@Stashu Thought on Cassiopeia passive

ShadowParker·Nov 28, 2014·13 votes·6,098 views

This post, isn't at all about any of her moves, it's not a hate thread, it's not complaining about her rework. It's solely about the passive. Tell me your thoughts. Here's my questions.

I like the idea, but it's not working whatsoever, wouldn't you say this would be better on a new champion?

After you started working on a new rework(Which is now complete and being pushed to live) Why insist on keeping the passive?

How does her new passive better fit in thematically vs her old passive?

Why do you refuse to change it after so much dislike has been placed on the new passive not getting the job done?

If you were to change it, what are you looking at as new possibilities for a passive?

Would you consider bringing back Deadly Cadence and working with that?

Thanks in advance for your time, I know that people are being.. hasty on the new rework without most of them actually knowing whether or not it works, but I would just like to know what your thoughts are.

21 Comments

RiotRiot StashuNov 28, 201418 votes

Sure, I'll take some time to answer these.

I like the idea, but it's not working whatsoever, wouldn't you say this would be better on a new champion?

Sometimes we put mechanics on a kit to achieve some sort of gameplay related goal, like fitting into a pattern, encouraging a playstyle, or solving some other problem, and sometime we do it because they're just super cool. The Aspect of the Serpent mechanic, a slow-build stacking passive which gives rewards at certain points, was thought to be pretty much all of these for Cassiopeia. It emphasized the identity we were going for, encouraged interaction in lane, and had a promise of being really exciting. It's accomplished a lot of the things it was meant to, but it fell miserably flat on the cool aspect and ended up feeling more like shackles than anything else. The idea of dramatically growing in power over game time through play is a cool one, but our execution was underwhelming. I want to get her into a more balanced state to truly eliminate any power variables before conclusively stating anything concrete about how the passive in its current state could feel (god that was wordy, sorry about that), but yeah it seems like it could use some work. That said, in a fully realized version of the passive, yeah I think it fits on Cassiopeia. If it never gets there, then no, certainly not.

After you started working on a new rework(Which is now complete and being pushed to live) Why insist on keeping the passive?

Some of the above, but, basically, me and many of the other designers saw the promise in the passive but felt that a number of surrounding variables (power levels, weak poisons, clunky stacking mechanisms) were keeping it from actually feeling cool. We hoped to fix these surrounding problems to let the cool parts express themselves. We'll see how that goes. I suspect it's not quite enough yet and that the mechanics could still use some work, but our changes for 4.21 will definitely do some good for Cassiopeia and Cassiopeia players.

How does her new passive better fit in thematically vs her old passive?

I'm not really sure where Deadly Cadence fit in at all thematically :<. Mechanically it made a lot of sense to me (Cassiopeia should be empowered to cast a lot of spells), though there were some realllly weird incentives there (like casting at the ground to keep it up, even while no enemies were around). But Snake Mage has little to do with rhythm (cadence) or reduced mana costs.

Ultimately, for a fun play experience, gameplay comes before thematics, but when the two tie-in some real magic happens, and that should always be the goal. To me, Aspect of the Serpent has a few more thematic hooks than Deadly Cadence. Through poisoning her foes, Cassiopeia becomes more and more adept at wielding the curse that befell her once normal body. She's driven to poison enemies, and as she does, she unlocks the potential of her new powers. This may not be the perfect marriage of thematics and gameplay, but I think it stands up pretty well.

Why do you refuse to change it after so much dislike has been placed on the new passive not getting the job done?

I feel like I've answered this above :p

If you were to change it, what are you looking at as new possibilities for a passive?

Cassiopeia has a few really cool patterns.

Her fishing with Q's pattern, to get that MS boost for E follow-ups
Her on-the-fly kiting pattern of Q/E/E/Q/E/E, using W and R as necessary
Her turn-and-burn pattern, where she hits an E or two than lands a fat Q and walks away

So, likely something to encourage one or all of these.

Would you consider bringing back Deadly Cadence and working with that?

Ehhhh maybe. I had some gameplay issues with that one but there was some cool stuff there. So maybe if Aspect truly doesn't work out, and some form of Deadly Cadencerealllly accomplished what I described in the above section, then maybe, though I find it unlikely.

Thanks in advance for your time, I know that people are being.. hasty on the new rework without most of them actually knowing whether or not it works, but I would just like to know what your thoughts are.

No problem! I'm definitely not going to be able to answer all of these types of posts, but I'll take time to explain my thinking here and there. Hope this helps!

