I don't understand the point of taking it away in the first place. I don't want to replace runeglaive just bring back magus so that ap junglers that don't auto attack like fiddlesticks have a place back in the meta. I don't see any disadvantages to this.
Thoughts?
Jungle Lux God14 votesThe advantage of having only one jungle enchant for AP junglers (and for that matter tank junglers due to them only having Cinderhulk) is that the meta isn't decided by which jungle enchantment is better because there is only one option for those champions. In that case, having more options doesn't increase diversity because what diversity you could have is stifled because your options are limited to what is best.
At the time Runeglaive was introduced, Magus wasn't offering much diversity because if you couldn't baseline clear the jungle, you were straight up unplayable in the jungle. This included getting through the early game and not having mana problems in the mid-game. Runeglaive made it so that if you could get through the early game, your were playable in the jungle. However, this does not mean that you are viable in the jungle, and because of Runeglaive's low stats and its niche passive, most heroes didn't become viable in the jungle.
With the new starting jungle items offering a potentially better time in the jungle with more synergistic starting items, Hunter's Potion offering potentially limitless mana sustain in the jungle, and Runeglaive getting a cost increase that makes it difficult to get the item early, it makes so much sense to replace Runeglaive with Magus because Runeglaive isn't fulfilling its original purpose and isn't needed to fulfill that purpose.
junglerboy168 votesThe only flaw in your line of logic is that you forget that the other enchantments for non-AP junglers are also competing to be built.
Having 2 AP jungle items, one of which is weaker than the other and leads to certain AP junglers being stronger than others based on build is exactly the same problem we have currently, except instead of being a question of which item you use more effectively, it is a question of whether you can use it effectively at all. Instead of making certain AP junglers stronger than other AP junglers while still allowing build variance, it instead makes an arbitrary decision for the player based on item synergy.
This doesn't even take into account that the exact same dilemma faces jungle items as a whole, but only seems to effect runeglaive this severely. This is because the other jungle items are very broad in their effects. Any AD fighter can use warrior equally effectively. Any on-hit jungler can use Sated devourer effectively. Any tank can use Cinderhulk effectively. Only about half of mage junglers can use Runeglaive effectively. Since there can't ever be a singular item that works for every jungler (although in an ideal game, that would be the case), the same "either you can use the strong item or you can't" issue will always plague the jungle's balance.
Jungle Lux God3 votesIt is a problem we have currently, and it is exactly the kind of problem we could be fixing by reintroducing a universally acceptable AP item back into the game. Just like Warrior works for all AD fighters and Cinderhulk works for all tanks Magus would work for all mages because their stat distribution is so universally acceptable by just about all AP champions, and it would be so much better than how Runeglaive is so restrictive in the jungle.
LOL Spammer2 votesI don't understand the problem with having both.
Jungle Lux God2 votesSuppose that both are in the game, and assume that Magus is better than Runeglaive. It has more universally appealing stats and is overall stronger than Runeglaive, so why would you have Runeglaive? Everyone is going to build Magus, so Runeglaive might as well not exist.
But then suppose that Runeglaive gets buffed to have an extra 20 AP (to a total of 60 AP), and assume that this iteration of Runeglaive is better than Magus. Now, the best option for your AP jungle item is Runeglaive, but not every champion can use it well. Therefore, the AP jungling champion pool is going to shift such that the champions that are viable in the jungle are the ones that can use Runeglaive well because every other AP jungler is not nearly as good as those that can use Runeglaive well.
These assumptions might seem rather absurd, but it follows the most basic principle of game balance: the principle that a game cannot be perfectly balanced unless all of its mechanics are perfectly balanced for each player. It's impossible to find the perfect balance between Magus and Runeglaive because it's impossible to create balance in a competitive game, and therefore it's only worth having one in the game.
LOL Spammer1 votesBut at least the meta would shift back and forth instead of champions like fiddle never being viable.
Jungle Lux God1 votesIf we had an AP jungle item that was universally usable then Fiddlesticks would probably be viable.
LOL Spammer1 votesBut runeglaive isn't universal.
junglerboy161 votesThat's why Kamquats is saying just remove runeglaive period.
Jungle Lux God1 votesI'm saying remove runeglaive and replace it with magus.
Runeglaive clearly isn't a universal item, but Magus is. Put Magus in, take out Runeglaive, and suddenly we have a universal AP item that everyone can use. Even Fiddlesticks.
