Since you all are up in arms over ADCs, here's how to fix it:

the weeaboo··72 votes·3,204 views
  • Remove Crit

Yes this is rather radical, but it needs to be done. ADCs can never be truly balanced when you have RNG double damage. It just doesn't make sense.

Once we remove crit we can then balance ADCs around their kits instead of around their builds.

  • Make ADC itemization niched

Right now on ADCs you just build the maximum amount of damage posssible, without differing your build too much. Other than Executioners, you basically are going to be going the same build every single game. There needs to be a clear distinction between what different items are for. Because right now it's basically Crit and attack speed + waveclearitem 3087 item 3085 /pokeitem 3094 /kitingitem 3046 .

  • Increase tower range, damage, and HP

In dota you don't need ranged carries because in lane you won't be able to be poked easily if you just play safe under tower. Right now the botlane meta is one of the ADCs getting 3 kills, pushing in the wave, and poking the enemy ADC down until the jungler can come over and dive. Which is not risky because tower do no damage. Then once they've killed the laners, they can take out the towers in one push.

  • Give ADCs everyone actual mana costs

Right now ADCs can basically spam for free. Even if it's not for free then you rush essence reaver and now it's REALLY for free. Going back to Dota, you can cast maybe 3 spells before you run out of mana. So you need to manage your poke and think carefully about when to use it.

EDIT: Now that i think about it, nobody in this game really has major mana issues other than maybe Ornn. It think it would be healthy to increase mana costs across the board to stop poke saturation and snowballing lanes.

I will probably add more points later but for now this is what we need to do to truly fix the problem.

97 Comments

Mens Hair Club30 votes

remove the double standards in melee vs ranged and make their spells telegraphed and delayed skillshots

no more hypocrisy

Critmaster Garen23 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mens Hair Club,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=reGIcqW9,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-09-12T16:20:21.435+0000)

remove the double standards in melee vs ranged and make their spells telegraphed and delayed skillshots

no more hypocrisy

^this basically.

we need to move away from champions like Vayne Tristana who are just balls of steroids and mobility tools on button presses.

and change them more to champions like Xayah Ezreal Draven who you can outplay by outmaneuvering them, dodging their abilities and cc them at right moments to deny their steroids. focused around telegraphed abilities, ramping up dps and dependent on mechanics with counterplay to access damage or attack speed bonuses to their auto attacks.

Mens Hair Club3 votes

and make melee carries the reliable high damage champions I agree

buff volibear

Stand in my X8 votes

no. fuck that guy. i just hate him dont mind me

EvanThomas3 votes

Do you want a Master Yi meta? Cuz this is how you get a Master Yi meta.

Eedat5 votes

Voli need a VGU, not buffs. Buffs wont fix the inherit issues with his kit. They'll just make him insanely oppressive against melees while doing absolutely nothing about ranged/teamfighting.

I Main Swain1 votes

yeah xayah is a great example of a well balanced champion. she has a lot of potential and can be reallly hard to beat but entirely capable of being outplayed. champions like tristana and twitch on the other hand are just "stand out of range and 4 shot them". i still dont understand why tristanas e needs to have an almost 200% ad ratio at its max that can also work on turrets.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Main Swain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=reGIcqW9,comment-id=000200000002,timestamp=2017-09-13T16:49:24.713+0000)

yeah xayah is a great example of a well balanced champion. she has a lot of potential and can be reallly hard to beat but entirely capable of being outplayed. champions like tristana and twitch on the other hand are just "stand out of range and 4 shot them". i still dont understand why tristanas e needs to have an almost 200% ad ratio at its max that can also work on turrets.

tristanas e is less of a problem than her q and her r.

both abilities are too reliable considering how much power they give her. her ult is pretty much a free "oh shit" button in case a melee champion actually manages to break through her auto attack range, then a second time after she repositioned with her w, through summoner heal, and her supports exhaust/healing/shielding, and potentially a couple w resets.

Critmaster Garen21 votes

i think the way to fix adc is actually to make their basic attacks on their own weaker (aka nerf adc items), put more power into their inbuilt attack steroids, while attaching counterplay to these attack steroids.

this means more defined windows of weakness like they did with Jhin who cant fight back during his reload animation.

more mechanics that play around positioning like Draven axes or Xayah feathers.

more mechanics that require the marksman to consistently hit abilities like Ezreal attack speed steroid is reliant on hitting his q.

thats not to say these champions dont have other issues at times (dravens passive is terrible from a design perspective for example, and his q deals too much frontloaded damage without the need to catch axes at times).

but generally less attack steroids on button presses without conditioning and no way for their opponents to play around them.

the worst offenders of these 0 counterplay/stat check playstiles are coincidentally among the strongest right now.

i think we actually need a second marksman update that combs through all the marksmen and adds counterplay mechanics to their attack steroids.

