun the enemy team so my ADC can melt them. I don't even try to full-combo burst glass cannon carries because they don't exist and whole ultimates get eaten by shields or bullshit like that. For example, most of the time Syndra isn't able to 100-0 a carry in a fight and it's just better to ult someone and get a free AoE stun.

And I totally agree with everything else. If Riot wants shorter games, good, it's their game and they can do whatever they want with it. But they have chosen the wrong path to achieve their goals, and I think they'll realise it sooner or later.

GelsominoKiller8 votes

If i can leave a strawman argument concerning the state of assassins, we're in a meta where Kha is strong and doesn't evolve his leap.

This says a lot.

Fisher No Chains8 votes

Assassins are in a weird spot right now. AD assassins have a huge ass powerspike, which is Duskblade, but then they're just meh because of shields and tanks+peeling.

AP assassins are super feast or famine and you either snowball forever or you're a glorified Tryndamere, trying to split to be somehow useful. Exceptions are Katarina and Akali but both are busted and are likely to get nerfs/changes.

Don't get me started on assassins and the assassins' rework or I could ruin this beautiful thread.

Vistha D Reptile1 votes

A post saying Katarina deserves nerfs is getting upvoted.

What sorcery is this? I thought Katarina mains made up for the majority of mains here.

Vistha D Reptile1 votes

He's actually doing worse now than he was during the last season.

######_Aaand I just realized I've been mispelling "during" for like a decade. _

Phieldworker12 votes

This is beautiful. I definitely know where you are coming from (I'm not that good of a player) but I understand what you are saying. I main bruisers and there are so may times where you do the initiation/are fed but you are mostly there to soak up damage and widdle down opponents for the carries to finish off. It would be nice if it was balanced where if you get fed, you can carry your carries.

MorganFreemanBot8 votes

I've been playing since The season 2 preseason. My first love was support alistar and protecting the carry; it's still something I enjoy.

Eventually I branched out. I became a fan of some unorthodox picks, and fell in love with being a tank / fighter / bruiser. Things like AP / void spikes Cho, Trundle in general, Sej before she was good, ect.

I have, as OP said, never felt more unimportant as a player before than I currently do. It's as was stated; the entire game basically revolves around the carry. This has always been the case, but I feel it's been kicked into overdrive recently.

Blåbæret7 votes

You can thank Ghostcrawler for the current state of the game. The best part: they're not doing anything about it. Marksmen have been ruining the game for years and nothing's being done.

Athenes Lulu7 votes

As a support main who plays mostly enchanters and often sided with ADCs because of how questionable Boards can be sometimes, I actually agree with most of your points.

If not being able to carry isn't bad enough, then it would be the fact that you would actually lose by playing off-meta. Back in season 4 and 5 where picking enchanters as supports was considered trolling (outside Janna of course), you still had a chance to win and outplay things. Even with the bullshit of season 6 where a lot of stuff got drastic changes, you could still pull off some borderline off-meta strats by stealing dragon as a duo while your jungler and enemy team was busy with toplane. You could even force camps botlane and your toplaner would actually be useful because he has the powers to get first tower for more advantage. What about that one item that everyone said was "useless" on a said champ, but you rushed that every game and won because of that anyways?

Do that from season 7 and on, anything slightly off-meta is considered trolling and you were basically asking to lose even in low elo. Not picking a meta champion is "trolling", because the disadvantages are way too huge. For example, during lethality meta, if you were an ADC that isn't Varus or Jhin, you were asking to lose because you will just be deleted before you can even do anything, and no support can save you from it. Even if you managed to pick them, you still had to follow the strict recipe of meta by building lethality, or else you're going to be almost completely useless. During Ardent Censer meta, picking a said enchanter isn't enough. You have to make sure to rush the same item every game the very first thing or else you were trolling. Even the playstyle has to be strictly meta, if that wasn't enough.

I know I'm just a no-name in gold, I probably just suck shit at the game and that my examples and opinions are so anecdotal that they're probably insignificant, but the main issue still lies: you either play the meta or troll, with nothing in-between. Back to your example, playing bruisers and assassins as carries have been "offmeta", and I've seen people lost because they were trying to do that. To put it short: with how balance works nowadays, there is very little room for "playstyle diversity", especially in low elo. A lot of us know that "anything" works in low elo, but it's not necessarily true anymore, and that's telling us a lot on how much more of a "metagame" League has become.

You know what, I just want to be able to make my own playstyles and builds, and find a way to make it work in gold again. I just want to be able to outsmart people with well-timed plays, instead of building whatever's strictly meta and statcheck enemies to victory. I want to see carries from more than one lane at a time so that everyone, not just the carry, is a threat.

Carniverous2 votes

I feel ya on these strict expectations by players. I feel like they wanna follow LC$ and use the best most optimized styles of play to win. Off meta is bad, to them.

I have always been an Oddball, playing the weirdest fun stuff. Riot talks about wanting to make more plays styles for champs but year after year they make it harder. When someone finds success in places they shouldn't, the nerf bat comes off the shelf. Annie support, Malz support, Zyra nerfed into support roll? weird one.

