Boards›Gameplay

@Riot Please give us an explanation on this worrisome statement.

GelsominoKiller··261 votes·10,409 views
Balance Team Q+A: Ask Us Anything! [COMPLETE]

Context:

[{quoted}](name=Riot Time Wizard,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=vWEoZ6X0,comment-id=00440000,timestamp=2015-10-16T20:33:03.135+0000) We tend to let champions like Sejuani [who thrived close to a 60% win rate for a while], level off after we nerf them in some way. We're not intending to leave them to die and be forgotten, but in the interest of keeping the live environment fresh, we don't want to rebound and throw more buffs at her, since she only just stopped being picked so much. She'll be back -- we're just trying to let other champions have some time in the spotlight!

I did just read this statement from Riot Time Wizard, and i'm a bit upset right now. I'd really like some Red to better explain this misunderstanding.

You're telling me that you're purposely keeping Sejuani in a weak state for an undetermined period of time because she has been popular and strong for a couple of patches?

(You know who has been popular and strong for like, 3 seasons? Lee Sin. And when he fell out of all-dominant-pick/ban-1#-king-of-the-jungle spot because of natural meta shift, you buffed him in an adverse meta (i remember you saying that was bad a thing, when you were talking about lissandra a while back). If you really wanted a fresh environment, last worlds shouldn't have been Kha VS Lee EVERY GAME. But there are others examples. Gragas shared the spotlight simultaneously with Sej, yet he's still there. Rek'Sai is an highly contested pick since relase. By your logic, i expect Elise to be destroyed and forgotten for months after worlds. Yeah, i'm waiting for that. All of this looks so arbitrary. So many double standards.)

I'm sorry to be harsh, but this kind of statement completely contradics what you claim to be your goals. Aren't you aiming for variety and balance? How artificially knee-jerk weakening champions based on populatiry and personal discretion is good balancing? How does it create variety beyond a rotating metagame of 3-4 "stronger" jungle picks?

Nobody here is asking Sej to go back to her pick/ban 60% winrate status. Probably many don't even want her to be on par with the strongest junglers atm. People just want to play her without feeling like they're harming their team. And i think reverting half of the 50% damage reduction on her main damaging spell it's more than fair, because it is a buff which won't make her strong again, but neither weak. And that, to me, is balance.

PS: I DONT PLAY SEJ. HELL, I DONT EVEN LIKE HER!

258 Comments

RedCyclone83 votes

Something that worries me more in that thread

"Who do you guys get the most complaints to nerf?"

"Always - Yasuo and Riven"

I get that Riven is getting a tiny nerf soon, but there is a fucking good reason they are complained about, they are solid lane bullies who are unfun to play against that scale incredibly well into lategame Saying they are unfair is just a understatement, they have no fucking cons

And yet they still meander around Yasuo

Sweetiex17 votes

{quoted}

Something that worries me more in that thread

"Who do you guys get the most complaints to nerf?"

"Always - Yasuo and Riven"

I get that Riven is getting a tiny nerf soon, but there is a fucking good reason they are complained about, they are solid lane bullies who are unfun to play against that scale incredibly well into lategame Saying they are unfair is just a understatement, they have no fucking cons

And yet they still meander around Yasuo

There's a bunch on champions that can deal with Riven. Easily. There is also jungle ganking. I'm getting tired of people whining about Riven when they make no effort to learn how to deal with her.

There's been so many games where I've been completely useless as Riven, because of one early gank. Only because the champion I was laning against was stronger than riven.

If something is "unfun" to play against it's LeBlanc. Can deal massive damage. Can escape almost anything. Has a root that latches on to you and has an insane tether range, basically making it impossible for you to escape it. LeBlanc need 250 AP to burst squishies in the mid game. She can do this 3-4 times in the time Riven can do it once.

So yea. Learn to deal with Riven.

LankPants58 votes

Isn't it funny how only Riven mains think that?

