Re: Tanks are useless

bad manner kid·Jan 27, 2015·2 votes·1,440 views

I think everyone has had that game where every team fight feels like you're running into a brick wall that suffocates you with cc and shreds you.

Examples: Gnar, Jarvan, Sion, Trundle, and in older seasons Shen, Volibear, Malphite etc.

I've been a victim of tanks (poor team composition?) many times, and it scares me to think people want defensive items buffed. Some champions when slightly ahead already feel unstoppable due to level scaling.

I recall games where I've built LW + Ghostblade + Bork in response to high hp/armor and still not been able to make a significant impact in CC-oriented tank compositions.

So as far as replies go: What direction would you really want defensive buffs to go? Do you really think games are fun when players are near invincible and walk away from 3v1 ambushes? Recall the simplest abuses like the old Doran's Shield on some top laners, it was horrendous.

13 Comments

TalamareJan 27, 20155 votes

The problem is NOT "Tanks are useless"

The problem is that they are dying TOO FAST when going full Tank

You can have 20k full build in Tank items, you will still melt in less than 5 seconds against BORK/LW and a Black Cleaver on a 2nd person

JefftiffyJan 27, 20155 votes

The problem isn't tanks. Its stacking 2-3 armor pens to null 50+% of your gold when they spent all of 4-6k.

A 4+k hp tank with reses getting bursted by an assassin for 3k damage is insane.

TehNACHOJan 27, 20153 votes

I think a large problem about the weird perspective on tanks that people have is that not many people know what is a True or Utility Tank, and what's a Fighter or Bruiser.

To give a more specific example of what I mean, more people think Mundo is a straight up tank than a Fighter.

There's literally a thread that made this very mistake that was opened a few days ago; I won't link it here because that'd be excessive, but basically a guy was complaining that his Renekton was getting shredded by the enemy Caitlyn. If you can understand the difference between a Fighter and a dedicated tank, you're probably going to notice right away the titanic problem about complaining as the Renekton player in this scenario.

Mayor StubbsJan 27, 20152 votes

I dont want them buffed, i think itll just make early/mid game powerhouses like lee and j4 even less manageable.

ErockandrollJan 27, 20152 votes

You can't just make the Tank Unkillable, that would be boring and uninteractive. You need the Tank to do interesting things to give them a purpose.

The Tanks Primary purpose is Team Fight. Making them Reliant on their carries. And Yolo Queuer's can't seem to get that though their thick skull. They just want to go in and survive anything.

Seeing as Tanks can't do that. They assume Tanks are useless and Just pick carries into games. And start picking their noses waiting for the best Opportunity, That never comes Because the enemy engages First Melting their entire team because they have no peel.

SmokingPuffinJan 27, 20152 votes

I think the main thing with tanks is that the cc and utility they bring generally doesn't match up against the raw sustained damage output you get from a bruiser. Currently, tanks are a bit better in teamfights than your initiation-focused bruisers (e.g. Vi, Jarvan), but they're worse at everything else by enough to make it not worth it to field a tank.

As such, I recommend buffing tanks in other areas. I don't think we need tankier tanks. I think they need to be more useful outside of teamfights, with better laning phases against bruisers and safer clears in the jungle.

StephenizgodJan 27, 20152 votes

There are certain champs where you feel they are unkillable but when you actually break down how much damage you do to them compared to what items they build (meaning BotRK+LW+Ghostblade/Cleaver shreds a tank with a full build in only a few seconds with those 3 items alone) you will realize that you are actually doing a decent amount of damage per attack, they just arnt letting you get enough damage off to hurt them. Also most of those you mentioned are bruisers (or tanks that have built in ways of dealing a on of damage/stopping you from dealing a ton of damage) and they are a tough to balance or use as an example for either tanks or fighters because they do both roles better when done correctly. Basically we want to have a role other then CC machines (lay down your CC then it doesnt really matter if you die, not much fun...) and we dont want other roles buying a few tank items and being better because they have damage.

Tanks do not want to be unkillable, we just want late game cost efficient items, like those available to the other roles. We dont want to be melted in less then 3 seconds by an ADC simply because they have LW and a bunch of Crit. Its not even the fact that ADC's melt us (although 3-4 seconds is too fast) its the fact that Assassins melt us, we are there to counter them and yet because of a few items they shred us like we are nothing. The fear is Tanks being unkillable, but honestly they are kind of suppose to have that feeling to begin with, its what makes you build armor pen. You are suppose to build armor pen against them because you want to be able to kill them, not because it skyrockets your damage against everything.

cZairJan 27, 20152 votes

{quoted}

There are certain champs where you feel they are unkillable but when you actually break down how much damage you do to them compared to what items they build (meaning BotRK+LW+Ghostblade/Cleaver shreds a tank with a full build in only a few seconds with those 3 items alone) you will realize that you are actually doing a decent amount of damage per attack, they just arnt letting you get enough damage off to hurt them. Also most of those you mentioned are bruisers (or tanks that have built in ways of dealing a on of damage/stopping you from dealing a ton of damage) and they are a tough to balance or use as an example for either tanks or fighters because they do both roles better when done correctly. Basically we want to have a role other then CC machines (lay down your CC then it doesnt really matter if you die, not much fun...) and we dont want other roles buying a few tank items and being better because they have damage.

Tanks do not want to be unkillable, we just want late game cost efficient items, like those available to the other roles. We dont want to be melted in less then 3 seconds by an ADC simply because they have LW and a bunch of Crit. Its not even the fact that ADC's melt us (although 3-4 seconds is too fast) its the fact that Assassins melt us, we are there to counter them and yet because of a few items they shred us like we are nothing. The fear is Tanks being unkillable, but honestly they are kind of suppose to have that feeling to begin with, its what makes you build armor pen. You are suppose to build armor pen against them because you want to be able to kill them, not because it skyrockets your damage against everything.

This guy pretty much has the idea. This guy pretty much right.

JalkanJan 27, 20151 votes

Yes, I think tanks are fine right now also. They have enough to stay in the game.

SEKAIJan 27, 20151 votes

So good tanks are because their class is too good, while the "press r to kill" or the "Carpal tunnel syndrome" people are clearly useless and need much skill to play.

Besides some assassins and certain jungle cc tanker 1 shot machine (Yes, you LeeSin JarvanIV ). Tanks are not all that good unless ofc, they're good, which is fair.

And it's not wrong to say that tanks or bruisers lack diverse itemisation and I would say it's actually kinda right.

Hell WeekJan 27, 20151 votes

you forgot to mention reksai, my win rate with him is like 100%. Tanky, crazy damage, and crazy cc.

Arcade AndrewJan 27, 20151 votes

the problem isnt tanks are useless the problem is tanks are useless early game then late game "holyshitlordjesusIcantkillthisguy.jpg"

TheI3igDaddyJan 27, 20151 votes

I'm a tank main, so I'm going to give as unbiased of an opinion as possible.

I feel the main reason that tank items should be buffed is that they aren't as gold-efficient as offensive items. Especially if penetration items are so common, tanks need to be actually TANKS so they can soak up as much damage as possible.

But of course, the core design issue with tank items is that bruisers can still use them to equal or greater value. We need an item or two that gives bonus resists or health so that it encourages tanks to buy it while bruisers opt for more hybrid offense / damage items.