I used to play... AD bruiser Malphite, then he lost his AD ratio. I used to play... AD Malz, then his Voidlings turned into toilet paper HP swarmlings. I used to play... AP Skarner. The heal was removed but I could still play him top, until he was JUNGLE ONLY. I used to play... Taric top. (Againt stright AD fighters, poor Tyrnd) I used to play... AD Bruiser Blitz (Havent tried it in a while, could still get away with it probably.) I used to play... Tank revive Suicide Karthus. (Heh) I used to play... AD Evelyn. THAT was fun.

I only sometimes get on during the weekends for game modes, and play all the other things I have fun with. Hate me or love me, I still play Assassin Hecrim, and AD Kassadin. (Yeah, Leatality items are OP. I can also play him tanky. )

Also, no I don't go and ruin people's days in ranked matches. Just gamemodes, since nromals is also... Ranked for some people now, lots of expectations.

Weathered5 votes

Oh shit I'm in that ARAM phase...

Divine Thighs4 votes

As a Talon main I agree in a way. The AD assassins kits do no have the dmg to burst down an ADC so we have to rely on busted items like duskblade. Also ADC's are truly the only carry these days so we have to focus them. Back in the day and assassin did not just have one target. They could aim for the mid laner, adc, or any other carry champion that wasn't to tanky. Now it only matters if you kill the ADC so you are forced to target them all game. This is not fun for the assassin or the ADC.

Automated Riven1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Dont Groüp,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5FEgF31e,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-01-25T03:29:53.043+0000)

As a Talon main I agree in a way. The AD assassins kits do no have the dmg to burst down an ADC so we have to rely on busted items like duskblade. Also ADC's are truly the only carry these days so we have to focus them. Back in the day and assassin did not just have one target. They could aim for the mid laner, adc, or any other carry champion that wasn't to tanky. Now it only matters if you kill the ADC so you are forced to target them all game. This is not fun for the assassin or the ADC.

Talon has a shit ton of damage. I wouldn't be complaining about him if I was gonna complain about something.

An Enemy Sutando1 votes

True, he has lots of damage when looking at raw numbers alone, but since his rework, the bulk of his damage's been gated behind a delay, After a certain point in the game, it becomes impossible to do anything to the enemy ADC since their health reaches tank levels of high due to how broken support items are.

Automated Riven1 votes

[{quoted}](name=An Enemy Sutando,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5FEgF31e,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2018-01-25T13:20:13.265+0000)

True, he has lots of damage when looking at raw numbers alone, but since his rework, the bulk of his damage's been gated behind a delay, After a certain point in the game, it becomes impossible to do anything to the enemy ADC since their health reaches tank levels of high due to how broken support items are.

I suppose. But if they lack an enchanter support talon does his job fine.

An Enemy Sutando1 votes

Tank supports also build locket. Trying to deal with an adc with something like an Alistar on the enemy team will just end in you getting cc-locked and then BPD'd to death in less than two seconds by the ADC.

Automated Riven1 votes

[{quoted}](name=An Enemy Sutando,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5FEgF31e,comment-id=000b0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-25T14:13:09.041+0000)

Tank supports also build locket. Trying to deal with an adc with something like an Alistar on the enemy team will just end in you getting cc-locked and then BPD'd to death in less than two seconds by the ADC.

Talon does like 2800 health damn near instantly from stealth. Locket isn't enough unless alistar has like 4k HP and the adc burns heal.

EyasHawk1 votes

Im sorry, what? Talon does nowhere near 2800 health damage even with a duskblade proc. Your comments have been completely disregarding Talon's play style and assume he will just hit 100% of his abilities and a standing still target, and even then the damage would likely not reach 2800.

The way Talon works it is impossible to pop the adc out of stealth if they have sums or a support nearby, why is that? Simply because most of your damage will be sub optimal because of how reliant Talon is on his passive : If you use your R outside of enemy vision you will lose out of the first part of R (so no stacks) and depending on the distance between you and the ADC you will either have to use your Q to close the distance fast enough or will also lose the other half of your R. Assuming you do use your Q though, this will break your invisibility and only give the AD one stack of your passive and then after a short delay a second stack once your R converges towards them, at which point you will need to throw a W and wait for Talon's AA to reset to proc the passive (talon has abysmal attack speed). This gives the ADC and supp roughly 1.5 sec to react and properly defend against him before the passive proc followed by a 3 sec of bleed once it is proced, which is more than enough time for any decent supp to peel for the adc and any fed adc to melt you while life-stealing, or non-fed one with self-peel to simply disengage (since you already used your Q you have no gap closer and with stormraiders no longer being a thing Talon has no way of actually catching up to the adc).

The scenario you mentioned would only be remotely relevant if Talon is building full lethality with a Mortal reminder (no utility whatsoever or Black cleaver) and he somehow managed to get within R distance of the ADC to use the first half of the R which is nigh impossible due to how small the range is (550) and no one is going to let you run towards the adc in a team fight and go unpunished. This is made even worse by the fact that most decent ADCs will build Tabi against a Fed talon which will basically allow them to facetank his burst...