Alpharite10 votes

I've never played Riven before (maybe a few times before I hit 30 during free weeks) and I agree with him.

Sweetiex13 votes

{quoted}

Isn't it funny how only Riven mains think that?

Isn't it funny how only Riven mains seem to know which champions counter her? Maybe people should try to play her instead of whining.

Noam Braumsky33 votes

[{quoted}](name=im in that brush,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GjXml577,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2015-10-24T15:44:00.020+0000)

Isn't it funny how only Riven mains seem to know which champions counter her? Maybe people should try to play her instead of whining.

I mean, when the only people who don't think something should be nerfed are the people who use that thing constantly I'd say it's reason for suspicion.

HappyHazard076 votes

I'm not a Riven main and i think that.

Mecha MaIphite10 votes

I don't play Riven, and I don't mind laning against her, provided I get to pick into her.

Battlecast Sona33 votes

The problem isn't that Riven is "overpowered", Riven is broken. People don't understand that a champion can be broken without being overpowered. Riven's kit, inherently, gives her a ton of tools to win her lane - you can max Q if you wanna fight or max E if you don't, and you still become hyper mobile with some CDR. If you can manage not to die in your lane and get an item or two you basically win any "hard" matchup as a result of how hard Riven scales with just a bit of CDR and some items (due to her only gating mechanism being CDs). Additionally, she has the caveat of basically being a really good duelist at all points of the game.

The real issue with Riven is just her shield. A shield that scales with AD and is a dash on a 3 second CD with some CDR is pretty insane. Nobody is arguing that LB isn't also annoying, but LB isn't as strong at all points of the game (she falls off in comparison to a lot of control mages in the lategame) whereas Riven basically never falls off unless she gets behind, and if you play safely she's one of the hardest champs to gank in the game.

Riven's kit is broken and overloaded, but she's still beatable because that's how Riot sleeps at night. It doesn't mean there aren't fundamental problems with her kit though.

NoDomeAtHome11 votes

{quoted}

Something that worries me more in that thread

"Who do you guys get the most complaints to nerf?"

"Always - Yasuo and Riven"

I get that Riven is getting a tiny nerf soon, but there is a fucking good reason they are complained about, they are solid lane bullies who are unfun to play against that scale incredibly well into lategame Saying they are unfair is just a understatement, they have no fucking cons

And yet they still meander around Yasuo

Yes yes yes yes... fuck yasuo, and fuck riven... the fact they know about it is a testament to how few shits they give about balance.

Noam Braumsky7 votes

{quoted}

Yes yes yes yes... fuck yasuo, and fuck riven... the fact they know about it is a testament to how few shits they give about balance.

To me it's more about design than balance. An ad scaling shield combined with 3 other ad-scaling abilities just seems to be asking for trouble.

Yasuo's kit just seems to have too much stuff in it. He has a lot of weaknesses and a lot of strengths, and I'd rather have champions with well-defined weaknesses and strengths like Nasus, Nunu, or Varus.

A Miss Fortune24 votes

Riot doesn't prioritize champions at all. Their balance team has no sense of prioritizing anybody and will work on seemingly any champion at a given time unless they're shooting up to 60% win rates in solo queue. That's Riot's main issue.

Mecha MaIphite13 votes

{quoted}

Saying they are unfair is just a understatement, they have no fucking cons

I am not claiming that either of these champions is super balanced and tons of fun to lane against, but this is just completely incorrect. Riven has no actual sustain until she builds lifesteal (and she usually goes for tiamat/brutalizer first), she isn't very useful if she falls behind given the small radius of her CC, and she can't poke an opponent out of lane; she has to all in, and if her opponent is someone who can beat her early game, that won't end well.

Yasuo has a plethora of weaknesses, they just aren't as evident because his strengths are rather overbearing.

Dedraak3 votes

Really feel like both have a lot of weaknesses, but a good player is able to make the duration of those weaknesses feel extremely short or nonexistent.

