I'm not bying sight stone anymore. Support going on strike.

Occams Raiser··71 votes·4,825 views

Up grade your trinkets. Most of us are bronze and silver. If you won't take a more active role in maintaining vision I am not dropping an extra 750 gold to pick up slack unless I am playing a support that scales nice off of pure health (Naut). It would be different if everyone had a upgraded sweepers. I would gladly buy sightstone. If you don't have 250, I don't have 250.

Going on strike. Don't worry, I'll still pull your ass out the fire.

183 Comments

Phife17 votes

everyone scales off of health... its your health bar.

Marthian14 votes

150 HP is not a lot for squishy supports.

Stonington1 votes

It's actually a shit ton considering early game it'll increase your hp by 20-30%.

Occams Raiser1 votes

Or you could buy Fiendish Codex and get in someone's ass.

Phife2 votes

sightstone = 800g (first back usually gets it) fiendish codex= 820g (gives you 10 more ap than amp tome.)

Occams Raiser1 votes

The comparison is between fiendish codex and sightstone. What to buy on your first back.

Phife3 votes

why would u get fiendish codex.... you're not supposed to be spamming your abilities, you're supposed to engage on possible capitalization's

50000000000000002 votes

If you're getting poke damage off, fiendish codex is a good idea.

Occams Raiser2 votes

It depends on the champ I am playing. If I play Naut I don't build it. But if I am Nami I will. Sometimes I play a carry champ like Cass but that is in normals usually. But I do some times build it for some cdr and damage if we are winning lane or not getting ganked. A lot of junglers just aren't worth worrying about in bronze silver. They are predictable to the point you can wait to upgrade trinkets.

Phife1 votes

#StayBronze

Occams Raiser2 votes

I forgive you for this attempt at shaming. I will never understand it considering almost everyone is bronze or silver. Hyperbole, before you quote me percentages. The majority of players consider themselves casual. Gold 1 and higher are the true competitors by sheer time played alone. That ain't a big bunch.

Phife1 votes

im diamond, you mad?

Occams Raiser2 votes

So forgiveness equates to anger and spite in your world? I know too much about you.

Phife1 votes

What the fuck are you talking about, yoda? you're argueing that fiendish is better than sightstone. when reality is if you get more than 8 wards down in a game sightstone is the most efficient item in the game.

Whereas fiendish codex gives you 10 more ap than amp tome and 10% cdr (which btw if you're a support you should already have 10-15% base cdr from utility / offensive tree and 5 % from runes.

that 820g you're wasting is better used elsewhere, if i see you in my champ select im dodging cause our bot lane will lose.

DrinkMoreWhiskey2 votes

{quoted}

what you arent considering is the possibility that buying that codex results in you getting a kill you otherwise wouldn't have. Now you are up 450G between you and the adc, have gained an exp advantage and they also are probably losing cs as a result. theres much more to be analyzed.

What's more likely to end up in someone dying that extra 10ap or you not having ward coverage because you skipped site stone and got ganked.

Stonington2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V4nqBTmi,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-04T01:35:25.338+0000)

Or you could buy Fiendish Codex and get in someone's ass.

Why not just get 2 doran rings and really get in someone's ass?

Stonington37 votes

Not Soraka. She has antisynergy with hp items.

Phife3 votes

why are you playing soraka?

Stonington31 votes

Why not?

Phife1 votes

because karthus is shit.

50000000000000008 votes

????? How does this make any sense? You don't have to play Soraka in order to counter Karthus.

Apollocliptic5 votes

{quoted}

????? How does this make any sense? You don't have to play Soraka in order to counter Karthus.

Soraka is a natural counter to him though :P Troll that global ulti

FastAsHeck4 votes

karthus player here, its actually not as bad as you think... the plan is simple, soraka cant ult while dead, but you can :P

Sinister Snail1 votes

{quoted}

karthus player here, its actually not as bad as you think... the plan is simple, soraka cant ult while dead, but you can :P

This. And Karth's ult outscales Soraka's pretty hard, mostly because he gets solo lane gold and xp.

FastAsHeck1 votes

also 1000 damage per enemy is impossible to heal even with bot ult and w from soraka

Occams Raiser2 votes

You know damn well what I meant.

Rand0mH3r0X13 votes

I never buy sight stone as mage support. It's so much more expensive than everybody upgrading their trinkets. I'd rather the team pitch in to buy wards if they want them.

