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I'm just gonna say what everyone's thinking

Ramen226··2 votes·1,167 views

Damage that increases with health is not an interactive mechanic Damage that increases with armor is not an interactive mechanic Damage that increases with magic resist is not an interactive mechanic Invisibility is not an interactive mechanic. Strategies that only focus on both out sustain AND outpoking the laner without engaging them is not interactive by definition.

Stop making champions match your damage by building tank items. Reduce the base damage on any champion that builds tons of tank items and still has tons of damage. Making this one change fixes almost every problem league of legends has.

Not enough diversity within competitive/high elo play? Well maybe if tanks didn't have the same amount of damage as average laners the there would be more incentive to play new champions and increase viable champion pool. Or maybe it's because of things like full tank fizz and ekko that's constantly resurfacing that deters players from wanting to try new things.
This first part can be interpreted towards either assassins that aren't item dependent in terms of whether or not they can duel you, or tanks that have abilities that scale with tank stats. I'm tired of having someone go full tank optimizing against my damage, and SOMEHOW still 1v1ing me and winning because he doesn't take damage.

Invisibility is a stupid mechanic the way riot uses it. It's incorporated by assassins that instead of using it strategically to move around the enemy team and assassinate one person and then using it to get away, they've implemented it by making it so it has tons of utility and NO COUNTERPLAY (given that they aren't dumb and they can use it "properly".) Ever since the rework of pink wards, the majority of champions with stealth abilities go unchecked because there is no way to gain vision of an invisible champion. And to take a second and look at the 3 camouflaged champions, Twitch is either going to be with his team so control wards are almost pointless, or he's the jungler so he'll just kill it and come back later, or walk around it because the radius hardly covers anything. Evelyn is whatever we rarely see her anyways, but she's hard enough to play that its fine because her abilities can still be dodged and you can still outplay her well enough. And rengar, the guy where if he's ulted it doesnt matter if you can see him or not. If your team is clumped up he'll just aoe jizz all over everyone, if you're by yourself then his damage comes out 4-5 times as fast as yours and he gets tanky as an assassin so outplaying him is out of the question. Any other champion that gets invisibility like shaco or khazix can either stealth behind you can kill without counterplay, or if you DO catch one of them out, their mobility gets them out of tons of situations OR they can stealth behind you can kill you with little to no counterplay. Stealth isn't this awesome mechanic that feels rewarding to play against. And in case you're still questioning me on this point let me show you the champions that have invisibility according to the league wikia Akali Khazix Shaco Talon Teemo Vayne MonkeyKing . Out of the 7 champions with invisibility, 5 of them have barely any room to duel without just being full tank/playing a better champion that can burst them down faster somehow.

And holy shit my last point. This is the most tilting, uninteresting, unwanted gameplay that could ever exist. Vladimir Swain Chogath Maokai Darius DrMundo Nasus Renekton Tryndamere Illaoi Shen Yorick and last but most tilting Gangplank . Some of the examples like darius, nasus, or cho'gath aren't necessarily the champions that best for this point, but they are decent enough examples. The entire concept of a champion where the only thing you do in laning phase is win by outsustaining is just a trashy design. It's great that they exist sure because i still like having a diverse cast of champions with many different playstyles. I'll give you that. But when you get shit like Vladimir and Gangplank it's time to tone it the fuck down. Especially for gp. considering that he gets manaless, aoe, poke that pushes the lane, a qss/heal in a BASIC ability, and a ranged melee attack that gives you more gold, and to top it all off a global ult that has upgrades you can buy just by farming like you normally would.

I could bitch about the other champions that play like this but i think you get my point. Forget champions like Yasuo that can ass pound you, they play aggressively and can still screw up during laning, no matter how overloaded their kit is. Playstyles like Vladimir and Gangplank shouldn't be so dominant and lacking counterplay measures. (i get that you can just build item 3123 or item 3165 for grievous wounds but thats not the point. I'm talking really early laning phase. Not to mention that having to buy a specific item as the only counterplay to a very specific part of another champions kit is rediculous. AND item 3165 costs 2900g so you still can't get shit for early laning phase.

Alright rant over. I'm just a shitty top laner who's tired of these dumb champions taking over my role. I play Tryndamere mostly so I included him even though he's my main. If there's any real counterplay to these champions that has greater poke/wave clear/sustain LMK.

ffs this game is getting so boring though, people in norms just sitting under turret for 35 minutes needs to stop.

49 Comments

Big Lincoln6 votes

Damage that increases with health is not an interactive mechanic Damage that increases with armor is not an interactive mechanic Damage that increases with magic resist is not an interactive mechanic

none of these are mechanics, they're stats.

Well maybe if tanks didn't have the same amount of damage as average laners the there would be more incentive to play new champions and increase viable champion pool.

if tanks didn't have base damage they would all be supports, because they'd lose all ability to solo lane and wouldn't be able to jungle efficiently.

