My Beef With Lifesteal and ADC Defensive Options

Mira Arya Enthe··18 votes·2,027 views

#Whoa there ADC friends! Please read the entire post before killing me.

Before you get up in arms about the title let me explain. I LOVE life steal. At least, as a basic concept. I love the idea of sustain, because I hate backing in MOBAs... simply that lol. Anyway, I also think sustain through damage is fun. I mean, outside of my ADC options Ashe and Sivir, I also enjoy Vlad, Morgana, Nasus and use to play a lot of Yi with lifesteal. So lifesteal makes me happy. But it is a problem, and here is my personal opinion nobody asked for.

My personal beef with lifesteal is that it is extremely snowball based. I don't care whether the champion was 'meant' to heal or not(as certain Vlad mains I love would say Lifesteal needs to be removed entirely), if only 2 champions were meant to heal we wouldn't have healing potions, healing spells, healing items and lifesteal. Lifesteal has a place, but since it is healing based on damage it is defense that gets better the further ahead you are. Generally defensive items are anti-snowball, are you losing lane on Riven? Build more HP/Resistance based AD items instead of your optimal route. But Lifesteal is the opposite, it is snowball defense, which is fine some snowball needs to exist to prevent stall outs, just not as strong as it currently is. Instead lifesteal should be a LITTLE bit lower and ADCs should get some HP items, just enough to let them anti-burst when behind. At least, that would make my Ashe and Sivir gameplay feel better.

What makes me think ADCs should have some less damaging item options with HP? Mages item 3116 item 3027 item 3151 item 3030 item 3152 HP is anti-burst, unlike resistances it cannot be penetrated and % HP damage is usually slower acting and DPS based. Resistances in low doses aren't worth much, not only due to pen but also due to the fact that they either are tuned high on their respective items and become busted, or tuned low and have no impact(especially when behind). HP is just pure and simple baseline defense for anybody.

#Now some quick answers to some of the obvious questions. "Aren't ADCs suppose to be weak to burst?" Correct. But it is at a point where the ADC who is ahead can out-sustain-tank 2-3 champions bursting them at times with as little as a BT for lifesteal. While the ADC who is behind gets blown up by a fucking Janna tornado. I feel an ahead ADC should have the opportunity to outplay an assassin or position well in their team so they can be safe. I don't feel like an overextended Miss Fortune should drain tank a Zed and Riven's burst just because she is ahead. Likewise I feel a behind ADC should be able to be bursted so the ahead team can capitalize on their lead, I don't feel like Bard should be able to burst them down with an AA-Q combo.

"What prevents the ADC who is ahead from building them?" Simple, put lower AD on them, and have lower or no lethality/crit on them. In my view that would make it no different than buying a low damage HP mage item. At this point if ahead in gold superior damage keeps lifesteal and glass cannon as the stronger option. Either way still healthier for an ahead ADC to have an extra couple hundred HP than to heal several hundred a second.

"ADCs Already have THREEEEEEEE Magic resist options?" Tell me the last time you saw a snowballing ADC build all Scimitar, EoN and Maw at the same time... That aside I agree, I am in the camp that there are too many strong AD/MR items at the moment, especially EoN. That said, this could be fixed with some tuning, item reworks and potentially some melee only tags.

"What prevents some melees from abusing these items?" I think some would be fine shared. The ones that are problematic could be made ranged only, just as some items should be melee only(Looking at you Sterraks).

"Aren't marksmen suppose to be feast/famine?" A fair point. I agree carry classes should do better when ahead and worse when behind. I don't think anybody's ahead should make them immune to failure or anybody's behind should make them completely without value to their team(Probably why I play Ashe as utility doesn't fall off).

That is all personal opinion though, based on what would make my gameplay more fun as Ashe. How do you feel?

21 Comments

LordGeovanni3 votes

its my opinion that lifesteal was meant for champions likeGangplank Aatrox Darius (his bleed needs to be cut down though) Jax not . Caitlyn Ashe Jinx in the current meta you cant not build hp and build lifesteal on a melee fighter because burst too strong and fighters have no attack speed items to leverage lifesteal.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

its my opinion that lifesteal was meant for champions likeGangplank Aatrox Darius (his bleed needs to be cut down though) Jax not . Caitlyn Ashe Jinx in the current meta you cant not build hp and build lifesteal on a melee fighter because burst too strong and fighters have no attack speed items to leverage lifesteal.

Bad post, darius is FINE. His bleed is fine.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Darius' bleed makes him impossible to trade with as a melee champion. but he isnt even supposed to be a duelist.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

Darius' bleed makes him impossible to trade with as a melee champion. but he isnt even supposed to be a duelist.

Says who?