Noam Braumsky5 votes

Although for a good riven it is quite rare to fall behind.

Same with yasuo. He's quite difficult to master from what I've seen (and played) but once you do it's pretty easy to keep up.

l Helios l5 votes

Although this thread is off-subject, here's my insight:

I think a better way of looking at this is to take what the champions can and can't do into consideration. Riven has:

  1. Good early game pressure
  2. High kill potential pre-6 and post-6
  3. Resource-less
  4. High base damages and scaling
  5. 3 mini dashes and a full dash + flash
  6. Cone-based skill shot that increases based on % health missing
  7. 1 stun, 1 knockup, 1 shield that scales with ad
  8. Enhanced auto attacks based on her passive

Okay, with all this in mind, here's what Riven doesn't have:

  1. Team-fighting presence against a solid tank line
  2. Innate sustain (sustain as part of her kit, no a shield doesn't count as sustain)
  3. Solid engage in teamfights (all you can really do is dash or play around using fog of war, which everyone can do)
  4. Reliable late game presence (by this I mean she is not guaranteed to be useful late game like a Malphite or a Sion)

Now, given those pros and cons, Riven's greatest weakness is in her lack of sustain and her lack of team-fighting presence as long as the team fight is played well by the enemy team. The reason Riven isn't that big a deal for most players is because they know how to deal with her. They don't walk up to her at level 2 expecting to all in her and win, which some champions can do if played correctly. I'm not telling you how you're suppose to fight against her, but looking at it from this perspective, this tells you who you should use to fight her. By that I mean, someone who has good early damage, high kill threat, and sustain.

Darius & Renekton & Sion & Maokai & Tryndamere are all quite solid picks because each has something that Riven doesn't have, sustain (minus Sion, he has innate tankiness and shield that makes him hard to take down.) All of these also have team fight presence (tryndamere to a smaller degree) and tankiness in their kit or build both (again tryndamere to a smaller degree).

Just something to consider.

IcyPepper4 votes

no a shield doesn't count as sustain

Sometimes! :V

Mostly for jungling, though. Not so much for laning, so I wouldn't consider Riven's shield sustain unless you managed to jungle with her.

Keevalroy39 votes

Yasuo is a flashy playmaker like Lee, therefore he's protected. Scarizard can say "lol that's just a tinfoil hat theory" all he wants, but based on the balance team's actions for the last few seasons, I'm curious why we should trust a single thing they say with so many double standards and contradictions in their reasoning when they try to defend their _favorites. _

Slamurai Jack8 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo is a flashy playmaker like Lee, therefore he's protected. Scarizard can say "lol that's just a tinfoil hat theory" all he wants, but based on the balance team's actions for the last few seasons, I'm curious why we should trust a single thing they say with so many double standards and contradictions in their reasoning when they try to defend their _favorites. _

Yasuo had a 42% win rate after 4.18. Spare me. Just because you don't remember it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Keevalroy21 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GjXml577,comment-id=000000080000,timestamp=2015-10-24T19:50:32.114+0000)

Yasuo had a 42% win rate after 4.18. Spare me.

Leblanc had a win rate in the mid-40's when she had her silence, and was nerfed because she was bullshit. Win rate totally makes all the difference.

Anidan22 votes

Win rate means something until it's no longer convenient from what I've seen on the boards.

Stacona8 votes

Yasuo is broken in every aspect about him - he needs a majour rework and so does Kalista, Riven they just need to give her real cooldowns like Renekton because she is resourceless,

Sythriel Draken4 votes

I agree yas needs to be nerfed, or at least his ultimate cooldown become longer or lose the 50% armor penetration on ALL his abilities for 5 seconds after he presses r. it's annoying when even with full tank, randies, and 300+ armor a yasuo can 4 shot after an ult.

chide da jungler35 votes

Id prefer it if they tried to keep all champions viable

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

Everyone would. We're just pointing out the hypocrisy in this statement.