I'm tired of having someone go full tank optimizing against my damage, and SOMEHOW still 1v1ing me and winning because he doesn't take damage.

You said it yourself, he's optimized against your damage; you haven't done the same. Seems completely legitimate to me.

And holy shit my last point. This is the most tilting, uninteresting, unwanted gameplay that could ever exist.

Darius Illaoi have to engage you if they want to sustain. both have telegraphed attacks that can be avoided. Darius Illaoi Renekton Yorick have to engage you because they're early-mid game champions and ignoring you means they're wasting their power spike. The rest of them besides Shen are all late game champions and need their sustain to carry them through early game; it's YOUR job to beat that sustain. Shen is not meant to fight you in lane, because he has a global defense ultimate; there is absolutely zero reason Shen should become a good lane duelist with that in mind.

vlad and GP

are both some of the easiest champions to all-in early game with anyone who has mobility or is a lane bully. Wukong, Xin Zhao, Renekton, Pantheon can put them out of the game from level 2.

I play Tryndamere

so you're just mad that not everyone is a squishy melee top laner so you can ignite cheese them?

Ramen2261 votes
  1. Mechanic was a bad word choice, see other comments. You're ignoring the point.
  2. I'm saying tanks base damage is too high and that if you don't build damage, you shouldn't deal that much damge. You're ignoring the point.
  3. Optimizing against my damage means that I shouldn't deal damage, point taken, that's still not what I'm saying. He deals damage, by building full tank.
  4. I already pointed out that a few of the champions mentioned don't fit the description perfectly. Darius is your only valid point that I aleady mentioned. You're only repeating my disclaimers and telling me that's proof I'm wrong. Renekton was actually a really bad example so that's valid. Illaoi needs to land an e and she can regen about a quarter to a third hp. That's not engaging (saying just dodge the skillshot is dumb otherwise i can say that any champion with a skillshot isn't considered viable because you can just "dodge it") Yorick can hit minions to heal.
  5. You can all in vlad at level 1 and if it doesn't work and you lose your summoners then he just keeps Q on cooldown and heals back to full hp. If you all-in and it DOES work then he just gets a few items and can't die in laning phase, but you can which is the part I'm talking about. Gangplank you can all in level 1 or level 2 if he's bad and can't barrel (being bad isn't a good enough reason to say he's interactive). Once he hits level 3 your chances of killing him goes way down. You can say "just kill him" but then that would apply to every champion in the game. After first back and he has sheen then you aren't killing him without jungle pressure or if he's bad. Oranges are about a quarter of his mana which we can both agree is pretty high. That's only with his base mana and considering he has pretty significantly above average base mana regen, starts with dorans ring as his best start, and his first item piece is a mana item, it's not that much of a setback since his barrels are manaless and his q is a measly 40 mana. Granted, you can't really just spam it without getting a little low, but it's not enough to be a real handicap. Gangplank with exhaust is a highly oppressive lane because you can RARELY kill him and even if you do put yourself in a situation where you can can still orange exhaust and kit with barrels. He has an overloaded kit.
  6. And now we're at the point where instead of coming up with actual reasons as to why I'm wrong you just point to the champion I said I main, say how he has a cheesy playstyle which I already said he did, and say the phrase everyone uses when they don't have an argument, you're mad.

Now I already admitted that the way I play is cheesy, I'll give you that. But you're just downvoting and commenting because you're mad I called you out on who you main. I op.gg'd just to check. The funny part is while you said I'm mad that not everyone plays a squishy top laner. You LITERALLY said, "You said it yourself, he's optimized against your damage; you haven't done the same. Seems completely legitimate to me." You're saying that if you don't build straight up tank items then its fine that that he can outdamage you.

Tank items should be for surviving, not fighting. But you don't agree solely on the basis that you main tanks. smh the hypocrisy is crazy on the forums. I'm fine with having people in top that I can't kill/shove under tower constantly. What I'm not fine with is shit like item 3068 Shen outdamaging any other top laner while staying at full hp bc even when his W is gone your autos still deal no damage. Meanwhile his autos still chunk any top laner (not just my main) because they deal max hp damage.

In essence you're saying that if you're fighting a tank you should build tank items because the guy with no damage items is gonna kill you if you don't. Meaning i have to buy resistances to fight the guy that didn't buy damage. Please explain how you don't see that is ridiculous.

Ralanr3 votes

Simply put, it allows tanks to clear the jungle at a viable speed and interact with their laners. If tanks didn't hurt, then they'd effectively be forced to just farm under their tower and sandbag the lane.

This is not healthy nor is it fun. It makes top lane boring and you're basically only there to teleport to another lane to help someone else, sacrificing your tower in the process.

Now personally I have issue when tanks have high base damage on abilities that are too reliable (it's why I hated Maokai's %health damage W). Someone like Sion works with his high base damage because all of his abilities are very unreliable.

