I know I'm low in rank so my normals are standard shit, but what kind of jungler leaves bot lane alone and never comes to take dragon before the 15 minute mark? Even if you didn't want to gank bot you should still come for dragon. #shity-junglers
Edit: jungler main down votes?
Dreadlocks4 votesIt's ignorance like this that lose games. Jungler isn't the only one responsible for dragon control. It is a team effort. Even if the jungler is around it doesnt mean he can take drag every time. A lot plays a role as to whether drag can be taken or even contested. Is your team ahead, how far behind is the team, are mid and bot lane pushed into their side of the map or is it towards yours. Stop being so close minded, chances are you and your bot lane partner fed like hell and are shoved in under turret or already lost the turret and therefore lack the control to even do dragon safely.
Occams Raiser1 votesSO you believe a jungler never has to go bot because it is a team effort to control dragon. If you go bot you have the option to take drag or gank or both. But you feel that the game would still be equally efficient if you did none of those options and let (i assume) the bot lane take care of drag and hope that the other jungler plays by the same philosophy.
No pressure on bot lane no drag control on the part of the jungler unless helped by mid or bot. Maybe I am misunderstanding you or I am using drag control too loosely. Maybe we are not thinking of the same phase of the game.
CHANCES are a lot of your arguments are old, about being pushed or feeders. We all seem to be use to using the worse case scenario to make a point. Par for the course I suppose.
Dreadlocks1 votesI'm saying you don't understand the game well enough to say its the junglers fault.
Paroe1 votesI'm saying you don't understand the game well enough to say its the junglers fault.
Uhm... If bot lane, arguably the most important lane in the game, is being camped by an enemy jungler then yes it most definitely IS the allied junglers fault for not controlling objectives properly.
Dreadlocks1 votesAnother ignorant player.
Occams Raiser1 voteseasy to throw around insults on the internet. everyone does it.
Dreadlocks1 votesI'm not insulting you on purpose, i'm just stating facts..
Occams Raiser1 votesYou need a logic or philosophy class so you know the difference between opinion and fact. You are confused about what makes a good argument as well.
Occams Raiser1 votesyou did not refute my points.
Dreadlocks1 votesI already did, read the first post.
BluePolarizer2 votesIt depends on game state, how much gold and exp the two junglers have, the compositions of the bot lane and how pushed it is.
I am not contesting a dragon with 
against 
when we both have smite upgrade and boots, for instance. It also doesn't matter that Lee is camping bot; what is Shyvana going to do about it with no CC and being farm reliant, but having a bot lane with multiple escapes? At best you can stop the gank at the cost of your own gold and so 3 champs fall behind instead of just 2, at worse you feed the enemy an extra kill. Better in this case to rely on the laners to escape.
Paroe1 votesIt depends on game state, how much gold and exp the two junglers have, the compositions of the bot lane and how pushed it is.
I am not contesting a dragon with
Preassure doesnt mean you have to gank. Showing your presence is, alone, much more than enough. If the enemy jungler ganks botlane 5 times unsuccessfully, and you havent seen your jungler once, who has more pressure? If the enemy jungler goes for dragon five minutes in, and you know about it, your job as the jungler is to contest it. regardless of whether or not you do it successfully, just BEING THERE is more than enough.
Occams Raiser1 votesAh yes. you know what I am talking about. no one else seems to. all these binary arguments.
BluePolarizer1 votespressure is not free; it costs gold if you have uncleared camps. It also carries the very real risk of dying if you are against a strong bot lane if your lane is weak but safe. If you are against an early game jungler like Lee Sin, he wants to keep you down and play in a low gold environment centered around laning. You as Shyvana don't since he falls off and you don't. You want a high gold environment centered around teamfighting. It's all situational.
Paroe1 votespressure is not free; it costs gold if you have uncleared camps. It also carries the very real risk of dying if you are against a strong bot lane if your lane is weak but safe. If you are against an early game jungler like Lee Sin, he wants to keep you down and play in a low gold environment centered around laning. You as Shyvana don't since he falls off and you don't. You want a high gold environment centered around teamfighting. It's all situational.