Talon's current winrate is 48-49% depending on the elo for a 1-2% playrate (mostly mains and OTP basically) , if that isnt an indicator of how bad of a spot he is in I dont know what is.

Automated Riven1 votes

{quoted}

Im sorry, what? Talon does nowhere near 2800 health damage even with a duskblade proc. Your comments have been completely disregarding Talon's play style and assume he will just hit 100% of his abilities and a standing still target, and even then the damage would likely not reach 2800.

The way Talon works it is impossible to pop the adc out of stealth if they have sums or a support nearby, why is that? Simply because most of your damage will be sub optimal because of how reliant Talon is on his passive : If you use your R outside of enemy vision you will lose out of the first part of R (so no stacks) and depending on the distance between you and the ADC you will either have to use your Q to close the distance fast enough or will also lose the other half of your R. Assuming you do use your Q though, this will break your invisibility and only give the AD one stack of your passive and then after a short delay a second stack once your R converges towards them, at which point you will need to throw a W and wait for Talon's AA to reset to proc the passive (talon has abysmal attack speed). This gives the ADC and supp roughly 1.5 sec to react and properly defend against him before the passive proc followed by a 3 sec of bleed once it is proced, which is more than enough time for any decent supp to peel for the adc and any fed adc to melt you while life-stealing, or non-fed one with self-peel to simply disengage (since you already used your Q you have no gap closer and with stormraiders no longer being a thing Talon has no way of actually catching up to the adc).

The scenario you mentioned would only be remotely relevant if Talon is building full lethality with a Mortal reminder (no utility whatsoever or Black cleaver) and he somehow managed to get within R distance of the ADC to use the first half of the R which is nigh impossible due to how small the range is (550) and no one is going to let you run towards the adc in a team fight and go unpunished. This is made even worse by the fact that most decent ADCs will build Tabi against a Fed talon which will basically allow them to facetank his burst...

Talon's current winrate is 48-49% depending on the elo for a 1-2% playrate (mostly mains and OTP basically) , if that isnt an indicator of how bad of a spot he is in I dont know what is.

Talon is my second highest played champion in the game. And I have no problems killing the adc instantly from stealth if they don't get shields/heals from a teammate. And I almost always cast r from fog. He combos slower if you use first cast of r for the combo.

EyasHawk1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5FEgF31e,comment-id=000b0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-26T15:50:23.603+0000)

Talon is my second highest played champion in the game. And I have no problems killing the adc instantly from stealth if they don't get shields/heals from a teammate. And I almost always cast r from fog. He combos slower if you use first cast of r for the combo.

That just means they are bad, or that you are over-fed to be honest, and neither of which is an indicator of how good or bad Talon is. What do you mean by he combos slower? The W (In Range) R Q is an instant bleed combo, you can't get any faster than that unless you flower Combo, which is also a 1st cast R combo (W +Q+R mid Q). R out of range Q W is a far slower combo, because you have to wait for W and R to hit then AA, but since Q is an AA reset it mean that talon will AA before R reaches him which will cause you to wait for his next AA to proc passive... Also, I dont think anecdotal evidence is exactly more reliable than stats and the entire TalonMains subReddit...

Automated Riven1 votes

{quoted}

That just means they are bad, or that you are over-fed to be honest, and neither of which is an indicator of how good or bad Talon is. What do you mean by he combos slower? The W (In Range) R Q is an instant bleed combo, you can't get any faster than that unless you flower Combo, which is also a 1st cast R combo (W +Q+R mid Q). R out of range Q W is a far slower combo, because you have to wait for W and R to hit then AA, but since Q is an AA reset it mean that talon will AA before R reaches him which will cause you to wait for his next AA to proc passive... Also, I dont think anecdotal evidence is exactly more reliable than stats and the entire TalonMains subReddit...

Your mostly correct. I typically cast r first and then cast w Q aa for a few reasons. Firstly it recalls r blades faster. If your close enough your aa reset will proc the bleed. (This is rare and it allows the support to react because they see you ult) But typically I don't find mid/late game talon needing the bleed to kill them unless they dodge the recall of rake. Which they are forced to flash typically as you can position yourself in such a way they the recall will hit them.

FilDaFunk3 votes

{quoted}

**I feel deprived of agency on the course of the game. I feel a slave to my carries. I don't feel self-sufficient as a tank, as a bruiser, as an assassin. **

I don't feel self-sufficient as a support.

[sg-soraka]

Omen461 votes

{quoted}

I don't feel self-sufficient as a support.

[sg-soraka]

[slayer-jinx-catface] I don't even mind if you want to feel self-sufficient, if you can well protect yourself, I'm certain you can well protect me. Give me a hug and let me take care of all your worries... the meta allows me to win for you ^w0 item 3072 item 3031 item 3085 item 3508 I'm a death machine for life!