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I got a hate reply... so here's my response: Someone wanted me to do math. ( Beware of the following section! tl;dr below. )

With the trinket, you have one ward that views the surrounding area for 180sec ( 1min ) and refills every 180sec ( 1min ) and only can have a max of 1. With upgraded trinket, you can store 2 wards that refill at 60sec ( 1min ) and last 180sec ( 3min ) So it's possible to have three active wards with upgraded trinket. That said:

gp=gold p=people w=wards

( 250gp x 5p ) = 1250gp for ( 3w x 5p ) = 15 possible active wards. ( 800gp x 1p ) = 800gp for ( 3w x 1p + 1w x 4p) = 7 possible active wards. ( 1250gp / 15w ) = 83.33gp per ward ( 800gp / 7w )= 114.3gp per ward.

Upgrading trinkets has an effeciency of 37% in cost per ward versus sightstone!

What does it cost when the support doesn't get sightstone to be back at sightstone level? Given: 7 possible active wards (cause team never upgrades) for 800gp

You need: Two people, the support and jg maybe, to upgrade their trinkets. ( 250gp x 2p ) = 500gp for (3w x 2p + 1w x 3p ) = 9 Possible active wards _See that? I just squeezed out two extra active wards and saved 300gp over sightstone. _

tl;dr **Upgrading Vision Trinkets actually is cost effective per ward. **

Someone will make the argument that they are free, so:

7 wards can monitor the same one spot for ( 7w x 180sec ) = 1260sec ( 21min ). Cellular Service Provider math says that we pay 800gp for 1260sec ( 21min ) of vision time. So 800gp means we pay ( 800gp / 1260sec ) = 0.6349gp per second of vision. There may be times where a single ward may not be up.

15 wards can monitor the same one spot for ( 15w x 180sec ) = 2700sec ( 45min ). Using Cellular Service Provider math again, we pay 1250gp for 2700sec ( 45min ) of vision time. So 1250gp means that we pay ( 1250gp / 2700sec ) = 0.4629gp per second of vision. You have vision to last the whole game!

Upgrading trinkets has an efficiency of 37% in cost per second of vision compared to a sightstone alone!

tl;dr Upgrading Vision Trinkets means more vision time and is still cost effective per second of vision.

Consider the risks of having less than 1800 health at max rank and being and easy champion to chase. Support doesn't roam jg for cs, doesn't switch lanes to gank, support just supports. Support has to roam to ward and stay with carry. It just makes more sense for the team to chip in to the cost and work of warding. More possible vision, less cost per ward, and less danger for the squishiest least damaging person on the team.

Sightstone costs 800gp to build. That equates to 10.66 Vision Wards. A better strategy, if vision is a top priority, is on first recall: 2 vision wards, 1 pink, amplifying tomb/ruby, two health pots and a mana pot. That way I build damage, have something for the late game, have sustain, and still have vision. It just makes more sense for 800gp.

With a maximum of 37% efficiency of upgraded trinkets over a sightstone, it leaves a lot of play room for someone to not get sightstone, get oracles, pink ward, regular wards, or whatever. Consider the number of Active wards of the team with variation; active wards for the team and the effectiveness of them is hard to imagine without some chart or table. There's just too many dimensions when considering active wards, so please just accept that sightstone for vision is not effective and that is the reason for a meaningless +150 health...

No, I'm not a math major either. I'm just a Junior MechE. :/ Just ask me if you want me to do a relation instead of block math.

**Ultimate tl;dr: Upgrading vision trinkets is 37% more efficient for vision versus a sightstone alone. **


Jus Clownin10 votes

800 gold versus 250x5?... Im not a math major.. but i think you should recheck those numbers.

Trinket upgrade - Must be level 9

Sight stone - usually have by level 5.

I forsee many crying bot lanes about getting ganked in your future.

Black Star 12993 votes

Or maybe you could buy wards before reaching level 9, and then get that upgrade?

If you buy 7 or less wards before reaching level 9, you still make more $$$ than getting sightstone at level 5. Most likely, youre not gonna reach 7 wards. And you could use that money to buy other stats your support needs! Like AP and CDR!

And 800 vs 1250 for 3 vs 27 active wards?

I think 450 extra gold is worth that 24 extra possible wards on map.

BringYourOwnPuma4 votes

You wont have 27 active wards with upgraded trinket and no sight stone. you will at most have 10, provided you dont purchase extras.

The gap between level 5--9 would probably take 2 if not 3 wards to cover. Thats another 150g PER PERSON.

Also - not everyone is going to go warding trinket. People do get sweeper.

Im not saying people shouldn't upgrade their trinkets. But that doesnt mean a support shouldnt have sight stone, either. Get a sight stone and switch to sweeper. It clears wards and provides you with extra gold. If no one has sweeper thats going to make clearing wards at objectives very difficult.