Juggernauts are meant to be high damage high tank melee threats that shit on things close to them. He's doing his job as intended. Juggernauts are decent duelists by virtue of how they are meant to work.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

You have good points, but I'm afriad that in this meta to do much with Ashe you need a dedicated support with neqr instant CC to sit on you and prevent anything from touching you.

Like Leona.

As for my thoughts. You seem to want ADCs to be self sufficient, and that's fine, but for the ADCs without built in peel their damage is going to need to take a hit, otherwise they will become godlike.

Can you imagine Ashe with a dash like Lucian, and the utter nightmare it would be to chase her? It would be worse than a Blue Ezreal.

But if it's making a better Ashe gameplay specifically you're after, I have a suggestion. It won't make her peel herself like a Kalista but it may be enough.

While under the effects of Q, allow Ashe to still move while firing, albeit slower. We can have the speed loss decrease as she ranks up the skill.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

Interesting ideas, though not entirely the purpose of this topic. This topic is more about revamping the design of ADC defense, shifting it away from feast/famine lifesteal and towards some straight up HP like mages build. While lifesteal would remain it wouldn't be nearly as strong and instead you could take HP/AD items at a slight damage loss.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Hmm. If we lowered AD on items to encourage tankier builds on the part of the AD, then ADCs might invest in more crit chance instead to possibly make up for the lost attack. Furthermore unless we introduce new items that have both health and attack speed we won't see that big an increase, as Marksmen will default to the holy trinity of item 3031 + item 3086 item + item 3072 + item 1001.

But you mentioned nerfing lifesteal, so health items like item 3022 (just spitballing here) and item 3065 could find their way into builds, if only to improve their suvivability by making what lifesteal they get work better as well as allowing them to kite easier?

Let's not mention that Marksmen would be in danger of losing their niche as the objective takers, because unless Riot's crazy, they would never give ADCs health and crit/atk speed items, so if they go this route they become slower in taking objectives. Plus I imagine their loss in damage for arbitrary health that is useless without resistances but has to have at least two slots dedicated to a MR and an Armor item would cause them to lose duels with glass cannon ADCs.

What do you suggest would solve these issues? Do you think that Marksmen would build tanky and sacrifice their damage just so they don't get instamurdered?

Spoofghoul1 votes

they don't have to become weaker at taking objective with less dps

they could have items which increase their damage vs objectives

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

So like built in earth dragon buffs?

That's a possible route. Though their damage to objectives along with earth drake can be busted.

Spoofghoul1 votes

well yes like an ad/as/crit item which increases damage vs objectives by 10% for example

this way they can keep their class niche and lose some late game dps vs champions for example because crits are way overpowered right now even though it never really gets to late so nobody really notices it atm

maybe more of their itemization can have bonus damage vs structures and monsters and perhaps they can get more kit utility as well to make them less feast/famine

Better midgame strenght in their items smoother powercurve

Stronger objectives to keep their niche very relevant

at least that is what i would like to see happen

Royal Bard1 votes

{quoted}

well yes like an ad/as/crit item which increases damage vs objectives by 10% for example

this way they can keep their class niche and lose some late game dps vs champions for example because crits are way overpowered right now even though it never really gets to late so nobody really notices it atm

maybe more of their itemization can have bonus damage vs structures and monsters and perhaps they can get more kit utility as well to make them less feast/famine

Better midgame strenght in their items smoother powercurve

Stronger objectives to keep their niche very relevant

at least that is what i would like to see happen

I think what would turn out from your proposed changes are assassin and mages bot lane and they would just kill you over and over. I actually really like the concept of onhit with rageblade adc coupled with sterak and fronzen mallet a few patches back. I agree that crit should not be so bursty, maybe they could turn it into some sort of ramp up damage amplification.

Spoofghoul1 votes

but mages botlane is already a thing

adc by no means have a weak early tho, they have pretty strong early game overal as they aren't weaker then others but do have range

their midgame is weak but it would be better if they lost some late game power for better mid game power

AirKingNeo2 votes

ADCs aren't supposed to be feast-famine. That's something Riot is trying to avoid so I doubt they intend on that.

Royal Bard1 votes

observations are correct. But lifesteal is what makes a carry able to carry, tune it down and they would have probably to up the ranges on most adcs by 100-200 units.

LordGeovanni2 votes

actually range does that lifesteal is just an overtuned plus for safe ranged champions

DunkinNoobs1 votes

Lifesteal is a conditional survivability that requires you to keep attacking, and keep moving. It's allowed to be as strong as it is because lockdown effectively shuts down lifesteal, virtually eliminating that expected tankiness.

LordGeovanni3 votes

the condition being that the enemy team being built for lock down and lock down abilities having longer cooldowns and lower damage when no on a ranged carry. its not exactly hard to leverage being able to attack when you move faster than everyone and have 300-400 more range than everyone.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

Beeeeeeef.

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