Shen also falls into this because to actually do the most damage he can, he needs to use all three of his abilities in one combo against a target. He needs to taunt them, bring his sword through them, and then bring the dodge zone. If he can't do that, then his damage output drops.

Needing to build ONE defensive item to effectively nullify a tanks damage output isn't a big sacrifice for a melee champion. In fact that's to be expected for everyone outside of Tryndamere because being melee means you'll always take more damage than everyone else. Tryndamere gets away without it because of his ult, allowing good Tryndamere players to go full damage as long as they can use his ult at the right time.

TLDR: it makes tanks interactive in lane and viable junglers. It's not hard to nullify and you should build a defensive item if you fall behind (or if you're melee in general) anyway.

Ramen2261 votes

Am I crazy for thinking that what you build is what you get... If you build tank items you should take less damage, if you build damage items you should deal more damage. The damage on tanks comes out too fast and isn't a healthy interaction. The point about wanting to make sure they can clear the jungle is a separate thread. Riot kept making jungle camps stronger which pushed a lot of niche picks out and that's why tanks are having problems. It's because, by virtue of of riot directly making the jungle hurt more that tanks are being pushed out.

If you want tanks in the jungle, make their clear slow but reliable. If they take just about no damage from jungle camps then their clear will be slow but they can be pretty safe in the jungle vs higher damage champions. I think people are misunderstanding me in the sense they think I want tanks to be straight up nerfed or inviable which isn't the case. I want tanks to fulfull the role of a champion that can't disrupts the enemy team and is hard to kill. But right now they're a mini carry because if you don't focus them then he can kill you all, but you can't focus him because he takes very little damage.

About the point of building a tank item to combat tanks, tanks still have higher base damage. So although you won't die as fast they will still outdamage you just because of their base stats.

To address the tldr fully: Champions that build tank items shouldn't be interacting in lane, they're building to do the opposite. To make them viable junglers then the damage output and intake should be made that they take almost no damage in the jungle so that they can clear slow but reliable. And if you build tank items to not die to full tank champions then there's more likely than not a problem with the system. The counter to a strategy shouldn't be to implement the same strategy.

Ralanr3 votes

{quoted}

Am I crazy for thinking that what you build is what you get... If you build tank items you should take less damage, if you build damage items you should deal more damage. The damage on tanks comes out too fast and isn't a healthy interaction. The point about wanting to make sure they can clear the jungle is a separate thread. Riot kept making jungle camps stronger which pushed a lot of niche picks out and that's why tanks are having problems. It's because, by virtue of of riot directly making the jungle hurt more that tanks are being pushed out.

If this game was based solely on what you build, no you wouldn't be crazy. But League is not that. You are ignoring how base damage and scaling works.

If it was "what you build is what you get" then I might as well build AP on Olaf and say I should do magic damage. That's not how it works.

As for too fast output, what tanks are you talking about? I would love to know what damage comes out too fast for a Tryndamere main.

If you want tanks in the jungle, make their clear slow but reliable. If they take just about no damage from jungle camps then their clear will be slow but they can be pretty safe in the jungle vs higher damage champions.

"Let's make you never want to pick a tank jungler over someone like Lee or Graves"

Junglers are measured by clear speed and how healthy their clears leave them to be. Of those two factors, clear speed is much more valued in viability. Why would I take Sejuani if it takes her twice as long as the average jungler?

Hint: I wouldn't. I'd pick a faster jungler so I can impact things more.

Plus making them take little to no damage from jungle monsters would be MUCH unhealthier.

I think people are misunderstanding me in the sense they think I want tanks to be straight up nerfed or inviable which isn't the case. I want tanks to fulfull the role of a champion that can't disrupts the enemy team and is hard to kill. But right now they're a mini carry because if you don't focus them then he can kill you all, but you can't focus him because he takes very little damage.

We understand what you want (with your explanation anyway) but I don't think you understand the difference in how tanks work in PVP from PVE. In PVE you have mechanics that generate aggro for AI to target. Normally AI target the biggest threat, but aggro generating abilities trick AI into thinking the tank is the bigger threat when they are the lowest threat.

Humans are not that stupid (in theory). We can't just have aggro generating mechanics like that in league, unless you want more taunts (and I doubt people want more taunt abilities). So tanks need some way to generate threat to people. More than just CC since spamming CC and doing nothing afterwards isn't fun. Making their CC abilities hurt at least allows them to work as zoning abilities with the threat of using them.

It's why you play carefully around Blitzcrank in lane. Because the potential of his Q means death.

About the point of building a tank item to combat tanks, tanks still have higher base damage. So although you won't die as fast they will still outdamage you just because of their base stats.