Velasan3 votes

I can't say I'm losing interest in the game... but one thing I definitely agree with is too much focus on the bot lane.

I just played a game yesterday. Goes like this:

  1. Kill my enemy JG at his red...

  2. He invades my blue, we kill him and his mid laner

  3. He tries second invade at my raptors, we kill him and the mid laner again

  4. Gank top get a kill, gank mid get a flash.

So, during this game I haven't been bot because either they are already dead or they have the lane pushed in. I'm 2/2 with assists, top and mid have kills too. At the 14 min mark the enemy bot lane lands up with a lead and even though EVERYONE else on my team is ahead it doesn't matter, because no one can reach their ADC and survive. The support heals them and everyone who tries to get near them gets peeled. Enemy ADC melts everything, we lose. The enemy JG literally did nothing all game and they won anyways.

All that is fine, cause that's just the meta right now, way the game goes and etc. I just think it's weird that everyone else can play well and the bot lane still decides the whole game. I'm still going to play League and I'm still liking the new runes, but it would be nice to have more agency in other roles than bot.

Broken Bandle2 votes

This is exactly how I feel. I put so much time and energy into this game, but every match feels like a coin flip in which I have little say if one of my teammates provides first blood. I'm not sure how to fix it. I want to play pretty badly. But when I log on for my FWB, I find myself in aram so that I can at least blame true RNG for the loss.

NodirjonSattarov2 votes

overused video. what do you expect from a "protect the kog'maw" composition that riot has nerfed kog'maw to keep him in his place. get out of here

Automated Riven2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Kogfather,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5FEgF31e,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-01-25T02:39:45.562+0000)

overused video. what do you expect from a "protect the kog'maw" composition that riot has nerfed kog'maw to keep him in his place. get out of here

That's an example of a protect the kog comp being way the fuck too strong. If you can't catch out shitty positioning from the adc and punish it how the hell are you supposed to beat the comp? C9 deserved to win that fight because they did everything right. WE fucked up massively there and got off Scott from because supports were (and to some extent still are) op as fuck. A protect the kog comp is extremely historically reliant on kog playing on the very back line and having very strict battle lines. (IE having tanks on the front line protecting him and a dedicated support or two helping keep him alive) if you don't play those lines perfect then you lose. Kog was literally in between his team and C9. Fucking wood 9 positioning.

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

I've watched this video many times when NA was crying about the C9 loss. Comments like "C9 did everything right, WE should have lost etc. " make me cringe at how little is understood in the fight. Every champion on WE poured all of their resources into Kog'Maw and it worked. Also, you need to take into account that Mystic is a monster on Kog'Maw and had been doing extremely well the entire season on him and the rest of his team knew what to do as a result of that.

But you really want to know how C9 lost? Sneaky was on a roll with Tristana, winning them 2 games in a row. Then the lost 2 games in a row when Tristana was banned. You lose the game when you don't know how to draft right. WHY DID C9 BAN XAYAH 3 TIMES? Why did they let Mystic pick Kog'Maw 3 times? Why did they give WE Janna 4 times?

"something something something....C9 did everything right" Wrong. There was only a couple abilities used from C9 which were the following (in order)

Sejuani R -> Sejuani W -> Lulu R on Sej -> Ori R + E (?) -> Q from Caitlyn -> heal from Lulu LITERALLY NOTHING ELSE!!!! No taunt from Shen (Shen didn't even AA), Caitlyn didn't auto or use traps to zone, Lulu just ulted Sejuani when she could have polymorphed Gragas from using his R

WE ability Sequence:

Janna shield on Kog'Maw right before Sej R -> Galio R on Kog'Maw for damage reduction (about 33% damage reduction) -> Kog'Maw pops Shield -> Janna R -> Locket from Galio -> Grag body slams + R the 3 in the backline spreading them apart and forcing Sej back into the team fight.

"something something C9 did everything right" COMPLETELY WRONG. WE did everything correctly + more thats why they came out on top.

Automated Riven1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Kogfather,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5FEgF31e,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2018-01-25T18:25:54.718+0000)

I've watched this video many times when NA was crying about the C9 loss. Comments like "C9 did everything right, WE should have lost etc. " make me cringe at how little is understood in the fight. Every champion on WE poured all of their resources into Kog'Maw and it worked. Also, you need to take into account that Mystic is a monster on Kog'Maw and had been doing extremely well the entire season on him and the rest of his team knew what to do as a result of that.

But you really want to know how C9 lost? Sneaky was on a roll with Tristana, winning them 2 games in a row. Then the lost 2 games in a row when Tristana was banned. You lose the game when you don't know how to draft right. WHY DID C9 BAN XAYAH 3 TIMES? Why did they let Mystic pick Kog'Maw 3 times? Why did they give WE Janna 4 times?