Stez007Nov 28, 20146 votes

There is no gameplay in her passive. It's all waiting for thresholds. Changing how you get to the thresholds does not change the fact that there are thresholds. Thresholds are not fun. We've told you this a dozen times.

This, this and even more of this.

Some alternative passives:

Her original passive (solves her mana issues, explained below) X less damage from poisoned targets (some more defense so she isn't as unbearably squishy) Each tick of poison on a champion/use of Twin Fang on a poisoned champion heals Cass for X (or gives her a shield; fang could heal for double; better sustain in lane and dueling survivability) Reduce her ulti's cooldown 1s for each X seconds an enemy champion is poisoned (better defense later in the game; definitely my least favorite)

Could probably think of more.

Other changes she needs:

Miasma deals 150% damage to minions (or, conversely, to champions) making it a better farming tool (or better harassing tool)

Reduce her mana costs across the board and remove the mana regen on E. Better yet, do so while restoring her passive (which would make her a better lategame carry, since she'd have the mana reserves to spam without needing to prioritize RoA/Seraphs)

Encouraging the Cass player to last hit with E is silly and puts her in a LOT of danger. It should never have been emphasized in the first place, and it should be abolished. She needs to be able to farm reliably with Q and W if you want her to survive the lane phase; getting into E range to last hit caster creeps is quite literally begging to be jumped on and killed.

ScampyNov 28, 201416 votes

The fact that you're ignoring massive outcry about how we hate the passive, simply because you think players don't know what they want, is ENORMOUSLY insulting. You haven't even given us an avenue to share our ideas about what a better passive could be, but you're convinced that the absolute last thing to be reworked should be the passive.

We may not see eye to eye on Cass, but people are calling for your removal from the rework and I'm the only guy saying no that isn't being downvoted below the threshold. You're not a bad guy, Stashu, but if you want everyone to give you the benefit of the doubt, then you need to give it to us.

Make a passive suggestions thread. Is that unreasonable to ask for, after how long this has gone on? If nothing comes of it then so be it, but at least you're showing that you give a damn what we think.

Also I'm totally forum haunting you BooOOoOOOOooo...

RiotRiot StashuNov 28, 201415 votes

Also I'm totally forum haunting you BooOOoOOOOooo...

Lol I noticed-- but seriously, I do appreciate how much you care about Cassiopeia/telling me when it feels like your voice hasn't been heard.

Anyway, yeah, I haven't made that sort of thread. That said, in this thread there was actually quite a lot of brainstorming on the passive, and I asked things like, "What would you want from the passive at that point in the game?" and generally just tried to keep the brainstorm going. I got a pretty good idea of what players wanted based on what was suggested, but also what was upvoted and what was downvoted haha. So, that's mostly why. I also want to see what people have to say about 4.21 before making any moves like that. Lastly, I know a suggestions thread seems harmless, but even if a suggestion there gets really highly upvoted, there's no guarentee that we could put it in the game, and that breeds a lot of disappointment and frustration that I'd like to avoid (I think I've had my fill of that for a bit). But yeah, that's a move I'd definitely make if we decide for sure that the cool parts of Aspect are really just unsalvageable, as everybody fears.

ScarletRainNov 28, 20143 votes

Maybe start working on a new passive while you wait and use that as practice/base for another champion?

What if her passive gained stacks every time she dealt damage to an enemy champion. Individual ticks of each of her poison, her autoattacks, everything. It would help build it up a bit faster and would help push her back towards a lane bully feeling. Although her numbers would need adjusting so she doesn't immediately crumble from retaliation.

5G8Nri0B54Nov 28, 201411 votes

The question then is, why does a poisoner have a power-up passive rather than a debilitating one?

ScarletRainNov 28, 20141 votes

Maybe her curse was mostly in shape and the venom is/was weak until she got used to using it? Though that to me just means she should be gated purely by levels rather than how often you had poison going, but hey i'm just trying to work with this guy and hope something changes to make cassi less... how she is live.

If it were entirely up to me i'd probably go full CertainlyT and give her some sort of lunge like ability. Make her more a snakelady than a poisonmage, but i don't even play cass so i wouldn't even pretend i know how she should be.

Serpents EmbraceNov 28, 20147 votes

That's quite reaching, much like Stashu's reasons for why they haven't scraped the damn Aspect passive after three months of miserable failure.

ScampyNov 28, 20147 votes

I don't really agree that it's all that dangerous. Honestly it should've been the first step in this whole process.