They will not. They have high base but they aren't making it stronger. Unlike you when you build a damage item. So one or two defensive items is enough to make their damage much more ignorable. And since they aren't increasing their damage, they won't hit harder while you are because you'll be building more damage eventually.

To address the tldr fully: Champions that build tank items shouldn't be interacting in lane, they're building to do the opposite. To make them viable junglers then the damage output and intake should be made that they take almost no damage in the jungle so that they can clear slow but reliable. And if you build tank items to not die to full tank champions then there's more likely than not a problem with the system. The counter to a strategy shouldn't be to implement the same strategy.

Ok, first this isn't the same strategy. I'm not telling you to build full tank, I'm saying that maybe you should build one defensive item. 1==6.

Second, that logic is flawed by the premise of fight fire with Fire. Sometimes the person dishing out the joke can't take a joke back for example.

Ramen2261 votes
  1. I get that olaf shouldn't deal ap damage bc he goes deathcap. lol. I mean more like olaf builds full damage he deals more damage vs he builds full tank you can't kill him. As it stands you don't really notice a difference in the damage output because he dies instantly without tank items (as he should).
  2. Picking a jungler should be on a scale of speed vs safety. Junglers that are more tanky should be safer in the jungle vs invades and champions that have faster clears should be at lower hp throughout it. As it stands the meta junglers have fast clears that leave them healthy. IF i were to make a change i'd make faster clearing junglers like graves or lee more susceptible to being invaded as their clear would put them at lower hp.
  3. "We understand what you want (with your explanation anyway) but I don't think you understand the difference in how tanks work in PVP from PVE. In PVE you have mechanics that generate aggro for AI to target. Normally AI target the biggest threat, but aggro generating abilities trick AI into thinking the tank is the bigger threat when they are the lowest threat." Ok at least you understand what I'm trying to convey, and I understand the necessity for higher than average base damage on tanks. If they were cc bots then they'd become unhealthy. BUT it goes the other way too. If they deal too much base damage then they start fulfilling multiple roles because they can now be treated as fighters with high survivability, which is just as unhealthy.
  4. "They will not. They have high base but they aren't making it stronger. Unlike you when you build a damage item. So one or two defensive items is enough to make their damage much more ignorable. And since they aren't increasing their damage, they won't hit harder while you are because you'll be building more damage eventually." This is a good point and I will definitely make a point of trying to build of fitting in defensive items more often vs "tanks."
  5. "Ok, first this isn't the same strategy. I'm not telling you to build full tank, I'm saying that maybe you should build one defensive item. 1==6." Clearly I'm not interpreting it that you're saying to build 6 defensive items. BUT saying the only counterplay to tanky champions is to start with building a tank item.

I just don't think the idea of most tanky champions constantly stat checking everyone else.

Ralanr1 votes

  1. And Olaf kills a lot faster when he's full glass cannon. There is a trade off.

  2. Except it doesn't a tank junglers have always been the best victims for invades. Sounds great on paper, but paper doesn't hold up.

  3. You'd have a stronger argument if you actually knew what a tank is. But you consider champions like Darius and Illaoi as tanks. They aren't tanks, they are fighters.

  4. You should honestly already be building one defensive item as melee. I'm surprised you don't (granted you play Tryndamere).

  5. I'm sorry, should I complain that I have to build MR against mages because that's their counter? No. I do it because it's their counter.

  6. Sorry but you play Tryndamere. You can't really complain about people stat checking as unhealthy because that's basically Tryndamere's entire kit.

Big Lincoln4 votes

But you don't agree solely on the basis that you main tanks.

https://i.gyazo.com/09c04c7c6b4955508ce80d9189ce7f3a.png

i see one tank in this list. I "main" tanks, huh?

Tank items should be for surviving, not fighting.

That's what they do. They help you SURVIVE so that you can FIGHT longer.

In essence you're saying that if you're fighting a tank you should build tank items because the guy with no damage items is gonna kill you if you don't.

I guess I should have worded it differently. You, Tryndamere, are a late game champion, fighting tanks, champions who historically spike in the mid game. Why do you expect to be able to fight a group of champions who have a better 1-item power spike with 1 item yourself, let alone that their power spike is usually a counter build meant to beat you?

Illaoi needs to land an e and she can regen about a quarter to a third hp.

Illaoi is completely incapable of putting you in a situation where you can't at least fight back; she is a champion who revolves entirely around punishing mistakes. You can reduce the damage she can do by fighting her if she lands her E, you can destroy tentacles to make it not worth her while to throw out Es in the first place, and everything besides her W is avoidable. I'm pretty amazed how often people complain about a champion who has the single most counterplay in the game. She's not even a hard lane for Tryndamere; she needs to be at least level 5 to actually have kill pressure.

smh the hypocrisy is crazy on the forums

and say the phrase everyone uses when they don't have an argument, you're mad.