Steelflame8 votes

Not just make their basic attacks weaker with items, make them start with a lower base AD too (Even if it scales up lategame to where it is now).

After the rune rework, IMO, ADC champs should still start with ~50 AD. Mages could probably afford up to 55-60 starting AD, while many melees could afford starting values in the 70-80 range.

This should be done with the rune rework, and it would make a clear case that while ADs are stronger with AD itemization come later on thanks to range and their innate steroids, they do suffer from doing lower damage early on.

Sexy Jack Rabbit3 votes

But Riot went out to admit that Jhin's reload mechanic was flawed and didn't give him a window of weakness due to the function of his kit.

DracosKasu1 votes

It will is a weakness but they remove it by giving move speed after the last shot. Trist and Vayne problem came from the ability to move and push back their oppenent.

Executioner13 votes

Always sad when someone just says remove crit.

Fütanari3 votes

{quoted}

Always sad when someone just says remove crit.

Yeah and I stop reading when they say that.

Swaid13 votes

I would greatly appreciate if they tone down Executioner's Calling and Mortal Reminder to act more like Morellonomicon, because it feels impossible to play one of my favorite champions in the game right now...

R.I.P. DrMundo In the arms of an angel...

Sexy Jack Rabbit3 votes

As long as they nerf Healers as well.

DracosKasu1 votes

Theu could simply remove executioner debuff and keep it for mage and tank. It was a bad idea to give it to auto-attack.

StairCasexd1 votes

The grevious wounds on morello is pretty Meh since it requires you to have them below 35% Hp, executioners is a required item, how else are you going to have a chance against a healing tank, with SV and a heal spam support like sona/soraka and also negate some healing from the opponent adc building life steal. Especially since heals feel pretty strong since they give hp instead of temporary hp like sheilds.

Darkdemon6539 votes

{quoted}

  • Remove Crit

Yes this is rather radical, but it needs to be done. ADCs can never be truly balanced when you have RNG double damage. It just doesn't make sense.

Crit also makes them do regular damage, too. Each time a crit doesn't happen, everything invested into that stat was completely worthless, while everything invested into AD works no matter what.

Crit isn't this magical stat that enables things to be ridiculous. It's just a third stat to go along with AD and AS. Going from 0% crit to 20% crit has the exact same damage increase as going from 1.0 AS to 1.2 AS, which the exact same damage increase as going from 100 AD to 120 AD; each of those is a 20% increase in damage. The only problem it does have right now is it's too good early on. It's meant to be an efficient stat late game but an inefficient one early, but items with crit are regularly efficiently purchased first, second, and third.

Muzét8 votes

This is what I thought about

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/k3UngWAk-marksman-update

To talk about your idea:

Make ADC itemization niched

In fact those items are distinct. (According to your description you're talking about Zeal item line am I right?). The fact is those items are too strong by themselves. item 3087 that should waveclear is mostly use to burst 400 hp on a crit on a squishy by itself shouldn't be posssible since it's a waveclear item. It should do more damage to minion but lesser damage to champions. Reduce damage a lot and increase the % bonus to minions. item 3094 This item is fine by itself (guess what... it can't crit) but the fact that he makes both Statik and Warlord's recharge faster is overwhelming. item 3046 Too strong. Gives hidden power (just what Riot doesn't like currently - since they're going to remove Xin's AR/MR bonus on R) allowing Marksman to duel assassins even more than ever. (-12% dmg is just silly)

Give ADCs actual mana costs

This is part of a solution some adc got higher mana costs than other and we can see how fast you can run out of mana if you're spamming your spells ie Xayah Corki MissFortune

Increase tower range, damage, and HP

Roughly 90% of the boards want that. (I never saw a topic about Buffing towers being downvoted yet)

I won't talk about crit. Yeah it coould be remove. But then you should buff attack speed a lot more (maybe raise the cap even more than what I suggest) to make them deal real sustain damage. Or, you'll have to nerf some tank items. Since without Crits Marksmen won't deal as much on tanks when they're supposed to deal with them

DuskDaUmbreon5 votes

Most ADCs do have serious mana costs. You run out of mana very quickly on just about any marksman if you're not in the jungle, or buying Essence Reaver. Xayah, Ashe, Varus, Cait...the only ones I can think of that are not like that are Ez (who rushes Manamune, rather than ER), Draven (who doesn't use abilities much, he just bounces his Q repeatedly), and Sivir (who has her E to recover mana in lane, but still rushes Essence Reaver, anyways).