Hyrum Graff1 votes[{quoted}](name=LOL Spammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rW3xR9EA,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-28T23:58:18.060+0000)
But runeglaive isn't universal.
Jumping off that, back up a minute to look at itemization as a whole. If we had a million items it'd obviously be way too many. There's some point when the game has too many items.
Having an extra AP jungle item when we could only have one means that somewhere else, there's an item we can't add to the game because runeglaive/magus has that spot.
junglerboy161 votesYes, this is my idea exactly, I actually posted a bigger concept for a reworked magus somewhere else in this thread.
Abyssphere2 votesThe only flaw in your line of logic is that you forget that the other enchantments for non-AP junglers are also competing to be built.
Having 2 AP jungle items, one of which is weaker than the other and leads to certain AP junglers being stronger than others based on build is exactly the same problem we have currently, except instead of being a question of which item you use more effectively, it is a question of whether you can use it effectively at all. Instead of making certain AP junglers stronger than other AP junglers while still allowing build variance, it instead makes an arbitrary decision for the player based on item synergy.
This doesn't even take into account that the exact same dilemma faces jungle items as a whole, but only seems to effect runeglaive this severely. This is because the other jungle items are very broad in their effects. Any AD fighter can use warrior equally effectively. Any on-hit jungler can use Sated devourer effectively. Any tank can use Cinderhulk effectively. Only about half of mage junglers can use Runeglaive effectively. Since there can't ever be a singular item that works for every jungler (although in an ideal game, that would be the case), the same "either you can use the strong item or you can't" issue will always plague the jungle's balance.
What I've never got is the idea that only a few mage junglers can use Runeglaive well. To my eyes every single one bar Fiddlesticks likes it. Yes, Fiddle absolutely hates it, but he's the only AP character suited to jungling that does and it seems like nobody can name any examples beyond him that are crap with it.
Sure you can say "Brand and Karma jungle hate it" but they're not supposed to be jungling and wouldn't have been viable junglers with Magus either so I really struggle to call that a problem. Runeglaive makes (almost) every AP character suited to jungling capable of doing that. It works.
LOL Spammer1 votesSo then what is the problem with having magus as well as runeglaive to suit those other junglers that runeglaive doesn't work with?
Abyssphere1 votes[{quoted}](name=LOL Spammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rW3xR9EA,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2015-11-28T22:24:00.589+0000)
So then what is the problem with having magus as well as runeglaive to suit those other junglers that runeglaive doesn't work with?
I don't have a huge problem with Magus existing, though it seems kinda pointless having it for just one champion (Fiddle). Nobody else who would pick Magus is a viable jungler.
LOL Spammer1 votesMaybe they aren't viable in like higher play but it makes them viable for fun. And maybe having magus would open up paths for new junglers.
Jungle Lux God1 votesIs it really fair to say a champion isn't supposed to be jungling? It sounds a lot like complaints that champions like Annie or Morgana shouldn't be supports even though they obviously can do it well.
Malzahar would be better off with Magus than Runeglaive. Is he not supposed to be jungling? He would certainly be a viable jungler if he had a good jungle item, and even had seen some competitive play in the jungle in previous seasons. Same thing with Karma.
We shouldn't be restricting champions from jungling just because they shouldn't be jungling because the more we do that the less diversity we see.
Abyssphere2 votesIs it really fair to say a champion isn't supposed to be jungling? It sounds a lot like complaints that champions like Annie or Morgana shouldn't be supports even though they obviously can do it well.
Malzahar would be better off with Magus than Runeglaive. Is he not supposed to be jungling? He would certainly be a viable jungler if he had a good jungle item, and even had seen some competitive play in the jungle in previous seasons. Same thing with Karma.
We shouldn't be restricting champions from jungling just because they shouldn't be jungling because the more we do that the less diversity we see.
Yes, it is. I'm not saying champions aren't meant to jungle in that we should not allow them to because it's not intended to, but because their kits were not designed with the jungle in mind (and that takes a specific kind of design) and therefore they're just not naturally good at it.
Morgana became a support because her kit did things supports like to do well. Malzahar will never become a jungler without a ridiculous jungle item that somehow overcomes all of the "junglers need to have this" stuff he doesn't have.