But you're just downvoting and commenting because you're mad I called you out on who you main.

http://archive-media-0.nyafuu.org/vp/image/1474/37/1474377956597.png

Ramen2261 votes

Darius, Illaoi, Taric Sejuani, Nasus. All tanks. Where the hell are you getting one tank.

I'm not going to respond to most of the most on the basis it's dead wrong. You can't make up stuff and then expect it to be on the same level as someon (me) who used facts in the original and the response posts.

You're down voting only because you want to defend your champion. One of the main points in your first response was that I'm mad not everyone is squishy so I can't just kill them.

There is a VERY clear difference between my argument and yours.

You don't understand how a game should function and you're using mainly one liners and saying that its a constructive argument. There's no point in trying to explain it to you. Good day

Big Lincoln4 votes

3 fighters and a support. One tank.

down voting because this is a shit thread from an equally bad player. "You don't understand how a game should function" from the guy who can't figure out that tanks win through attrition, and cant distinguish between a tanky champion and a tank.

stay silver

Ramen2261 votes

Illaoi builds mostly tank items Taric builds mostly tank and support items Darius builds almost exclusively tank items Sejuani I have no what the best builds are but I'm going to guess tank items. I looked it up and what a suprise. Mostly tank items.

"My champion itemizes exactly like a tank but they aren't trust me I main them." "My champion builds mostly tank items and matches your damage output it's fair and balanced trust me I main those champions."

Keep that 32% winrate bub.

Ralanr3 votes

{quoted}

Darius, Illaoi, Taric Sejuani, Nasus. All tanks. Where the hell are you getting one tank.

You don't know what tanks are. Only Sejuani and arguably Taric is a tank in that list. The rest are juggernauts, a fighter subclass.

Know what a tank is before you complain about them.

Ramen2261 votes

The point of the thread is champions that build tank items and can maintain other champions damage output.

Not specifically about champions that appear when you mark the checkbox for tank on the league of legends champions page.

If that were the case then when we talk about assassins then we include master yi and exclude diana.

If they build tank items and can still out damage you then there's a problem somewhere.

Ralanr3 votes

{quoted}

The point of the thread is champions that build tank items and can maintain other champions damage output.

And I told you, they aren't doing more damage than a damage dealer. The damage dealer just can't take much.

Not specifically about champions that appear when you mark the checkbox for tank on the league of legends champions page.

Great save after calling Darius a tank.

If that were the case then when we talk about assassins then we include master yi and exclude diana.

We should. Diana should be balanced around being a fighter, not as an assassin.

If they build tank items and can still out damage you then there's a problem somewhere.

They aren't out damaging. Watch a full tank hit a tower and compare an adc with full damage hitting a tower. Have them leave whenever they take turret aggro. You'll see that the glass cannon takes it faster.

Same with dragon and Baron. I have yet to see a tank or juggernaut solo Baron.

Ramen2261 votes

Holy crap you really are just dumb. I actually have to explain every specific point of the argument so you understand what I'm saying. There really is no hope trying to explain how the game actually works to you.

Lemme try saying one thing and MAYBE you'll understand. Otherwise you are actually incapable of cognitive reasoning.

Damage taken and damage dealt is comparative. If champion A deals of champion B's health bar during a trade, then champion A dealt more damage relative to champion B. This is the ONLY way you can refer to damage when talking about balancing around champion interactions.

And the way it ACTUALLY funtions in game is champion A deals 2k damage and champion B deals a little more than 2k damage in the same amount of time. The damage is roughly equal but champion A has built full tank.

No doubt you're going to find some way to bs yourself out of this.

Ralanr3 votes

{quoted}

Damage taken and damage dealt is comparative. If champion A deals of champion B's health bar during a trade, then champion A dealt more damage relative to champion B. This is the ONLY way you can refer to damage when talking about balancing around champion interactions.

You're only accounting the amount of damage done, not the amount of damage one can take.

Edit: let me simplify what I mean.

Let's say A can do 2 damage but only has 1 hitbox. B can only do 1 damage but has 3 hitboxes. A does more damage but can't take any.

So if B kills A, does that mean B does more damage than A? No, B only did 1 to A's 2. A just couldn't take 1.

Does that make sense to you?

Ramen2261 votes

It's the same example but you're thinking about it differently.

B can deal 100% of A's hp. A can deal 33% of B's hp.

B comparatively deals greater damage than A within this specific interaction.

Does that make sense to you?

Ralanr1 votes

Because the way you're explaining it stretches the actual example to the point of exaggeration.

It's basically the difference between dealing 10 damage and dealing 3. I'm not doing much damage because it does not take much to actually kill you. Why do you not understand this?

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

And here gentlemen, we see the Tank main and the Skirmisher main in their natural habitat, fighting for supremacy and mates.

Ramen2261 votes

le meow

Ramen2261 votes

Because in game it's not just: champion a has 1 hp and 2 damage. Champion B has 3 hp and 1 damage.