"something something something....C9 did everything right" Wrong. There was only a couple abilities used from C9 which were the following (in order)

Sejuani R -> Sejuani W -> Lulu R on Sej -> Ori R + E (?) -> Q from Caitlyn -> heal from Lulu LITERALLY NOTHING ELSE!!!! No taunt from Shen (Shen didn't even AA), Caitlyn didn't auto or use traps to zone, Lulu just ulted Sejuani when she could have polymorphed Gragas from using his R

WE ability Sequence:

Janna shield on Kog'Maw right before Sej R -> Galio R on Kog'Maw for damage reduction (about 33% damage reduction) -> Kog'Maw pops Shield -> Janna R -> Locket from Galio -> Grag body slams + R the 3 in the backline spreading them apart and forcing Sej back into the team fight.

"something something C9 did everything right" COMPLETELY WRONG. WE did everything correctly + more thats why they came out on top.

So your saying that when the adc is caught out of position then it should require multiple ultimates to kill them? If C9 had been forced to blow 4 ulted and Shen flash in order to kill the out of position adc then I'm sorry. I'm completely right that there were balance issues here. Adc's should die easilly and have to position well. Not be pseudo tanks which require every resource to kill.

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

NOT multiple ultimates, just contribution from other members of the team. He wasn't really out of position.

WE used everything to protect Kog'Maw, why shouldn't C9?

Automated Riven1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Kogfather,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5FEgF31e,comment-id=00090000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-25T19:03:59.029+0000)

NOT multiple ultimates, just contribution from other members of the team. He wasn't really out of position.

WE used everything to protect Kog'Maw, why shouldn't C9?

They did get contributions from the other team. He literally dropped to like 10% health and almost instantly regened to full. Thats what was so broken.

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

It was essentially only 2 people that committed to that team fight, Sej and Ori. If the others fully committed then it would have been successful. He didn't drop to 10% you need to watch the video again.

Omen461 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5FEgF31e,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-25T18:35:00.940+0000)

So your saying that when the adc is caught out of position then it should require multiple ultimates to kill them? If C9 had been forced to blow 4 ulted and Shen flash in order to kill the out of position adc then I'm sorry. I'm completely right that there were balance issues here. Adc's should die easilly and have to position well. Not be pseudo tanks which require every resource to kill.

DAMN STRAIGHT! if your squishy stay squishy! [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

HercaZ2 votes

Well there are some points we could agree on but also there are some points we cant agree... For example, Illaoi Ornn Maokai - these are pretty OP at the moment... You cant really 1v1 any of these champs unless you are slightly fed ADC..
Yasuo - still probably the most OP champ at he moment, because of the carry like abilities - he can carry the game easy. He has a lot of CC , damage, defencive wall and ability to move fast - catch up to his targets..

So in my opinion the problems evolve around certain number and certain champions who at the moment are OP, and that most of the times involves newer champions.

This particular change they implemented now ruined a very huge part of the game play, supporting lost its cool at them moment..

Infernal Ironic4 votes

{quoted}

Well there are some points we could agree on but also there are some points we cant agree... For example, Illaoi Ornn Maokai - these are pretty OP at the moment... You cant really 1v1 any of these champs unless you are slightly fed ADC..

This are OP compared to bruiser influence. Any tank is garbage compared to carry class

Yasuo - still probably the most OP champ at he moment, because of the carry like abilities - he can carry the game easy. He has a lot of CC , damage, defencive wall and ability to move fast - catch up to his targets..

Why is yasuo even mentioned. He is neither a bruiser, neither tank. He used to be classified as melee ADC

So in my opinion the problems evolve around certain number and certain champions who at the moment are OP, and that most of the times involves newer champions.

Incorrect. The problem is much deeper then gut lulu janan twitch xayah kog vayne tristana etc. Infact there are multiples of problems withing problems multiplied by problems

This particular change they implemented now ruined a very huge part of the game play, supporting lost its cool at them moment..

They are just overvaluing sighstone. Sighstone loses lots of value compared to 5vs5 tournaments

Ifneth2 votes

OP, the frustrations you have described are unreasonable, and furthermore, every one of them corresponds to one unhealthy playstyle or another.

Your arguments all come back to teamfighting. The obvious points are obvious but bear mention for clarity. Teamfights are between teams: each champion must do what their team needs them to do. Some champion classes are not designed for teamfighting but rather entirely different purposes.

The classes of melee champions that build damage are in this category. Juggernauts, divers, skirmishers, and assassins are all designed to snowball their strong laning into early objectives and such a lead that more than one enemy champion must answer their splitpush, granting their own team a numbers advantage on the other side of the map. While all these champions can teamfight, tanks just do it better.

The ability to reliably dive the backline without a large lead or team follow-up is unhealthy. Not even Vanguards, tanks designed to close with the enemy and get past their frontline, should be able to do it. It leaves tanks and supports helpless to defend their carries, who can only run and hope not to be caught. The only person having fun is the one diving.

As for the “carry mentality,” that’s part and parcel to the game. If a team picks two tanks and an enchanter, then it can create a safe enough backline to pick two fragile but powerful carries. If that team has not fallen too far behind after laning against, say, a juggernaut top and an assassin mid while an enemy diver roamed the jungle, then its players have proven better and deserve a superior teamfight to close the game.