But what is the role of the jungler? To control objectives and help the laners.
Generally speaking, toplane is an island. This makes a junglers job to flit between mid and bot, occasionally going top if the enemy jungler decides to make toplane their raison d'etre for that game. Part of your job as a jungler IS to contest objectives. It IS to gank lanes that are behind.
Pressure doesnt mean kills whenever you hit the lane, it just means showing your face in a threatening manner. When i jungle as warwick, my definition of "gank" is farm till 6 and then ult the primary threat of whatever lane is behind then run away. I always keep an eye on scuttlebugs and my two river objectives, and if i have the time, i try and go after my enemy junglers buffs.
there are LOTS of ways to jungle besides farm jungling and cleaning up. Likewise it isnt the junglers job to win your lane for you, though. a lot of people dont or never realize this, and its why pressure is as simple as showing your face now and again. (Also your support should always have the waiting bush warded, and once they get the sighstone, dragon should always be warded as well)
BluePolarizer1 votesit is never this general. Also, if you are burning ult for just "pressure" as Warwick do note that you are worthless until the ult is back up. Warwick also farms slowly, meaning that if he misses camps, he can't make them up as fast as AOE junglers.
I hate to bring rank into it but I'm a plat 1 jungle main and I got here with my jungling philosophy. You may see success with other jungling philosophies. Hell, I'm not even the most extreme one; look at Trick2g. He is the most extreme example of super selfish junglers, and he's diamond 1.
Incognonymous2 votesOh man, I've won many games from behind purely because of dragon control. I absolutely prioritize it as a jungler, though of course some are better at securing it than others. Team reliant junglers have to have backup, which can be hard to find in this game of shit-for-brains teammates.
Occams Raiser1 votesindeed.
Woodakoodashooda1 votesThere are only a number of jungle champs that can solo dragon early and even then it is an enormous risk because the jungle can end up dying to the enemy jg who then proceeds to finish dragon themselves. So, if the jungle does not take dragon while mid and/or bot is occupied with the enemy then they are either clearing camps or analyzing the map to determine which enemy is the most vulnerable to a gank.
When most or all camps are cleared, the jg will most likely have to B in order to restore health lost to monsters before they can even consider assisting a lane.
A jg cannot always gank a pushed lane given several factors including, but not limited to, wards, ally health and resources, and their own current level as opposed to the enemy’s combined levels. No matter which way Riot slices the jg cake, jg will usually have a difficult time staying on level with allies and enemies alike.
Dragon control usually goes to whichever team secures the most kills early. When forced into a defensive position, the jg will often be forced to roam to prevent continued feeding from allies. Farming becomes a secondary objective and sometimes impossible. Taking dragon will then require a team effort and the jg will have to face the harsh reality that one or more of their allies cannot make it in time to the dragon; so, the judgment call has to be made “better let the enemy have dragon then dragon plus 2 or 3 kills”.
Vision is always imperative when taking dragon and the jg usually does not pack a lot of wards for the job, often relying on the support to keep a ward on or behind it to alert when the enemy is going for it. But many “supports” absolutely refuse to purchase vision and then proceed to blame everyone else for the number of deaths that have occurred in or near their lane (that is a subject for another discussion).
When things really hit the fan and your team does win a fight for the dragon, champions may not be healthy enough to secure it and are forced to B. By the time the team is reassembled, the enemy is alive and ready for a rematch. When the jg and/or allies do manage to secure dragon with enemy champions nearby, half the time allies refuse to back off and proceed to die to healthy enemies OR the enemy manages to close the distance before anyone can retreat at all.
Exactly what is your main position that makes you so sore toward junglers?
Are you top? Then perhaps you should have brought teleport so as to port onto a ward when the team needs help in taking dragon.
Are you mid? Part of your job is roaming. Instead of whining about how the jg isn’t doing their job, make sure you’re doing yours.
Are you bot lane? Chances are that the jg is going to need protection from you against invasion as much as you need protection against ganks. Keep your side of the map warded and a good jg will help you as much as you help them.
Occams Raiser1 votesBot lane. What you say makes sense, and was well thought out, without insults. ... You sure you are a LOL player?