Meanwhile, I only run out of mana on Ahri, Karthus, Kassadin, or Lux if I'm going insane with the ability spam, supports almost never once I finish my first Forbidden Idol item, junglers essentially never (so long as I'm not spamming healing abilities or constantly ganking), tanks and juggernauts only before I pick up Sheen, never on assassins (granted, they mostly use energy, but even the ones that do use mana I never run out on), and pretty much never on skirmishers.

Marksmen are the only class left that actually has to care about their mana, which is beyond ironic, since they're the one that should rely least on abilities. Every other class can do it with literately no items, or with items they'd buy regardless of the mana it gives (Sheen, Morello, or Redemption/Ardent), while ADCs are the only ones who still have to itemize to not run out of mana all the time (most neither want nor need CDR, barring a few exceptions, while the AD and crit are better gotten from Infinity Edge, a core item for marksmen). That's just how it is.

DuskDaUmbreon4 votes

In addition, crit balances out to a % multiplier, virtually identical to Rabadon's passive. Sure, it's semi-random doubling (there is a limit in both directions, so the only times you'll always/never crit are if you have 100% crit or 0 crit, respectively), but, on average, it just multiplies total damage, the same as AS does. 30% crit means you'll do an average of 30% more damage on autos.

LightningShado1 votes

LITERATELY! HA

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

?

LightningShado1 votes

{quoted}

Marksmen are the only class left that actually has to care about their mana, which is beyond ironic, since they're the one that should rely least on abilities. Every other class can do it with literately no items, or with items they'd buy regardless of the mana it gives (Sheen, Morello, or Redemption/Ardent), while ADCs are the only ones who still have to itemize to not run out of mana all the time (most neither want nor need CDR, barring a few exceptions, while the AD and crit are better gotten from Infinity Edge, a core item for marksmen).

This guy meant to say literally.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

There's a difference? Spell-check accepts both.

Mr Wind Up Bird3 votes

{quoted}

There's a difference? Spell-check accepts both.

They're different words. 'Literally' means actually true, as contrasted with figuratively. 'Literately' means showing the characteristics of literacy, i.e. mastery of language and familiarity with literature.

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

Ah. Thank you, sir. I had not been aware of that.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

for example, instead of just giving Tristana a 110% attack speed steroid for 7 seconds by pressing q, they could make her e a skillshot that latches onto enemy champions like Zilean bombs and only allow her to access the full attack speed steroid when she detonates the bomb with 4 basic attacks.

or give her ramping up attack speed only against the bombed target, which extends its duration after the bomb went off.

Rapid Fire Active: Increases Tristana's Attack Speed by 10% (rank 1) to 30% (rank 5) for 4 seconds. basic attacks against champions and epic monsters marked by explosive charge increase this bonus by 5% (rank 1) to 20% (rank 5) per basic attack. explosive charge detonations extend the duration of rapid fire by 4 seconds.

its just a general example of how to make marksman damage

a) ramped up instead of frontloaded

b) telegraphed and added counterplay to their auto attack steroids.

Der Stechschritt4 votes

Dota 2 is also balanced with heavy RNG, and doesn't have Spell scaling to a large degree. Dota 2 is a balanced around a different standard. Phantom Assassin can crit you for 450% while Magic Immune. Items are much more powerful in Dota. Saying remove RNG, and then holding Dota as a balancing yard is trying to use Kilometers in a cooking show

Blåbæret3 votes

{quoted}

Dota 2 is also balanced with heavy RNG, and doesn't have Spell scaling to a large degree. Dota 2 is a balanced around a different standard. Phantom Assassin can crit you for 450% while Magic Immune. Items are much more powerful in Dota. Saying remove RNG, and then holding Dota as a balancing yard is trying to use Kilometers in a cooking show

Yet Dota is more balanced than League will ever be.

Fairyfleur3 votes

Or change crit, and not remove it entirely.

the weeaboo1 votes

I think leaving ONE crit item would be the solution. Ex: Daedalus from Dota. Basically just leaving in Infinity Edge

Fairyfleur2 votes

Then why would you buy IE? It amplifies crit, the passive would be useless.

the weeaboo3 votes

Wouldn't be uselss because you get crit chance from the IE. Maybe increase the crit to 35% on it?