While non-tank top-laners do need a rune designed for them in order to be the stronger lane pick, and although assassins would enjoy less-frustrating counter-mechanics, your idea of how the category of champions you described should work would make everyone except their players miserable. Let’s not do that.

GelsominoKiller2 votes

I am sorry to be rude, but your critics are based on assumptions that are simply wrong and fake.

The classes of melee champions that build damage are in this category. Juggernauts, divers, skirmishers, and assassins are all designed to snowball their strong laning into early objectives and such a lead that more than one enemy champion must answer their splitpush, granting their own team a numbers advantage on the other side of the map. While all these champions can teamfight, tanks just do it better.

I honestly don't know from where do you get that information. Where is it written that Juggernauts, divers, skirmishers and assassin are early game champions meant to have no team fight presence and lategame??? If anything, your thinking that this belief is the intended way this game should play out is the epitome of a big-as-a-barn design problem that Riot's carry mentality refuses to address.

I don't know if you're new to this game but I can assure you that in the past years those classes were precious members to have in a team fight, and the game worked out fine. As an example I add that the common picks that were used to counter a "protect the kog" comp in ~season 4 were a combination of a strong midlane assassin and some beefy diver. Right now picking Zed into a Lulu-Kog is borderline trolling: this means that assassins and divers have stopped to be that huge backline damage threat they used to be, and are thus relegated to be that early game snowball means to their carries that you think they're intended to be.

Ifneth1 votes

{quoted}

I am sorry to be rude, but your critics are based on assumptions that are simply wrong and fake.

I honestly don't know from where do you get that information. Where is it written that Juggernauts, divers, skirmishers and assassin are early game champions meant to have no team fight presence and lategame??? If anything, your thinking that this belief is the intended way this game should play out is the epitome of a big-as-a-barn design problem that Riot's carry mentality refuses to address.

I don't know if you're new to this game but I can assure you that in the past years those classes were precious members to have in a team fight, and the game worked out fine. As an example I add that the common picks that were used to counter a "protect the kog" comp in ~season 4 were a combination of a strong midlane assassin and some beefy diver. Right now picking Zed into a Lulu-Kog is borderline trolling: this means that assassins and divers have stopped to be that huge backline damage threat they used to be, and are thus relegated to be that early game snowball means to their carries that you think they're intended to be.

I never said that damage dealing melees are meant to have no teamfighting presence. I said that they are meant to be better in lane and while splitpushing, but that tanks are meant to be better teamfighters. Read my post again if you don’t believe me, and do not put words in my mouth.

I was not around in Season 4 and have no idea how professional teams countered a protect-the-kog’maw comp. If I may guess, then they tried to make the midlane assassin snowball, used the diver to disrupt, and tried to win the game before the enemy team scaled. Otherwise I can’t really discuss this.

The reason assassins have to fall-off during the late game is that they would otherwise be overpowered. Rather than scaling, they snowball, becoming able to almost solo-carry the game. If they hit six items and stayed as strong as, say, a mage into the late game, then they could lose only by throwing once even slightly ahead. Again, the only person having fun would be the assassin.

Melee damage dealers are finally healthy now. They need to use their strong laning phase to get ahead and then roam to snowball themselves and their team before the enemy can scale and group. Skirmishers, divers, and juggernauts need to win their lane and then splitpush to take objectives or create numbers advantages.

Besteal2 votes

tbh, the previous adc meta was far less cancerous than the current one. The freaking Ardent Meta was less cancer than this. At least all of that was sustain damage. The popular adcs were Trist and Twitch. Those are both sustain damage champs, far less burst than someone like Vayne. Trist does have burst, but it is delayed, and twitch's only "Burst" is surprising you out of his stealth. That was more healthy than the current meta. The adc bursts faster and harder than assassin and then gets 3k in shields is certainly unhealthy. But this is just another phase. Riot will fix it eventually, and then we'll move on to the next completely unexpectedly unhealthy meta which will make us all forget about this. So persevere, people, and eventually, we'll pull through.

Kyunsei2 votes

ADC have too much agency to how the game will unfold.

FunkyMonkey36962 votes

Thank you. You described exactly how I feel, more eloquently than I could ever do. It frustrates me how the game is so reliant on having a decent adc. I have lost so many games where the 4 other players on the team are pwnsome but our adc ducks compared to theirs and it's gg. We can't do crap

Longtowel1 votes

I’d like to think of it as this.

LoL is a team game, a competitive sport or esport that involves five people working together to win the game over another five man team.

In that sense it’s quite like basketball or soccer or many other team sports.

The problem is that in those sports, you can’t just rock up through a system called soloQ and play, like we do in league. In these sports, if you are competing, even at a very low level, such as a high school weekly game (bronze), you still train during the week with your team, and play your position.

There will be players on your team that are a better shot, or can do a nice lay up, and so you creat opportunities for them to score and win the game. In that sense, they are the adc, and you are the top lane tank.

