VelKoz/Xerath are so hard to deal with bot lane

ContDeCaterinca1·Apr 28, 2019·2 votes·2,014 views

Out of all the champions that are played as supports, you know Pyke, Zyra, Brand, Lux, this 2 champions are just unplayable, they stay out of engage supports reach and slowly cheap you down spamming abilities on cooldown. Enchanters don't stand a chance against them either, they can't repel this much damage.

Most of them are also mains of those champions, so they play very well and abuse their poke to make the life of normal bot duos miserable.

There is a reason ADCs don't work well in solo lanes, so why mages should work well as supports or even in the place of ADCs?

20 Comments

DalekZecApr 28, 20193 votes

Personally, I find mage support to be toxic, and that's coming from a mage player, Vel'Koz main to be more specific.

However, while i can't speak for Xerath (except his Q hitbox is bs and unfair), i can give a few things about Vel'Koz.

Vel'koz's Q can be casted geometrically at almost any angles he wants. But usually the difficult part is when to time the recast so you can hit. The best for you to do is keep an eye on his Q and take a wild guess on when he will recast it or if you happen to have enough time to react, do so and side step. It takes practice you ask me. His W isn't that hurting when it comes to its damage (at least early game), but it's something to be careful from since it can add a stack for his passive, while it has a long cooldown, it's 1 thing that leaves a window for an engage. His E is his only proper cc. Baiting it out is important so that you can go all ham on him. 1 advantage is that his e is a little telegraphed, so having a little movement speed and not just going in a straight line are keys to dodge it. R...well how i would describe it, his R is scary when used, and his R is "holy shit! i just shit my pants!" level of terrifying scary if used after a passive proc. The best is engage cc and high mobility.

Vel'Koz is strong vs enchanters due to range and despite him being a mid/late game champion (true damage) but due to how squishee traditional bot lane champs are, this is like a short cut for him to mid game. HOWEVER, the best champions who can handle him quite well are the following: Alistar Thresh Morgana Blitzcrank Leona Lucian Rakan Caitlyn Ezreal

Any champions who can zone him out (Caitlyn's traps) and any champions who can engage and cc (Leona and Blitz) and champion with some mobility (Lucian and Ezreal. Vayne works too).

Vel'koz and i think mage supports are good counters to enchanters because their early game is so weak. but pick something with an engage and cc, and Vel'koz is more like a squid ready to be turned into sushi rather than a scary kraken from Pirates of the Caribbean.

ContDeCaterinca1Apr 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Personally, I find mage support to be toxic, and that's coming from a mage player, Vel'Koz main to be more specific.

However, while i can't speak for Xerath (except his Q hitbox is bs and unfair), i can give a few things about Vel'Koz.

Vel'koz's Q can be casted geometrically at almost any angles he wants. But usually the difficult part is when to time the recast so you can hit. The best for you to do is keep an eye on his Q and take a wild guess on when he will recast it or if you happen to have enough time to react, do so and side step. It takes practice you ask me. His W isn't that hurting when it comes to its damage (at least early game), but it's something to be careful from since it can add a stack for his passive, while it has a long cooldown, it's 1 thing that leaves a window for an engage. His E is his only proper cc. Baiting it out is important so that you can go all ham on him. 1 advantage is that his e is a little telegraphed, so having a little movement speed and not just going in a straight line are keys to dodge it. R...well how i would describe it, his R is scary when used, and his R is "holy shit! i just shit my pants!" level of terrifying scary if used after a passive proc. The best is engage cc and high mobility.

Vel'Koz is strong vs enchanters due to range and despite him being a mid/late game champion (true damage) but due to how squishee traditional bot lane champs are, this is like a short cut for him to mid game. HOWEVER, the best champions who can handle him quite well are the following:

Any champions who can zone him out (Caitlyn's traps) and any champions who can engage and cc (Leona and Blitz) and champion with some mobility (Lucian and Ezreal. Vayne works too).

Vel'koz and i think mage supports are good counters to enchanters because their early game is so weak. but pick something with an engage and cc, and Vel'koz is more like a squid ready to be turned into sushi rather than a scary kraken from Pirates of the Caribbean.

Thank you very much for the elaborate response.

Yeah I first picked Tahm in my last match and they took Leona afterwards, I thought its ok. Then I see VelKoz ADC and I am like here we go again.

VelKoz poked not stop, with Leona landing her E from time to time and that was the lane.

We hard fed on the champion I am most confident and that was tilting af.

I guess better judgement is needed when first picking support.

I just wish there weren't so many skillshots piercing minions, it would make laning vs mages much easier, especially with Xerath Q and W being so hard to avoid.

DalekZecApr 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Thank you very much for the elaborate response.

Yeah I first picked Tahm in my last match and they took Leona afterwards, I thought its ok. Then I see VelKoz ADC and I am like here we go again.

VelKoz poked not stop, with Leona landing her E from time to time and that was the lane.

We hard fed on the champion I am most confident and that was tilting af.

I guess better judgement is needed when first picking support.

I just wish there weren't so many skillshots piercing minions, it would make laning vs mages much easier, especially with Xerath Q and W being so hard to avoid.

1 thing i can say is that Xerath is more unfair than Vel'Koz. Seriously i was a mile away from his Q 1 time, and it hits me anyway.

