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Serious Question: What Do You Think It Will Take To Get Out Of This Current "Meta" fully?

Xonra··7 votes·1,017 views

By current meta, I mean the one where bot side is FAR too important to how a game goes. Top side is not really important at all till team fights currently, and jungle is borderline a secondary support as far as engagement and getting the adc ahead (not in every case in every game obviously, but the majority of the time, you get bot ahead, you increase your chances of winning). I personally miss being able to play through split pushing but not a viable strategy right now unless you are already decently ahead. I know Riot doesn't like split pushing but I like it as an alternate strategy.

If your bot wins, you don't auto win but you have a massive advantage. If your bot loses it is the exact opposite of the previous statement.

Do you think the preseason stuff with runes and what not will shake things up enough? Do you think it is just a matter of waiting out the current nerfs/buffs? Do you think it will need something more drastic?

45 Comments

IcyPepper11 votes

When marksman are just as optional as every other class.

NakedGranny1 votes

Juggernauts / skirmishers aren't optional.

Fiora, Yi and Yasuo can 1v5. Riven can do it if she has the position to pounce on the right target to initiate. Garen, Nasus, Xin and Singed are just literally invincible because you can't kite them or chase them. A team with all squishies without one of those hypercarries just can't win no matter what because Veigar, Syndra and Malz all have cooldowns on their ults.

There are too many ways to ignore CC right now. Too many ways to reduce CC severity / duration, cleanse it or just press your gap-close button after your victim mage uses their pitiful 2 second slow/"stun". Ekko and Fizz are the worst offenders here.

Back in my day, the tradeoff for melee champions being so extremely powerful was that you could sometimes kite them for a few seconds. Not anymore.

Takazaki4 votes

Fiora, Yi and Yasuo can 1v5

item 3076 lul no

Riven is a meme unless played by someone who actively practices her on a daily basis

FTFY

Garen, Nasus, Xin and Singed are just literally invincible

So then why is it that all of these champion are extremely binary and have clearly defined counter play both in lane in outside it? raw power gets you nothing when you play around when it comes out. which is why these champions get harder to play the higher you climb.

A team with all squishies without one tank because they will lack initiation, survivibilty and lock down on priority targets

FTFY again

Ekko and Fizz are assassins who specialize in dodging things to deal damage and get out ofter doing so.

FTFY x3 and working as intended

Back in my day, the tradeoff for melee champions being so extremely powerful was that you could sometimes kite them for a few seconds

making those same champions completely unplayable VS anyone with disengage or a brain. look at Illaoi juggernauts with no way to stick to anything fail to preform. http://champion.gg/champion/Illaoi/Top?

AirKingNeo2 votes

Tanks are more broken then marksmen right now.

Teémò4 votes

change the entire map [sg-janna] 8 years of the same battle field

bàn2 votes

this tbh

Xonra1 votes

And then you immediately see the game go to crap. Don't think this is anywhere near a good idea.

PhDs Nuts4 votes

Fully? Nerf support items and stop making defense twice as strong as offense while releasing champs with 2-3 forms of CC.

Xonra1 votes

As someone who still enjoys support but really doesn't enjoy the current support meta, I completely agree.

GigglesO2 votes

Defense items aren't twice as strong. Have you tried building tank items on a carry champ... it doesn't work very well. Yet you can build damage on anyone.

Please stop confusing item efficiency and champion efficiency.

Edit: back in s1-s2 adc's did actually build tank items because they were just as efficient as ad items, but they were all nerfed so that they couldn't dip into anything but damage.

Kaìju4 votes

Remove the bot tower being easier to take. All of this "snowball bot side of the map" started with that. Even if Makrsmen are an optional pick, bot lane will still be the go to "win lane win game" strat because of the amount of gold that two kills, tower, and dragon give you. Not to mention towers could use some love. In most of my games, if we start to snowball we don't take a tower. We take two or three every time. They fall like snowmen, it's terrible.

The Bad Touch3 votes

No one even plays Juggernauts/skirmishers dude... lol.

Meta has been the same for 6 months. Tank or Rumble top/// Tank, EZ, or rarely Assassin Jungle/// Control Mage Mid///Ardent Support///Long Range Auto Attack Based Crit ADC.

Xonra1 votes

Not sure your point here as I said nothing about those. Are you just stating the obvious because reasons?

AirKingNeo3 votes

item 3031 item 3087 item 3036 [Warlord's Bloodlust] Twitch KogMaw Xayah Kalista Nerfed item 3504 item 3107 item 3190 item 3109 Lulu Janna Rakan Nerfed item 3193 item 3076 item 3075 item 3800 item 3194 Maokai Chogath Nerfed

item 3071 Unnerfed. item 3111 +5% tenacity, tenacity effects displacements.