It more like: champion A's full rotation deals 2700 in physical damage with a damage item and has 2100 health. Champion B's full rotation does 2500 physical damage with a tank item and has 2900 health.

Champion B can just about 100-0 champion A with no damage items which is what the problem is.

Itemization should be the difference between dealing tons of damage or taking tons of damage. tanks shouldn't be dealing a lot of damage because they haven't actually bought the items for it. Why do you not understand this?

Ralanr1 votes

{quoted}

Because in game it's not just: champion a has 1 hp and 2 damage. Champion B has 3 hp and 1 damage.

Obviously.

It more like: champion A's full rotation deals 2700 in physical damage with a damage item and has 2100 health. Champion B's full rotation does 2500 physical damage with a tank item and has 2900 health.

I don't want to agree here because I feel I need an actual champion to showcase this.

Champion B can just about 100-0 champion A with no damage items which is what the problem is.

Only lane bullies, which Darius, Illaoi, and Sion are. Sion is the only tank.

Itemization should be the difference between dealing tons of damage or taking tons of damage. tanks shouldn't be dealing a lot of damage because they haven't actually bought the items for it. Why do you not understand this?

If itemization was the only form of scaling, the game would be much too snowball reliant. Level scaling also exists, hell its why we have 18 levels instead of just 4.

Scary Door3 votes

While I agree with the spirit of what you said, this part is what I will COMPLETELY agree with...

Invisibility is not an interactive mechanic. Strategies that only focus on both out sustain AND outpoking the laner without engaging them is not interactive by definition.

Invisibility is just an unhealthy mechanic in absolutely every PVP game I've ever played. It's ostensibly impossible to balance.

Overall, though, I agree with the gist of what you wrote. To do damage, you should have to build damage, building damage mitigation should---in turn---help you actually mitigate damage. A tank should never out-duel a carry late game, period. Unfortunately, League is too damage focused where nearly every champion has either huge burst damage or incredible DPS, very few champions lack the ability to blow someone up, except for many Janna or Nami (two of the better designed champions I might add).

Ramen2261 votes

I agree. My point was poorly articulated. But I just don't think most game companies understand that when a characters kit is fully utilized its had the same essential output value as most other characters. Making a champion better because they're harder to play is a fucked up way to balance. And while i do think that harder champions should be better, a champion that is 2-3 times as hard to play as another champion, - shouldn't be 2-3 times better. Skill in to power out should never be a 1 to 1 ratio or of course you're going to get poor balance design.

This all means that using stealth mechanics properly should put you on even ground, not give the significant advantages we see in league mostly.

AlienPrimate3 votes

It is impossible for anyone building tank items to do the same amount of damage as anyone building carry items. Tanks do not do the same amount of damage as ADC's or Mages and they never will. They may do the same amount of damage to each other because the tank just takes less damage but to the same target it isn't even close. Stop complaining about someone doing damage to you when you have 1.8k life and 50 of each resist. It is expected that you take a lot of damage from fly biting you. If you think a tank that can kill in in 6 seconds is a lot of damage what do you call a fed Draven that can kill you in .000000000001 second when you have absolutely no armor.

Ramen2261 votes

I call a fed draven with damage items, a fed draven with damage items... He has damage items. He should be dealing damage. I call the maokai that only built health and can kill fighters in 6 seconds bs because he doesn't have damage items. I get that because you're a tank main you don't like people badmouthing your role/platstyle. But you're also just dead wrong when you say that "it's impossible for anyone building tank items to do the same amount of damage as anyone building carry items." Tank fizz and tank ekko. And there have been several games in the LCS where the tank dealt roughly the same amount of damage as the carries AND toook the most damage on the team.

The frustration is that tanks have 2k damage in their rotation through base damage. So the only way to duel them is to build tank back, or hope they suck. I accept that squishy champions should take a ton of damage from people with damage items. But you're defending the concept of champions without building damage dealing damage.

Ralanr3 votes

You're confusing damage output.

A tank is not going to do more overall damage to a glass cannon built champion. Just as the glass cannon isn't going to survive more overall damage than a tank champion. A tank killing a squishy doesn't mean that the tank is dealing equal damage, it means that the squishy is squishy.

Ramen2261 votes

If the tank has a squishy champions health bar in base damage then there's nothing to confuse. You're saying that the the fighter should build more tank because the guy with no damage its is a threat to him. That's not a healthy interaction. Tanks should have damage, but should not be able to match other champions in a duel because they have high base damage and high resistances.

Ralanr1 votes

When you say a tank does more damage than a squishy, that is false. A tank building champion will not do more damage than a squishy against the same target.

A fighter doesn't need to build more tank than a tank to survive a tank. They need to just build some durability (and they are expected to anyway) because going full glass cannon as a melee champion is widely ineffective against a tanky champion. Odds are they will survive the damage you'll put out, leaving you with nothing to fall back on when they return the blow.