And Vel'Koz adc? Yeah...whaaaa? wth has this world gone to now?!? I'm disgusted. The damn squid belongs in mid lane and to be a scary kraken, not a cowardly Squidward from Spongebob Squarepants. And before you or anybody goes "but there will be no diversity!", well guess what, diversity itself is what makes another class of champions nothing but troll picks because of how useless they'll be.

This fuckin saddens me.

ContDeCaterinca1Apr 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

1 thing i can say is that Xerath is more unfair than Vel'Koz. Seriously i was a mile away from his Q 1 time, and it hits me anyway.

This I can agree on. With no boots you can't dodge Xerath, hitboxes too big.

DalekZecApr 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

This I can agree on. With no boots you can't dodge Xerath, hitboxes too big.

It's not that the hitbox is too big, it's actually bugged up. Not even with fuckin boots is of any use. I had matches vs a Xerath where i was so far away from his Q's hitbox (by sidestep, not out of its range) and it hits me anyway. With or without boots. It's a bug i tell you. Even the Xerath player got confused. You know like those Blitz and Thresh hooks? Same thing.

Stars ShaperApr 28, 20191 votes

item 1001 counter the entire Xerath kit. Just get used ot hitboxes. The Q's is a bit hard to tell if you are not used ot it because the beam visuals are not on ground level and thus it might seem different than its hitbox.

CrystalyskApr 28, 20191 votes

Vel'koz is strong because he doesn't have mana issues. Especially in the early game botlane where he doesnt need to focus on cs and can poke. You must be bad as f*ck to run oom as Vel'koz.

DalekZecApr 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Vel'koz is strong because he doesn't have mana issues. Especially in the early game botlane where he doesnt need to focus on cs and can poke. You must be bad as f*ck to run oom as Vel'koz.

Vel'Koz's mana is not infinite especially with the early game. A full combo in the early (QWE) will deplete him badly.

When played properly, it feels like he has no mana to begin with. Not to mention how safe he will be and even has to be so he won't die.

Although, since he can't farm, he can't scale, and if he can't scale, he won't be threatening later on while you can have enough power to deal with him and tank him well. Unless he has ulti.

CrystalyskApr 28, 20191 votes

Yes, every thing you said is true, but there is no other mage that can poke so well and with that range without running oom.

DalekZecApr 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yes, every thing you said is true, but there is no other mage that can poke so well and with that range without running oom.

The only reason why Vel's Q is one of the longest is due to the Q's geometry. It's literally not the longest range in game. It's just aiming it at an angel, giving it the extra boost.

It's not so easy to master since it can be minion blocked. I've had so much practice that i can even cast the Q between minions at a tight space.

hrooza dota Apr 28, 20191 votes

tbh as vel i dont QWE in lane unless they engage on me

i mostly just Q spam and maybe W to proc passive.

E is just when i see an easy kill or if they engage

also item 2010 is insane

DalekZecApr 28, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=hrooza dota ,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rkWTmt6q,comment-id=0001000100000001,timestamp=2019-04-28T18:25:10.620+0000)

tbh as vel i dont QWE in lane unless they engage on me

i mostly just Q spam and maybe W to proc passive.

E is just when i see an easy kill or if they engage

also is insane

That's basically how Vel should be played even in the mid lane though.

I rarely use biscuit delivery. I either use stopwatch + 5% cdr or future marketing + 5% cdr. That rune is situational and useful if the lane I'm in is no pressure at all.

hrooza dota Apr 28, 20191 votes

i take boots + biscuit kinda greedy but i play like a bitch in lane by standing back and throwing Qs so i dont suffer much with this.

DalekZecApr 28, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=hrooza dota ,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rkWTmt6q,comment-id=000100010000000100000000,timestamp=2019-04-28T18:55:44.748+0000)

i take boots + biscuit kinda greedy but i play like a bitch in lane by standing back and throwing Qs so i dont suffer much with this.

As i said before, that's how you're supposed to play. Do i even have to explain why? The squid can pop like a balloon.

KalikainApr 28, 20191 votes

So, I like to pick those champs as support, my biggest tip is to pick a healer support if you are blind picking support.

If you know who their support it, then you can pick play makers, otherwise nami/soraka/sona all destroy mage supports.

ContDeCaterinca1Apr 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

So, I like to pick those champs as support, my biggest tip is to pick a healer support if you are blind picking support.

If you know who their support it, then you can pick play makers, otherwise nami/soraka/sona all destroy mage supports.

They deal too much damage for me to heal back. That's how I feel. And they stay far back, so no one touches them.

Also Soraka/Sona/Nami are so squishy at 6 they get 1 shot. I don't want to burden the ADC with carrying 1 vs 2, cuz I just pop instantly.

HP CrookshanksApr 28, 20191 votes

They are also easy preys for assassins.

Minimac2000Apr 28, 20191 votes

Alistar, leona, and nami deal with both really well. I play a decent amount of velkoz sup and it is strong, but pull off an engage and it's a guaranteed kill and all 3 have enough sustain to pull one off. 2, they tend to push the wave so get a jungle gank for free kills 3.Unlike velkoz support, xerath and ziggs support are both garbage if you dont feed them 3 kills in lane. They need gold to be relevant damage (unlike velkoz bc of his passive true damage) and they need more gold than going even as a support can give them. As such you can just play like a coward, get better at dodging and just win as the more useful support post 14 minutes