Khristophoros4 votes

{quoted}

item 3031 item 3087 item 3036 [Warlord's Bloodlust] Twitch KogMaw Xayah Kalista Nerfed item 3504 item 3107 item 3190 item 3109 Lulu Janna Rakan Nerfed item 3193 item 3076 item 3075 item 3800 item 3194 Maokai Chogath Nerfed

item 3071 Unnerfed. item 3111 +5% tenacity, tenacity effects displacements.

I smell a bruiser main

Abibyama4 votes

He's/She's/It's right about item 3076 though, that item really makes bruisers with sustain life hard

Remove grievous wound part on the item or reduce it to 20%, increase cost to 1200-1300 and we'll be gucci

AirKingNeo1 votes

A lot of ADCs I'd say. :thinking:

But in all seriousness I think the arms war of tanks and ADCs is both stupid and makes bruisers shit. Broken support items just get abused by tanks and makes ADCs unkillable.

Abibyama1 votes

item 3071 Unnerfed to what? the item got multiple nerfs and changes that i don't even remember of them anymore. (Rip the brutalizer)

AirKingNeo1 votes

Armor shred back to 30%.

Probably make the passive named or not interact with Last Whisper because fuck Lucian and Jayce.

Abibyama1 votes

Last whisper reduces bonus armor and BC reduces total armor, so that would be pretty hard to not interact maybe idk

AirKingNeo1 votes

Could make it work like the interaction between Athene's Unholy Grail and Mikeals Crucible.

Grab2 votes

Runes should be enough to make a micro changes. We may not see a shift from the adc meta but we will see a change in which adv is top tier

Takazaki2 votes

this that have to change for the early game meta

Gold sharing has to stop from objectives or be reduced, this is what started rotational focus plays in the first place.

Bringing back shut down gold to killer only , again another thing that killed solo play and pushes objective play.

( none of these changes are good imo and should stay as is )

To change the bot lane meta you either have to buff tanks directly through itemization runes or stats.

or lower the cost of mage items and increase frost queen gold income ( basically will revert things to pre juggernaut patchs )

either that or heavily nerfed the utility of the support items ( which would be stupid, ardent was crazy yes but it took something that strong to make utility supports relevant for 1 session )

Rythmatic2 votes

If they remove lethality it will completely fix every mistake riots made in the last year.

Abibyama4 votes

Yeah, No

old armor pen was fucking cancer. rather not to go back there

AirKingNeo1 votes

The idea of lethality is actually really good.

Downside is Tabi is kinda broken, though can't be nerfed yet until ADCs get nerfed.

Abibyama1 votes

Never forget 12% reduced AA damage

Fun fact: in patch 6.11 the passive effect was increased from 10% to 12%

And 7.11 it was reduced back to 10%

AirKingNeo1 votes

It needed to be reduced back to 10%.

I just also think Berserker's needed to drop back to 30% AS with that.

Xonra1 votes

100% disagree on this. ADCs haven't abused Lethality in a long while now. FAR FAR FAAAAAAAR from the problem right now.

Meep Man2 votes

Honestly, never, at least for the lower ELOs. Bot Lane is two people. Every other lane is one person. Getting Bot fed is a two person advantage compared to a one person advantage in another lane. Unless they really warp how powerful a Mid and Top champion can potentially be or completely the very base line meta of the game, then never.

Xonra1 votes

Would disagree with the base logic here as if that were the case we would have been in this meta a long time ago which we weren't. Mid has been super important for a while, and we've had times where top was important as well.

I think part of the issue is the strength of dragon, the ease of getting into bot to gank more than it having anything to do with 2 people, and a weakness of the towers which makes the long range adcs who can take towers faster even stronger. Then you add in attack buffs with ardent and it is a recipe for bad stuff (in my opinion bad stuff).

Don't think it is simply "2 people better than 1"

Truly Prideful2 votes

item 3094 / item 3087 synergy needs to go, make them like the hydra items.

I would also increase combine costs on the zeal items by 300 as well as combine costs on several other commonly built marksman items. If it takes an additional 5-10 minutes to reach an item spike it gives the rest of the roles time to make plays on the map and halts the marksman's power a bit. Increasing costs keeps the lategame carry power intact while reducing the early impact. Certain marksmen still need to be looked at, namely Tristana and Twitch.

Lifesteal needs to be looked at as a mechanic. Perhaps make it a flat amount based on the AD of the champion rather than a percentage of the damage. If this happened bramble vest would likely need to lose grievous wounds but it could remain on the completed thornmail.

item 3089 - do something with this. Increase the percentage or give it some kind of scaling mechanic against enemy champions, just do something to make it the IE of mages or at least more appealing in general. Depending on how preseason ends up looking it might be worth giving the AP item list a slight bump up in general.