If tanks did high damage, then they would be damage threats to each other. Spoiler warning: they aren't. At least not in quick fights (getting into an extended fight against Maokai is pretty much a loss in my experience). There is a reason that tank vs tank fights are jokingly referred to as pillow fights.

A tank isn't a real damage threat. But that doesn't stop them from hurting people who have no durability. That's what being squishy means, you die pretty easily to anyone.

AlienPrimate2 votes

Please just watch this and then tell me tanks do a lot of damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr-y1VLftB0

FiddlesOnTheRoof3 votes

Holy shit. If this game was designed the way you want it to be, it would be the most boring, binary, vanilla moba out there. It wouldn't be fit to be a mobile game.

Ramen2261 votes

If this game was designed the way I wanted it.

Tanks* would fit the role of someone to disrupt the enemy team, apply cc, and soak up damage. Assassins would have high target single burst. Fighters would be melee range moderate dps and survivability with at least one gap closer. Marksmen would have a range of moderate to high dps with low survivability and a mobility would vary between champions. Supports would fill a flex role where they can be a tank*, healer, or really a host of interactions that put their team mates into a position to carry, deal more/ take more damage, etc.

Sorry I'd rather playstyles have a variety of counterplay options with a deeper meta alongside a larger champion pool of characters that can win vs a greater amount of matchups.

If this game was designed the way that you guys wanted it then we'd all be playing champions that have high base damage and only build hp and resistances and have wet noodle fights all game.

Ralanr4 votes

How would you get tanks to soak up all that damage?

You can make something unkillable but if you don't provide a reason to focus them so they can show they are unkillable then you just have this big ignorable rock.

Edit: if I got to design tanks, I'd make all of their high damage abilities have high counterplay and be extremely telegraphed. Because if I want a mountain to hit you, I want it to hurt but also be something you can see coming from a mile away.

Ramen2261 votes

I think people or misunderstanding me thinking I just don't want tanky champions to have any base damage which isn't the case.

But when you have to build tank items to counter their base damage is where it's frustrating.

And that edit I like the concept of too. I guess that's what I mean when i say the damage comes out too fast is that that bilities themselves aren't telegraphed enough to be able to outplay them.

Ralanr2 votes

{quoted}

I think people or misunderstanding me thinking I just don't want tanky champions to have any base damage which isn't the case.

But when you have to build tank items to counter their base damage is where it's frustrating.

You know what's frustrating? Not being able to do anything but die a slow death because I was left alone against a high damage character and no one will bother helping me.

That's basically what it sounds like you want laning for tanks to be.

And that edit I like the concept of too. I guess that's what I mean when i say the damage comes out too fast is that that bilities themselves aren't telegraphed enough to be able to outplay them.

The problem is that your don't know the difference between tanks and juggernauts. You're combining them together without understanding that juggernauts are supposed to do what you hate.

I still don't know which champions have a too quick damage output for you.

Ramen2261 votes
  1. "You know what's frustrating? Not being able to do anything but die a slow death because I was left alone against a high damage character and no one will bother helping me. That's basically what it sounds like you want laning for tanks to be."

Quite the contrary I'm fine with not being able to kill tanky champions. Or if they can still heal back everything i do deal. I just don't understand why they can have comparable damage without building damage.

Ralanr2 votes

Dude, not many tanks actually have sustain.

Zac and Mao are pretty much the only ones.

Ramen2261 votes

Oh and as for champions that are build to be tanky but still deals high damage. I play tryndamere so that these champions don't bother me as much, but you can still feel them in the early game even as trynd.

Champions that I FEEL like are unhealthy and lowers what champions you can really play top because they'll just overpower you: Darius Galio Gnar Illaoi Malphite Maokai Nautilus Renekton Swain TahmKench Vladimir Yorick

these are champs i'd consider that require you to play ultraviable champions or you're most likely going to lose. I'd say that these picks aren't the tanks we've been talking about, but their base damage is high enough that you have to pick champions that most would consider "ultraviable" to compete.

Ralanr2 votes

Tryndamere's early is supposed to suck for one.

Darius: not a tank, Juggernaut. Illaoi: Juggernaut Gnar: this little fucker is weird. Renekton: Diver. Lane bully like Illaoi and Darius. Swain: is a mage Vladimir: is a hypercarry and sucks early. Yorick: Juggernaut.

And none of these champions really require you to play ultra viable champions. But they will kick Tryndamere's ass in lane because he's weak in lane (except Vlad. How are you losing that?).

Ramen2261 votes

Wasn't talking strictly about tryndamere. Still not talking about only champions riot classifies as tanks. Sure why not I'm talking about juggernauts. I just haven't spelled out juggernaut specifically. Really any champion whos main source of damage is through base damage so they can build nearly full tank.