I would wager that league would be much more fun if you put together a small band of friends and play as a team, working on your strategies, communicating and helping each other out, everyone doing their bit to make the finish line, rather than being in this mind set of ‘how can I carry? How can I influence the game?’ Which is common and often necessary in soloQ.

So that what I think. Not everyone can be the protagonist in every game. Sometimes you have to be the enabler, and share the glory of victory that you helped to earn. Besides, a lot of the times now games don’t go that long, they often end before ADCs become the centre of everything.

Vectros1 votes

I have two issues with this.

First, regarding being the protagonist. Anyone on the team can score, even if they aren't the best. They have the capability to be the MvP regardless of position-though some positions might receive it more, it's a game in which a defender is 100% just as important as your forward. Hell, that's how some teams win-their offense sucks, but their defense is so hard core it doesn't matter.

In League terms, it'd be like if after halftime, forwards were given points for getting the ball across the field-not even in the goal. No one else is allowed to do it-but you can "assist" by passing to one. This is maybe a bit over the top, but it's how it feels in League.

Second, as far as games not going long...this is the issue. Even with shorter games, ADC's are still getting strong fast enough to become a huge threat. Their itemization is inexpensive and thus they hit that point faster, so even with quick games they still end up ruling the game.

Longtowel1 votes

Hmm, I feel you.

I suppose you could try to assess your importance in the team with different criteria, since it’s easily to feel powerful as the ADC as you are killing everyone.

But say for example, you are the support and you managed to peel off 2 assassins and kept your adc alive long enough, or if you are the tank and you had a perfect five man initiate - that’s equally as important!

Maybe think of ADCs not as another player perhaps but a missile launching pad. It takes time to build, the enemy wants to bomb it, and you need to keep it safe so that it can do it’s job and explode your enemies.

That’s just me. I’ve never felt irrelevant or less important than ADCs in any game, since I judge my performance based on the expectations of my role, and not how much I’m killing the enemy alone.

Vectros1 votes

Well, it definitely can feel good when you pull those moments off-but they tend to get outshined by the ADC.

I get your analogy, but it only reinforces my feeling; the missile is the most important part. Without it, you fall apart and fail, and the enemy blows you up. EVERYTHING is in regards to the missile-the war is a stalemate until one side bombs the other. Ground troops cannot get through on their own. Only the missile can carry out the mission.

This actually feels like a realistic assessment of how League plays out most of the time. It only gets worse when we look at a fed player. Sure, a fed Assassin can be scary-he'll pop your ADC before you can blink-but he doesn't get DPS, so he'll fall off. A fed tank is impossible to 1 vs 1-but then his team isn't doing a whole lot of damage, and you could potentially focus him down if he pulls a bad initiate.

A fed ADC? I feel like I should just give up. Even without a support to back him, he'll 1 vs 1 the majority of the cast, 2 vs 1 in many cases.. Throw in a supp, and you've got no chance.

Longtowel1 votes

Yeah well, I suppose not much could be done about that.

If you nerf the missle and it can't blow things up anymore then nobody would care about the missles.

ADCs are only ADCs because of their high influence. Taking that away from them takes away the only thing that defines them.

Vectros1 votes

ADC's are ADC's (or at least supposed to be) because they can deal consistent damage in a fight to kill the front line.

They should not be shredding the entire enemy team in 3 seconds flat. Much how assassins and some mages are meant to kill squishies, juggernauts are meant to waddle in the thick of it and deal lots of damage-while taking quite a bit-at the cost of mobility/utility, and tanks are meant to protect/initiate/be a protective wall, ADC's should be a damage threat-but not the sole purpose of the team.

Think of it this way. What roles can you think of that have been played since the games iteration in greater than 99% of games?

The only answer is ADC's, and this is an issue. No other role gets the privilege of being REQUIRED. Yeah, it's' nice to have a tank or two, and in some metas they thrive-but they aren't always around. There have been times where they were 100% useless and picked rarely, if at all. The same can be said for any other class except ADC's. We had a brief stint a year ago where they were "trash"-except even in this moment of weakness, if you didn't grab Ziggs, people were still opting for ADC's. The combination of safe farming/poke, damage, and often times mobility meant that even if Ziggs could wreck them in lane, it was still worth taking one. They didn't get dropped off or anything-which is exactly what WOULD have happened to any other role in a similar situation.

You talk as if ADC's have to be a missile. Why can't they be the Sniper, while the tank is the Support (machine gun), Bruisers use assault rifles, etc. and together, they equally take down the enemy, instead of "we MUST use the ADC to win. No ADC on our team=loss" that this game has had for ages? I feel as though your statement there really points out the problem of league-the value of an ADC is too damned high. There is absolutely no reason any one role should overall be considered more valuable than all the others, yet this is exactly what ADC's are.

Longtowel1 votes

I think I understand your position a little better now.

I cerntainly get why you would feel like ADCs are Required and that no other class in the game are as important.

What I'd like to think though, is that the thing that is absolutely required is very high sustained damage that is enough to take out an entire team. Of course ADCs are not the only role associated with the capacity to do it, and mind you I mean associated, because for example a full-build crit Yi or a full-build Azir could dish out similarly devastating damage.