Bump turrets up a bit so they don't snowball as hard. Increase their defensive stats or give them a decent health boost. You shouldn't be able to slam down 3 turrets, an inhib, and the nexus in 35 seconds without Baron. You also shouldn't lose 60% of your turret health in a single minion wave early game.

Can we have a red ward trinket now? Please? I miss this as an option. I know it was obviously the pink ward trinket before, but you get the point.

Infernal Drake needs to be changed to +% damage to champions and not just damage in general.

Ultimately I would still just wait to see what the new runes do to the game, for all we know things might change on their own. I'm someone who is more of a fan of games in the 35-40 minute range so that's probably reflected a little in what I would do.

Khristophoros1 votes

Don't emulate the pro meta and you will have a very different experience. Top matters a lot more when you pick a strong split pusher and make yourself a huge problem.

Pick an assassin mid and shit on their mage.

Other than that IDK bot meta is pretty set in stone in solo queue it seems. They should gut lulu and janna.

Apocalypsic1 votes

And Soraka, and then the other enchanter supports and Rakan so they don't fill the power gap with the same nonsense just in different form.

Make it so enchanters aren't the best generalist supports and that is most of the bot meta solved.

Xonra2 votes

Making an entire class of champions bad doesn't solve the problem, it does makes a future problem. Then you will just start having more of the Morg and co in bot again.

Apocalypsic1 votes

That entire class of champions is improperly balanced for a pvp game, the problem already exists.

Xonra1 votes

Janna is less the problem and more it was sort of an odd mix of all the things needed that she already had. Peel, two ways to proc ardent, etc. She DID need a nerf, but gutting is a bit of an overreaction. Same with Lulu. Also won't actually fix the problem just make champ pools smaller.

Also don't really agree with just pick an assassin and "shit on mages". If that was easy to do people would be doing it already. The popular mages also win into most of the mid assassins so that doesn't really work unless you just do nothing but roam and actually get fed that way.

Top DOESN'T matter a lot more when you pick a split pusher unless you have other winning lanes. Split pushing doesn't work when you push up then you just get ganked and that's that. Unless you have other lanes also putting pressure, it doesn't matter if you have the best split push champ in the game. Your split push can be easily negated right now without help. Also, most split pushers right now don't exactly win lane against some of the other popular top lanes and if they fall behind they are bad at team fighting.

Random Task1 votes

The runes are definitely shaking it up on the pbe. It's no question that runes reforge will change the game. It's literally taking the system that's been used for years and replacing it with a "streamlined" version + stat changes.

I havent been on the pbe since the second balance of the new runes but there was a power shift towards burstier champs, away from the adcs.

Even with that, live gives a better look at everything.

It will change things but preseason is the ultimate tell in which way and how heavy of an impact.

GigglesO1 votes

{quoted}

By current meta, I mean the one where bot side is FAR too important to how a game goes.

Lowering damage and (mobility on hyper carries) across the board so that tanks have more room to flex their tankiness, assasins can function, and adc's are forced to kite rather than just stand there and be godlike.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Ardent nerfs have shown good results, marksmen have been dropping down virtually overnight, they and enhaners actually, aggressive supports have moved back up.

Next would be static shiv, lifesteal could also need a touch down due to synergy with crit.

Small tank nerfs have also served to revive the old king of the jungle LeeSin from his slumber, with the fall of Sejuani he proceeded to kick down the doors of his tomb and went out to retake the top spot.

I still want Twitch nerfed even if he isn't really OP without Ardent.

Oelyk1 votes

I personally Want someone to buff Cleanse items....

Edit: or summoner spell cleanse...

Athenes Lulu1 votes

The problem right now:

  1. Tanks are pretty strong on their own, games are often decided by whichever team has more tanks, especially in pro play.
  2. Supports have too many defense mechanisms --> ADCs being able to be just as strong since they benefit from the support protection the most
  3. Other DPS classes can't effectively take down tanks as well as ADCs do
  4. When a tank is ahead while a DPS is not, the team with weaker DPS loses because they can't kill tanks on time.

And all these are pretty much responses of the damage creep/massively increased amounts of burst. We are not in a pure "ADC meta" because then junglers and toplaners would be strictly ADCs as well, which isn't necessarily the case right now.

Buffing other DPS classes would only enter another cycle of the lethality meta and another tank meta, and I don't think we want another one of that. To start off, we should:

  • Rework/tone down crit so it becomes more sustained damage focused, instead of burst.
  • Tone down price and stats of items so that getting a lead isn't the end of the world, and that trying to catch up from behind isn't a pain to deal with either-- basically reduce snowballing and more chance of comebacks
  • Give burst DPS classes slightly better options to deal with tanks, OR nerf tank itemization. Once a tank gets some set of items before DPS does, the tank side will win no matter what, with very little chance to catch up. Similar to the point above.

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