Darius: builds item 3071 and then goes full tank. Illaoi: builds item 3071 and more often than not item 3812 and then full tank. Gnar: builds item 3022 or item 3071 and then full tank Renekton: ok i give up on this fuck he's just a lane bully like pantheon. Swain: This guy is weird. Yes, he is a mage but his itemization is usually 1-2 ap that is most commonly item 3027 and some variant of item 3145 . Still builds mostly tank and unless you're ahead you're gonna have a bad day. Vladimir: (i actually don't have a problem with him if i go tryndamere) my problems is that if your all-in doesn't kill him or if you're too ow to stay in lane, he's back to full hp in a wave. And then if their jungler keeps trying to screw with you early then getting a lead back from vlad is near impossible post lvl 3. Yorick: Builds a variant of item 3057 and sometimes item 3071 and then full tank.

And all too often will they break their normal build path, rush item 3143 or item 3068 and then killing them is out of the question.

Ralanr1 votes

So they aren't actually going full tank, they are going bruiser.

Rewt1 votes

i have to disagree with your description of GP. GP doesnt win lane. He just sits there and farms and doesnt die for 30 min then get finally gets items so he can 1 shot you...... like every Late game champion ever.

Ramen2261 votes

"Like every late game champion ever" What game are you playing and where can i buy it. Because late game champions in league of legends don't have that kind of poke, sustain, and survivability during early laning phase. Nasus, vayne, veigar, fiora, illaoi (only mentioning her bc she doesnt have the kind of ranged poke that gp does during teamfights. she hsa to fling herself into the enemy team and has to land skillshots/walk into lane in order to sustain).

So i'd love for you to back up that statement about "Every late game champion ever" bc i have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

By the way watch literally any high level gp main (tobias doesnt count he ints like every other game) and watch them destroy lanes from early levels. Like NEACE is doing ANOTHER gp to masters profile.

Hige1 votes

Damage that increases with health is not an interactive mechanic Damage that increases with armor is not an interactive mechanic Damage that increases with magic resist is not an interactive mechanic

Uhm, while I tend to agree with this, I think that the idea of a tank is pretty biased depending on each players... I'm guessing you play melee adcs and that's why when you face a tank you feel like the mechanics are not interactive, that said, I'd like you to take a moment to think about defensive itemization

A tank is a champion that can take quite a bit of damage but when you apply defensive items on the formula they become even more resistant, up until this point I think you can agree, defensive items makes you more resistant so you tend to die less, in contrast, damage items make you hurt more, so instead of dying less, you simply kill more

Doing damage cannot be equalized with taking damage, they are two very different things, in a world where every stat is just 1, hitting an enemy with 1 hp means instant death, if this enemy buys an item with 1 health then it would take 2 attacks to kill him but if he attacks you once then it's instant death for you, this doesn't mean that defensive items are too powerful, it's just how damage works.

Luckily stats vary and the way Riot balances this is by giving damaging champions a TON of damage and scalings but then... if you have 15 AD and 10 hp and your enemy has 5 AD and 15 HP, you win, your enemy needs 2 attacks, you only need one, he's tankier but your damage matches his HP... unlike you though, your enemy doesn't have AD scalings but what if he had HP scaling?

You: 10+5 AD / 10 hp

Enemy 5 AD + 5 per 15HP / 15 HP

Then both of you are on equal grounds and the battle is only skill based, the one who finds the way to strike first wins, even if one of you is tankier than the other you both have the same chance to kill the other, this is, in a nutshell, how balance works...

although you might say that tanks shouldn't be killing anyone, I completely disagree, tanks SHOULD be able to kill you, as a matter of fact any champion SHOULD be able to kill any champ when played correctly and that's why skill is the most important factor when comparing two players... if the tank has no clue about game mechanics, it doesn't matter how much defenses he buys, a good player will bring him down while staying pretty alive himself.

Ramen2261 votes

I agree that if it was balanced out then that would be how it works. But at the moment base damage on most tanks and on other classes as well (tank fizz and tank ekko resurfaced). What i mean with damage that scales with tank stats not being an interactive mechanic is simply this: champions that can match your damage while not building any damage items causes you to either build just as tanky, or not engage them. So when the counterplay to fighting a tank is to build tank is a tank meta. But while meta should exist within league, the counterplay to a strategy shouldn't be to play the same strategy, which is the main thing i have a problem with.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

i wasnt thinking that. still am not thinking that.

personally i think there are too many variables for the sake of variables.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

I wasn't thinking that.

But darn it, reading that made me think of it.

Doesn't mean I think it's true however.

Ramen2261 votes

But you ARE thinking it Kappa.

CØulrophobia1 votes

Vladimir with 48% winrate is really thing to be crying about. Especialy when 900g is able to counter his entire healing. Along with the fact that he actualy loses to the champions who should be outclassed by him. Looking at Swain and other healing champions.

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