Keevalroy24 votes

They almost had that in the last days of the cinderhulk meta, but they saw that the LCS was stale with so many tanks pushing away the flashy playmakers in every role, and that ugly champions like Yorick of all picks were being chosen. Welp, we can't have that can we? Nevermind that we had the most viable champions at one time with only small changes necessary to have near-perfect balance and an overall happy community - Cinderhulk was nerfed repeatedly, tanks were shafted, and playmakers were buffed all at the same time...right before Worlds. How convenient.

Anidan5 votes

I won't lie: The era of Cinderhulk was pretty good, but... to call it near perfect is kinda wrong.

That said, it's still the best balanced I've seen the game in a good few seasons. I miss it, but not as much as most. Tanks ruling the world, to the point where Cinderhulk being picked up by both supports and top laners as well, went pretty well beyond frustrating.

Keevalroy11 votes

Nah I wasn't calling the meta perfect; what I'm saying is that it could have been close with some minimal changes instead of the overhaul it got instead.

"Waah I'm an ADC and I can't kill the tanks with my BT and no armor pen!"

Well, I'm an ADC main and I loved it. You don't NEED to go BT every game - you can in fact go BotRK and still do damage...it's not a federal crime to use your brain.

"But I'm an assassin and can't get through their tanks!"

Isn't that what being an assassin is all about? Trying to maneuver your way around your target's defenses to do your job? No? You just want to blind rush them and still get the kill and get out safely? Hmm.

"I'm a squishy carry and don't like tanks surrounding me!"

Why are you on the front line? Why don't you look to your own team and look for protection from your own tanky frontline? Don't you feel safe now?

If there was a time to halt major changes, this was the time. We had the best state of game health in years, and while I understand perfect balance is impossible, it certainly could have been close. But no, that's apparently unacceptable.

Anidan2 votes

Ah, then when that clarification, that is my bad. I wholeheartedly agree that with some changes it could've been the best balance League had ever seen, but then Riot just let it slip through their fingers..

As a guy who likes playing Immobile mages for the most part (other than Fizz and Ezreal, get at me) I did enjoy that time, the at-the-time-current meta of everyone taking Cinderhulk nothwithstanding. Everyone had their role, and everyone had to perform it or fall flat on their face.

But then some people started crying about it, and things changed for the worse again. Hell, I won't even say it was the ADCs crying, because it wasn't (most ADCs I know realize their natural role is a tank-buster, so ADCs had importance beyond being an assassin's chew toy).

Keevalroy4 votes

I hate to use the phrase "learn to play" when I defend this meta, but it was a requirement. If you didn't as you mentioned: preform the role your class fulfilled, then you would lose. From there, you can learn what you did wrong, and likewise, learn the game from that experience.

Not only was this a healthy meta for current players, I'd almost venture to say it was a decent meta where new players could learn the game, especially with so many viable picks where people didn't look at you funny for not picking from the list of 15 - 20 viable choices we normally have.

In before: "HURR ROSE COLORED GLASSES META SUCKED RITO KNOWS BEST!"

Varalessia32 votes

They've destroyed Rek'Sai as much as they possibly can before they just start removing things from her kit, I question why you didn't bring up Thresh as at this rate he's going to transcend Lee Sin's popularity, Elise was already destroyed and forgotten about for a long, long time, I think it's okay that she finally got her say once more. You missed a lot of valid examples like Vayne, as I already mentioned, Thresh, most certainlyT champs for that matter or how when a certain handful of champs get any traction (or even notion of traction) what so ever it's made sure they don't come into the meta, Kayle, Evelynn, etc.

All in all its a true post, if that view reflects Riot's philosophy as a whole (After all, he uses 'we') it would explain their sometimes incredibly questionable balance team.