Gavran5 votes

People do get Sweeper and people need to get Sweeper. Upgraded totems are rad right now but they hardly invalidate Sightstone.

Occams Raiser1 votes

It is one extra ward that you need to back to recharge vs trinkets recharging. If everyone chips in we win if you put it all on me its not my fault for our loss. upgrading trinks is just a sign of solidarity.

Gavran3 votes

Everyone should upgrade trinks, yes. That means getting at least 2 sweepers on the team. Some peeps dig a blue trinket. Also you're completely ignoring the value of sightstone's charges. Ward baron, they sweep. Ward baron again. Get the steal.

Occams Raiser2 votes

trinks get 2 wards that comeback on the field. Sight gets 3 that you have to back for. It takes a slot and cost more.

BringYourOwnPuma4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V4nqBTmi,comment-id=00030001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-04T09:24:24.924+0000)

trinks get 2 wards that comeback on the field. Sight gets 3 that you have to back for. It takes a slot and cost more.

Trinkets have a long cooldown and only a max of 2 charges. Sightstone has 4 charges, no cooldown, and recharges to full every time you go back.

50000000000000001 votes

Each ward costs 75. Trinket upgrade costs 250. Placing 4 wards make the trinket cost efficient.

Also, everyone warding (which is up to 15 wards at a time) compared to only the support (which is only up to 3 wards) is a huge difference, and is definitely worth it.

Gavran3 votes
  1. nobody has optimal placement and uptime on their trinket ward, it's literally impossible you don't have that kind of freedom to just be whereever the hell on the map you want at any given time.

  2. warding totem, especially if you're trying to use it on cooldown to keep 3 wards up, can only ward proactively. sightstone lets you do stuff like "oh, you guys want to take baron? let me ward every possible approach real quick". This is also invaluable pretty much any time your team moves through the enemy jungle for any reason.

  3. your hypothetical team can't clear wards. my team with two sweepers removes the 2-4 wards that are actually relevant to what we're doing and your five trinkets all together are only telling you "we were here, and now we're either taking baron or getting ready to murder you because you think we are". meanwhile, when you try to take baron, we can watch long enough to gauge your dps, see who gets low and vulnerable, and otherwise take a lot of time to plan and execute the perfect engage to steal it and ace you.

edit: and by the way, my team upgrades their trinkets too. we just don't gimp ourselves by not buying a sightstone and only buying yellow trinkets.

50000000000000002 votes

What I mean is that trinket upgrade is almost always worth it. I used 5 yellow upgrades as an extreme example of what can happen.

Sightstone is definitely better (in terms of vision) than trinket upgrade as long as you go back to base every so often to refresh wards. Also, trinket upgrade lets you hold up to 2 wards at a time. 2 people having it will let you have 4 wards+wards from sightstone around dragon/baron. If there are 3 people with yellow trinket, that's up to 6 wards that can be saved for objective control.

Occams Raiser1 votes

You think I won't buy sight stone on a team of sweepers? Come on, man. You know why I wrote this post.

Champion Skin2 votes

Olden days with the support placing 30 wards across the map and the rest of them team maybe 0-3 wards And the only items supports had was a philostone and boots maybe also Kage's

FirstSergeantBim1 votes

Janna item 2049 item 3117 item 2047 That's how I legit carried games as Janna back in the day. Her global move-speed buff was so good too. Get that Sightstone, Boots of Mobility and Oracle's. Then start cruising through the jungle, baby. Nobody could catch you, so you could single-handedly provide the entire map with vision while also quickly and safely denying the enemy's vision. Best way to solo carry normals ever .

Champion Skin2 votes

The times when Oracles lasted until death... Oh damn that was so good being able to constantly clear all wards as long as you didn't die (Janna is good at not dying lol XD)

Phife1 votes

your math is forgetting the fact that you should all be upgrading trinkets and the support / jungler (sometimes) should be getting sightstone.

Its not inefficient, its the fact that you should have 3 people with sweepers rather than wards.

Byakuya Kuchiki3 votes

ADCs are supposed to get the blue one jungle and support get red trinket and top and mid get yellow one sooo only 2 people should have a lot of wards out besides really high elo where they know where to ward and in LCS

Lucentile11 votes

{quoted}

ADCs are supposed to get the blue one jungle and support get red trinket and top and mid get yellow one sooo only 2 people should have a lot of wards out besides really high elo where they know where to ward and in LCS

If you have 75 gold and are walking out of the base without a ward, you're making a mistake.

Byakuya Kuchiki8 votes

2 pots GG i have 5 gold

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

You . . .

Occams Raiser5 votes

I don't even.....

killd0zer1 votes

Cus you suck

Occams Raiser1 votes

....

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