But its just that the way these champions work meant they cannot take up the responsibility of being the core damage dealer. So the evolution of the game has dictated that we needed something that could reliably deal tonnes of damage and that damage is self-contained in a way (so Azir's damage would be too conditional, since he needs to be where he put his soldiers at). That turned into the Marksman class, champions that fulfill that role better than anyone else.

In terms of pure damage capacity, I think a full-crit Yi would be similar to a full build Vayne.

Anyway, the game has been around for too long and the model of gameplay is quite developed that it is very hard to try to change the core design of the game, because that would mean they need to change everything.

But its certainly not impossible, if you look at a game like Dota, where carries comes in all shapes and forms. But Dota is, however, very different in how it plays despite being the game that spawned LoL in the first place.

At the end of the day, it is the 'Carry' in the ADC that matters. If the Marksman can't carry, they are not the ADC. If the midlane is so strong, they are the APC instead. This is why Riot never explicitly called Marksman ADCs, because that is technically not their categorization, it just tends to wind up that way.

Perhaps with some changes, some of the mages could potentially fill the late game hypercarry role? For example Taliyah, who has a decent range spammable spell that deals consistently high damage? Obviously right now that's not how she is tuned, but her concept could potentially work towards that APC role.

Ziggs is another one, with his spammable and high damage capacity.

So I don't think its the problem about ADC's design in general, instead, they are the 'necessary evil' if you will, and filled the Carry role which brings with them a lot of significance and of course, frustration.

I wouldn't mind to see Riot implement something or tune other champions to be Carries, but I understand just how difficult that would be.

Vectros1 votes

I mean, obviously we can't have damage so low that no one can kill each other, that'd be obsurd.

I'm fine with ADC's having sustained damage-enough to be the best at killing the tanks. I'm not ok with A) it feels like burst damage to a squishy and B) They tend to reach this insane level rather quickly-and safely to boot. Compared to many melee champs, ADC's have a much safer lane phase. So they're safer+stronger late game=why even bother with using these melee champs? This doesn't always happen-there are some melee's that can stomp ADC's, but as a general rule, the ADC will outpoke and out farm the melee. Hence why some ADC's, such as Vayne and Quinn, are now top lane, because they can. Hell, jungle and mid aren't safe-that's when you know you have a problem. A class can literally go to any lane and feel at home. Can't say that about anyone else.

And yes, some non-adc's can out damage an adc-but you don't take them due to risk factor. This doesn't apply as much to low levels, but there's a reason that the likes of Master Yi and Yasuo don't see high level play; the instant they are in range to start doing damage, they get wrecked.

I agree the game has been out for a while, and I'm not necessarily asking for ADC's to hit like a wet noodle. Rather, they need to take longer to reach that point/not be so safe in the early game. Make it somewhat of a risk to play ADC's, so we can actually see Ziggs or other champs bottom to attempt to shut down the ADC. I wouldn't expect it to work every time-but it should be a viable pick, much how literally every other class can be shut down/countered during laning by another role.

Haven't actually played Dota, though from what I've heard, melee ADC's are actually a thing.

Wouldn't disagree, but the ADC doesn't need to deal nearly as much damage as it does so quickly.

Basically, they need to either deal less damage late, or be more vulnerable and do less damage early. I don't care how they do it. Also, Your'e wrong on them never calling them ADC's, that used to be their official term until maybe 3-4 years ago, when Marksman became the official title. Prior to that, ADC was the official term.

I'd love to see APC's actually be a thing. It has happened from time to time, like Ryze used to do it.

I'd also love to see melee bruisers become late game carries. As is stands, they not only have the most expensive itemization, but often struggle in laning vs other classes. Not always, but it is an issue. To me it'd make sense for them to actually carry late game, at the expense of dangerous early game-and it'd be easier to get focused.

Longtowel1 votes

ADCs are hard to play, that's for sure.

From my experience playing all the roles, ADC is by far the most difficult mechanically, it requires you to constantly maintain a high APM while keeping in mind all of the other aspects of the game like vision, positioning and target priority. In that sense I feel like they are already a risk.

Right now, I do think that the early safety of the ADCs might be a bit much at higher elos, since people understand trading better and can keep themselves safer. In lower elos its not much of an issue I think, since people make mistakes so often and do dumb stuff so even the slightly superior ADC will be able to get a few kills off of the other one (of course matchup matters).

I think it would be healthy to nerf fleet footwork a little bit, and give ADCs more incentive to use lethal tempo and Press the Attack, which I think are such cool rune choices, and would be so fun to play with more.

I used to love taking lethal tempo on say Vayne or Varus or Kog'maw, and just have a ridiculous attack speed at an early level, and out duel people with that surprise damage. But right now its just not as viable, not because people say it is, but from my own experience as well. In lane especially, if I don't take fleet footwork, my health is just always lower than the enemy laner since I don't get that sustain, and they are generally smart enough to not get into a drawnout fight with me if they see my lethal tempo up.

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