GelsominoKiller16 votes

You're right. Vayne, tresh, jinx by that logic should all see the nerf hammer and a long period of unviability. (I focused on the jungle roster.)

All of them share a solid pick AND win rate for a LONG time. Do i think they should be nerfed out of the scene? No. i dont want anybody to be too weak to be played.

If the champ is too strong, he needs nerfs. If he's too weak, buffs. Right now, popularity is too much of a factor in balancing: based on the scale of the backlash, terrible reworks are reverted (Lee sin) or blatantly shoved down our throaths (mordekaiser). Higher pickrate effectively buys a better treatment.

LordBrasca26 votes

Gonna copy and paste what i already said in another post:

"So they buff/nerf champions based on how much in the "spotlight" they have been? Good to know, that explains a lot. It also explains why this game will never be close to balanced.

Just look at what cho is getting, he's completely fine but less picked, i'm 90% sure that he will be fotm when the PBE buff will be live. He was already "annoying" to deal with when he was the meta, just imagine what happens with those buffs.

Also look at mordekaiser, he was a fine champ (50% winrate) with just a lower than normal popularity and they drasticly changed him for no reason at all, even by knowing that most of mordekaiser mains were against the rework. Now he became an unbalanceable broken thing...

Want another example? Veigar. Same as mordekaiser he was sitting with a nice 50% winrate with almost the same popularity of mordekaiser, he was perfectly fine but they decided to overbuff him for no reason for "Muh LC$" reasons and now he will be probably slowly gutted to 45% winrate tier (hope not obviously).

There are many other examples i could make... But it would take too much time to write them all. Hope that someday Riot will change their attitude for the sake of an healthier game"

manbearswine8 votes

{quoted}

"So they buff/nerf champions based on how much in the "spotlight" they have been? Good to know, that explains a lot. It also explains why this game will never be close to balanced.

Only to some extent,mainly they buff/nerf champions depending on how much they like them.

Just look at what cho is getting, he's completely fine but less picked, i'm 90% sure that he will be fotm when the PBE buff will be live. He was already "annoying" to deal with when he was the meta, just imagine what happens with those buffs.

Have you actually looked at those buffs? They appear extremely minor,mostly just polishing his kit,it's basically like giving roa health regen when it reaches max stacks,I highly doubt he will be fotm after them.

Also look at mordekaiser, he was a fine champ (50% winrate) with just a lower than normal popularity and they drasticly changed him for no reason at all, even by knowing that most of mordekaiser mains were against the rework. Now he became an unbalanceable broken thing...

Yeah well that tends to be the case when certainlyT gets involved.

Want another example? Veigar. Same as mordekaiser he was sitting with a nice 50% winrate with almost the same popularity of mordekaiser, he was perfectly fine but they decided to overbuff him for no reason for "Muh LC$" reasons and now he will be probably slowly gutted to 45% winrate tier (hope not obviously).

This is a shit example,veigar was legitimately bad after his rebalance,and until his latest buff his e made no sense(and yes,0.25 less delay is VERY meaningful),yes they overbuffed him,but is it really that bad for a champion who has been irrelevant for years? What happened with him so far is good,his kit now works together well and he just needs some toning down on his numbers(and remove his fucking enemy ap ratio for fucks sake,or it will hold him back),whereas his current state is a reminder to people that he is irrelevant no more and an encouragement to pick him up,there is however a very serious concern of him getting sejuani'd,but that is only a problem if they choose to apply second-class balancing to him.

There are many other examples i could make... But it would take too much time to write them all. Hope that someday Riot will change their attitude for the sake of an healthier game"

Doubt it,they will just compensate ahri instead.

MrWasjig4 votes

Excuse me while I wait for the fucking planets to align....

BastionKross24 votes

If this logic applied to Lee, he'd be "gone from the spotlight" for ten years.

HayRoss10 votes

It's not like he could see it

AMYS GRAVE24 votes

Sejuani was dominant for one patch, and her name isn't lee sin so we can't leave her viable.