Regardless, I do know you're trying. For what it's worth, I really do think you have it in you to make Cass super awesome (just not with this passive holy geez). I just want our snake lady to be the best she can be.

Whatever happened to her getting micro DoTs like Viktor used to have? Regardless of what her passive is, that'd be fun to have.

FlemmanNov 28, 20142 votes

well, when I think about it, the current passive need only one thing to work, double the number for the stack and the passive breakpoint but let her gain 1 stack for very unit being kill in max 1 sec after her poison vanish.

I don't know why, but seeing those minion escape poison to be last it by me (or my creep/friendly champ) just 0.1 sec later is kinda frustrating

chumblerNov 29, 20142 votes

Also I'm totally forum haunting you BooOOoOOOOooo...

Lol I noticed-- but seriously, I do appreciate how much you care about Cassiopeia/telling me when it feels like your voice hasn't been heard.

Anyway, yeah, I haven't made that sort of thread. That said, in this thread there was actually quite a lot of brainstorming on the passive, and I asked things like, "What would you want from the passive at that point in the game?" and generally just tried to keep the brainstorm going. I got a pretty good idea of what players wanted based on what was suggested, but also what was upvoted and what was downvoted haha. So, that's mostly why. I also want to see what people have to say about 4.21 before making any moves like that. Lastly, I know a suggestions thread seems harmless, but even if a suggestion there gets really highly upvoted, there's no guarentee that we could put it in the game, and that breeds a lot of disappointment and frustration that I'd like to avoid (I think I've had my fill of that for a bit). But yeah, that's a move I'd definitely make if we decide for sure that the cool parts of Aspect are really just unsalvageable, as everybody fears.

Must not have been a whole lot of brains in that storm. Or any at all.

This passive cannot be saved. It is not and never will be cool, and the fact that you don't understand why her old passive was actually really well designed is telling. Revert this entire rework that is based on a complete lie.

5G8Nri0B54Nov 28, 201414 votes

I will openly admit.............Deadly Cadence was a bad Passive. Gameplay wise? Completely necessary! But it's just really boring as a Passive. Not Veigar bad mind you! But bad.

However, thematically, I thought it was trying to tie in to her identity as the rich daughter of a high ranking official. In this case, she's your spoilt daughter who is free to spend spend spend and throw away perfectly good stuff at will. In short, a very decadent life-style.

Deadly Cadence, thus, would have that personality of hers, but instead of money, she expends her magic to recklessly food the battlefield with poison and....thousands of fangs larger than her torso...have I ever told you how I found her E to be dumb in general?

With that said. As much as I dislike the "growing power" passive on her as it pushes her into a hyper-carry position and it just plain doesn't fit her character at all (she is not Syndra or Khazix !), I'm glad she has something other than a boring mana-passive that makes Lissandra's look engaging.

What I'm not glad about is...well...read the bolded part above. Being based on milestones also serves to make it extra unsatisfying.

TL;DR - glad it's been replaced, not so glad about the replacement and how it isn't compensated for

CuixNov 28, 20146 votes

I'm not really sure where Deadly Cadence fit in at all thematically :<.

It totally didn't. You're right. That doesn't mean you replace it with something equally weird. The point of a rework is to notably improve in terms of theme, mechanics, and strengths/weaknesses. Similarly, her play patterns around E were always dull and bad, but only okay with a Q/W which could let you ignore her E most of the time. That doesn't mean you put all her power into an unchanged E.

Her fishing with Q's pattern, to get that MS boost for E follow-ups

Fishing for an opportunity is sorta Cass. She is very opportunistic, but I usually see her as more the type to make opportunities than one to just hope something eventually works.

Her on-the-fly kiting pattern of Q/E/E/Q/E/E, using W and R as necessary

Stop trying to make her a short-range spam-cast skirmisher holy hell when are you going to address this.

Her turn-and-burn pattern, where she hits an E or two than lands a fat Q and walks away

This is good. I like this. Very Cass, very snake lady, very usable.

ShadowParkerNov 28, 20141 votes

@Stashu One more thing Stashu! Although this is completely irrelevant to the passive and cassiopeia's gameplay, I'm just curious as to what your thoughts are on her new in-game model and her new picture.

Would you say her new in-game model is better than her old one?

What are your thoughts on Cassiopeia's champion picture, what makes it better than her old one?

Does her new picture fit in thematically?

As well, is there any possible change that there might be a new picture? (Sorry, I personally liked the old picture better hehe.)

Thanks for your time! And I appreciate hearing your thoughts behind cassiopeia.