AirKingNeo3 votes

Why doesn't anyone take the boards seriously?

Remove Crit

Yes this is rather radical, but it needs to be done. ADCs can never be truly balanced when you have RNG double damage. It just doesn't make sense.

Once we remove crit we can then balance ADCs around their kits instead of around their builds.

Oh, now I remember.

Tails90162 votes

RNG

It's not random if it's 100%

######pls don't hurt me

ViciousSummoner2 votes

Critical strike isn't too much of a problem. The only time it is a problem is when your team/you cannot itemize correctly. Critical strike usually always has built in attack speed and going with this the natural counters are: item 3143 item 3025 item 3110 item 3075 . Critical strike as it now stands is much, much more oppressive with the removal of Thornmail's 33% damage reflection. Still this problem is really only in lower elo's as it is because players cannot itemize as well don't know proper team fighting. Critical strike won't be a problem until we see Tryndamere Draven MasterYi in every LCS comp.

Itemization varies from game to game. Most players will only build one build because they don't know better. Just like how people will rush item 3031 or item 3078 when they go 0-3 in under 5 minutes.

Increasing the aggro range of towers is an understandable one, but not the base tower range. The base tower range is fine as it is because minions are able to move in closer and towers go down faster. The aggro range being increased would help benefit defensive play meaning the enemy team can't just continuously poke you down for free.

Essence Reaver is generally built on champs that require good mana management on top of their low mana pools.

Sivir 261 Base Mana Tristana 247 Base Mana MissFortune 325 Base Mana Jinx 246 Base Mana Caitlyn 313 Base Mana

All these AD's have 50-75% the mana that other AD's do.

Play a bit more and get a better game understanding or just watch a high ELO ADC mains like IMAQTPie, Geranimo, Gosu, Doublelift, etc., etc. and you'll see that what you're complaining about is limited just to you and how you play.

Comparing League to Dota is an apples to oranges situation. They may both be fruit but they're completely different.

Moonfall Saber1 votes

Crit cannot just be removed, its too embeded into the game. They can however lower crit damage to 120%. Then every item 3086 item increases crit damage by somewhere between 5-20 crit damage. Then infinity edge can remain the same and leave you somewhere around 210% damage with 80% crit chance late game rather than 250% damage and

the weeaboo2 votes

Then you've gutted their lategame. Better to remove crit, increase flat AD, and leave Infinity Edge as an optional damage steriod.

DeerGreenwood1 votes

In dota

Here we go, comparing LoL to DOTA...

the weeaboo4 votes

Woah it's almost like they are very similar games that could learn from one another

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

DeerGreenwood1 votes

Except for the fact that they're two completely different games. Literally, the only thing that's the same about them is the fact that you play as a character, and there are three lanes. They have different mechanics, different strategies, different items, etc. You can't compare them.

the weeaboo3 votes

I have 1.3k hours in Dota, roughly 1k in League and I can say without a doubt they are not really that different. At all. If anything the only big differences are Dota not having Summoner Spells/Recalling, and the fact that Dota doesn't have such confining roles and buildpaths.

LightningShado1 votes

Oh yes PLEASE REMOVE CRIT. I hate that thing. Make Yasuo normal.

Raiyza2 votes

Yasuo would need to be HEAVILY compensated.

Bonipherus1 votes

He'd probably need to be balanced a completely different stat. Without crit items being lacking in defense yasuo would go black cleaver, maw, and other defensive ad items and turn from a melee ad carry to a diver or something that lives way longer than he should

Raiyza1 votes

If you're going to remove crit as a whole, then Marksmen would have to be compensated. They will never kill tanks. Champions that build full tank like Nautilus Galio will easily fight marksmen.

Caitlyn Jhin MissFortune would be completely useless with their current kits without crit. You would have to rework most of the entire marksmen class.

Also Tryndamere item 3070

PrinceOfStorms2 votes

If you're going to remove crit as a whole, then Marksmen would have to be compensated.

If ADC damage is going to be consistent, it should be low. If ADC damage is going to be high, it should be hard to land. Removing crit from the game would be taking the former route. Marksmen would need no compensation because they're already OP as fuck.

Sad Tyrant1 votes

yes they would need compensation because crit is 40% - 60% of their damage

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