Yfrappefort20 votes

Just Thresh thinking Yasuo about LeeSin those Vayne champions Jinx made me very mad when I saw this statement for the first time.

How can they claim not having double standards after that?

MrWasjig13 votes

Because they're fucking liars. Would have thought this was abundantly clear by now.

Keevalroy5 votes

"Nah, we're not liars because we said so. We're not going to provide any evidence for our defense because there isn't any we don't have to." - Rito Gaemz Belence Depurtment.

Lugg19 votes

I agree, the hypocrisy in that post is just sad.

If they actually meant that, Ahri Fizz Yasuo LeeSin Leblanc Zed Thresh Nidalee Kalista would have all been gutted and not been playable for a year.

Lao Fu the Tiger18 votes

To be fair, Elise WAS dumpstered for a good bit of Season 5; in fact, she was objectively the worst champion in the game for several months.

KING OF MASKS11 votes

Didn't they explicitly state in one of their recent dev blogs that they didn't balance based on popularity? Like, at all?

If anyone can find that quote I'll give 'em a cookie.

manbearswine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=KING OF MASKS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GjXml577,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-10-24T16:27:05.996+0000)

Didn't they explicitly state in one of their recent dev blogs that they didn't balance based on popularity? Like, at all?

If anyone can find that quote I'll give 'em a cookie.

Well,according to what Light24o1 has quoted,that's not exactly it. They say they won't nerf champions for being very popular,or buff champions for being rarely seen,however them refusing to nerf overpowered popular champions is definetly on the table,and so is them not giving a flying fuck about weak unpopular champions,so that's not exactly what you said.

KING OF MASKS3 votes

They literally said in the dev blog that Light2401 quoted that they strive "to avoid sacrificing balance just to promote variety" -- Time Wizard, on the other hand, explicitly explains that they're not buffing Sejuani right now because she was very popular very recently. These two statements are mutually exclusive.

PaladinNO9 votes

If I played a champion I was just told would get nerfed to keep her underperforming for a time, I would be forced to pick another champion, and with no real choice in it. I would not take kindly to something like that.

And even if I kept at the same champion after that, and everyone knew how "bad" that champion was performing, in the belief that I can do well, I bet you it would lead to toxicity to even consider a deliberately nerfed champion. Feels like the older champions are left to be forgotten, whereas certain champions are having a kit more suited to actually play and with stats to match.

"we're just trying to let other champions have some time in the spotlight!"...THAT'S JUST ALISTARDUNG! Balance the entire champion pool instead of play favourites on a rotation. Easier said than done, I know, but it's better to try than deliberately keeping down some of the champions.

And on that note, what's the deal with Gangplank and Mordekaiser in Worlds? "Globally banned", I think today's casters said about them. If some champions are so OP (to use that term) that every Worlds team are banning them by default (something I can't really rememeber happening before), that shows just how poor a job someone at Riot is doing (or is it Tencent perhaps who's to blame..?) if such a huge(!) oversight has been made.

I even thought that's the reason for the PBEs entire existence: to prevent general obvious brokenenss (if that even is a word).

Bob Leguan8 votes

Notice how no red is replying

Faded Lich7 votes

and still not a single riot post. Coward be cowards.

Azteryz5 votes

rip Sejuani Sion

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by GelsominoKiller

Unpopular opinion: don't buff tanks
Gameplay80 comments
144
votes
Teleport Nerf was uncalled for. And pointless
Gameplay24 comments
124
votes
"Sex sells" is legitimate as long as it does not hinder character identity/theme/coherence
Story, Art, & Sound175 comments
124
votes
Just tuning in to draw attention on the fact that...
Gameplay46 comments
101
votes
Non-Support tanks are finding success only with damage builds.
Gameplay63 comments
85
votes
After a near two year break, last season i got back on track in LoL and went from S3 to D5....
Gameplay62 comments
73
votes