Kowe The EwokNov 28, 20143 votes

How about you add more bonuses to the passive? Currently it feels like you don't have a passive until 500 stacks are reached. More utility, or debuffs for the enemy.

Tbh. I think I'll always dislike it as long as it's sole purpose is just adding AP ratios (Increasing AP is the same as improving ratios)

E.g. bonuses to you poison.

It would be really cool if 75 stacks would reduce you opponents AD by 10. This way you could make lasthitting more easily. This would allow her to be a lane bully without being a killthreat.

FluppetsNov 28, 20141 votes

Can you please Clarify (yes/no is fine):

There are going to be Cassiopeia changes in the PBE, aimed at the 4.21 Live patch?
After assessing these (4.21) changes, are you planning on changing the passive?
No, only number tweaks.
Yes, change threshold bonuses based on feedback.
- ASAP (already have some ideas)
- With sufficient time and resources (long haul)
Yes, Fundamentally change the Passive * ASAP * Long haul
Are there any changes you are already thinking about for after 4.21 Live?
can you make a Pro/Con list for a passive that grants general stat bonuses (AP, CDR) vs specific bonuses(example: E lifesteal)
specifically wouldnt it be easier to balance and more clear to players if bonuses were ability-specific, rather than AP or CDR, which is applied to all abilities?

LongFur FoxNov 28, 20142 votes

Can you please Clarify (yes/no is fine):

I'm not a red but i can answer a few things since i read a lot of the posts:

There are going to be Cassiopeia changes in the PBE, aimed at the 4.21 Live patch?

There are changes on the pbe and they are supposed to go live at 4.21. After that there are going to be more changes (likely to her passive but nothing is confirmed)

After assessing these (4.21) changes, are you planning on changing the passive?

No, only number tweaks.

Yes, change threshold bonuses based on feedback.

ASAP (already have some ideas)

With sufficient time and resources (long haul)

Yes, Fundamentally change the Passive * ASAP * Long haul

As far as i can understand stashu is testing out a lot of things for her passive (not just different numbers/thresholds) and changing stacking to different things like rengar stacking is possible. If no good result can be found then the passive will likely be remade from scratch but this would be long haul.

Are there any changes you are already thinking about for after 4.21 Live?

can you make a Pro/Con list for a passive that grants general stat bonuses (AP, CDR) vs specific bonuses(example: E lifesteal)

specifically wouldnt it be easier to balance and more clear to players if bonuses were ability-specific, rather than AP or CDR, which is applied to all abilities?

Long post but stashu wrote some things on what he wanted for a passive and given these requirements it is not going to be easy to find the perfect passive. The post can be found here.

Again I am not a red so i still hope you get a reply from stashu but i hope this clarify things.

NiirhoNov 28, 20144 votes

I just bought Cass in the hopes that someday she'll achieve the rework she deserves. I feel bad for all the veteran Cass players who's suggestions and ideas have been largely ignored since this project began. It doesn't make sense to me to keep this boring, generic passive when a whole community of committed players have been adamantly expressing their discontent with it, for months (her low winrate and popularity are also evidence of this). Good luck guys, I hope you keep posting these topics until a solution is reached that satisfies everyone.

KevinDelMarrNov 28, 20144 votes

My biggest complaint with her passive right now is getting from 200 to 400 stacks. On live you feel good when you hit your marks. 75 is cool where 200 a little else but still feels pretty good. Then the grind happens. You're roaming so you don't get to farm creeps, you don't get to interact with enemy Champions. Every fight you go "I wish i Had 400 stacks right now" because you know how much it will do for you. You start to reach the 30, 35, 40 minute mark and you keep telling yourself "I want 400 stacks I want it I want it I want it!!" and you drive yourself crazy. Then you hit 400 stacks and go "Finally, if only I had gotten this 10 MINUTES AGO!!!" (Alright this got a little out of hand, but you get the idea)

This applies to other marks a little less, but still relevant. It's how it holds you back from the potential you want. You farm long enough to the point you want it to be over, to where you can stop making excuses about your true power and if you should have been doing better in fights. You feel great hitting those marks, but like a carrot on a stick you want to grab it right away. It's knowing you're fairly strong yet you could be stronger. 20 % higher AP ratios is big, and the extra CDR means you get to use a lot of Q's and be constantly throwing W's down in sieges.

On PBE having passive stack gain will go along way, provided you don't increase the 400 stack count much higher (anything over 40 minutes is really annoying). I think her power level is great, for the most part (sometimes you hit someone with 10 E's and they still don't die). And of course, running out of Mana because you're trying to do your job as a spammy mage is also annoying, try to keep something in place where you restore mana or reduce costs (this is where the Passive should come in).

EfficientDynamoDec 3, 20143 votes

My apologies if this idea has already been tossed out among the boards already, but here is an idea for a Cass passive:

Make each of her basic abilities deal poison (2/3 already do so, so little change required)
Code each poison as of a different type (different tooltip, applies damage separately, etc.)
Have each application of poison refresh the duration of the other types of poison already applied

This would keep the gameplay pattern of Cass keeping in a fight over time, as she is incentivized to keep on attacking in order to refresh the poisons she has applied. It also reinforces her identity as a poison mage. Obviously this might not work with the E refreshing on cast at a poisoned person, but it could synergize well with the additional poison damage it applies on the PBE version.

Alternatively, this utility could be unlocked at a certain level of stacks (under the current version where Cass must accumulate enough stacks to gain power). It even could be used to add stacks more quickly, since I believe at the moment you don't get any more rewards for poisoning more than 1 person in any given second. If poisons are treated as separate each could add a stack on their own. Therefore you would want to stack all 3 poisons on at once in order to gain poison stacks 3x as fast.

Thoughts and criticisms, LoL community and Stashu?

DevalutNov 30, 20142 votes

Any thoughts on completely remaking the passive?

I found she's very mana hungry late game, tear and chalice make a small difference but leave her as a small back line. I call her my little lawn mower, once she starts spewing, she runs out of gas fast.

If she's poisoned theme is poison? Leave it to poison! The satisfaction of hitting that fleeing brand with noxious blast only to think you missed, but indeed the words gleam on the screen from the fog of war "+300G"

That's a poison mage. The more you commit the more poisoned you get!

So how do we accomplish this? QWER stays the same in terms of damage maybe a small nerf to base damage, but ap ratio's are that pitiful "Hue hue hue rely on your passive for damage" as they were with aspect of the serpent.

But her passive is no longer grind fest nonsense, it's simply land your spells and deal some mumbo jumbo damage. Her basic spells deal their poison counterparts (q with it's three second ticker and W's as well.) but her passive gives an additional poison ticker. fulfilling her early & lategame by giving the power to the choices and decisions of the player. Instead of building for late game you're building for the current fight, be it level one or eighteen, the only difference being that you might have items or allies to slow/cc them to death while you stack em up!

So how does the passive work? Spell damage applies a poison debuff to the champion. (Yes throwing spectral snake teeth gives a poison effect.) Each enemy hit by this poison per second restores cassiopia's mana by X (+missing mana/some-clever-math) [This makes hitting a group of champions rewarding!, those who stand in your w restore your mana!] Clumps mean more dosh because you don't need to buy Tear or chalice EVERY GAME ANYMORE, Support cass becomes a little more viable.]

This poison starts out small, has a long duration (five seconds too much?) maybe 10 damage split within five seconds with (1% or even .05% of ap) so essentially 2 damage per second, holy shit dev the hell.

NO, this stacks, this is what spamming and being quick fingered rewards you when you fling your fangs like a master. EACH SPELL HIT STACKS THIS That means 10 becomes 40 which becomes 90 which becomes 250, because you use your spells and shit gets done.

So creaming a tank with 10 twin fangs will not only feel powerful, reliable, and neat to watch as he slowly melts, it's something to strive for! "How much damage can I get this time?" "I wonder how much damage I can get once I get deathcap" "How fast will brand melt when I shove this fang in his face!"

All this because now there is no worry if you're late to the late game because you couldn't stack your passive, or spent dry by the time the enemy ad carry gets stunned because your ap ratios are so low and mana costs are too high. Cassiopeia becomes a bloody poison chemical slithering snake with once heck of bite.

Another problem remains "how do we build outside of maxing Twinfang first?" Well... -Make W(miasma) an ammo system, less slow less damage, but allows for multiple aoe control and more passive stacking (hell maybe if you stack the miasmas they get stronger?) -Remove Mana restore from E, the mana from the passive is covered. [This gives the player a choice "Do I want damage by maxing Twinfang, a reliable poke with Noxious blast, or control with Miasma?" -Q becomes quicker, make the base damage stack over itself (NOT LIKE THE PASSIVE, BUT ENOUGH TO OVERLAP PREVIOUS CASTS [when you hit someone who is already suffering from the previous Q.])