Widder882 votesMalzahar will never become a jungler without a ridiculous jungle item that somehow overcomes all of the "junglers need to have this" stuff he doesn't have.
Malzahar has a very easy time in the jungle, even without T2-T3 jungle item. He takes not much damage because of his voidlings, and he has a great clear speed. But instead of a T2 and T3 jungle item, he needs to buy a Tear, to be able to spam abilitys to get his voidlings. The only problem I have is his low movement speed, so ganking is not easy. But if he is in ult range, he works like Warwick, it is really good. His ganking is like Warwick with low movement speed. Maybe mobility boots are the solution. I'm not a good Malzahar player, but I think he is a underrated jungler.
junglerboy166 votesThe deepest issue with Runeglaive is that the passive is arbitrarily exclusive of certain users.
Warrior is efficient on any AD champion in the game, since they can all auto attack and cast abilities.
Cinderhulk is a good pickup for any tank since the AoE it offers speeds up any clear and the health is a universal defensive stat for any situation.
Devourer can be used by any on-hit jungler, not matter what the majority of their damage is because it acts as a multiplier for whatever else they build.
Runeglaive is bad because only certain champions can synergize with the passive proc, and on top of that, instead of multiplying future stats you gain like devourer, cinderhulk, or Warrior, future stats you gain synergize with it instead.
It is definitely unique and distinct from the other jungle items, but in this case, that is a bad thing. If building it made it so that whatever else you build is improved, then it would be worthwhile. Since it instead relies on a specific play pattern and is only effective if used in that manner, it restricts build diversity and the pool of champions that can actually utilize it at all.
Runeglaive should be 100% removed. Not reworked, not tuned or buffed, just removed. Number changes won't fix the underlying issue it has that it is too exclusive and polarizing as an item. Instead, AP junglers need an item like this:
Presto, AP champs now have an all purpose AP jungle item that allows them to sustain in the jungle and clear a little faster, isn't so strong that mid laners want to use it out of context , and scales with the user regardless of their resource or build, instead scaling directly with their kit; if they have high resource costs, then they get a little more out of the item. If they have low resource costs, they may get less from it but needed less from it to begin with. It sort of levels the playing field in a way, making it so no particular champ can really over-synergize with it.
Jungle Lux God1 votesI like the idea, but I feel like the passive might be unnecessarily restrictive and unnecessarily broad at the same time. This sounds like a paradox, but I have a good reason for it.
First off, refunding 10% of the mana being used for an ability actually might be too small to actually be useful. For example, Malzahar's E costs 120 mana at rank 5, and this passive will restore 12 mana when Malzahar uses his E on a jungle monster, and that isn't good enough sustain to get through the jungle. This kind of passive would favor champions who have low-cost damage spells that they could spam really fast and hurts champions that have dedicated utility spells they need for sustain in the jungle or have toggled abilities they need to clear the jungle. Obviously values can be increased if they are too weak, but this iteration doesn't seem to be too universally favorable.
Next, energy or health costs don't have the same problem that mana does. The problem mana does is that it limits you to either farming your jungle or ganking a lane when you don't have a big mana sustain item, but energy doesn't do that because it regenerates so quickly and health doesn't matter because it's usually compensated by some form of sustain in the jungle that really starts to kick in around the same time you buy Magus.
Finally, adding a bleed effect on monsters is somewhat unnecessary because AP champions can clear fine by the time they get their jungle item. The bleed effect probably isn't necessary because all AP champions need is mana sustain to clear the jungle because their kit already clears the jungle well.
Personally, I think that for all of Runeglaive's weaknesses, I think that the mana regeneration portion of its passive specifically was rather well done. It gives sufficient mana regeneration for the jungle distributed on a need-by-need basis without being abusable in lane. However, it does have some restrictions and some abuse cases, and I feel like Runeglaive's mana regen portion can be salvaged into something more universally usable.
My iteration:
Magus: builds out of Fiendish Codex + jungle item + gold 80 AP 10% Cooldown Reduction UNIQUE Passive: Spending mana grants a buff that stacks up to three times. Dealing spell damage or killing a monster consumes all stacks and restores 8% of your missing mana for each stack consumed. The first stack cannot be consumed until 1 second after it is obtained or until after a second stack is obtained. Stacks do not fall off until being out of combat with neutral monsters for 6 seconds
Basically, this iteration has many of the strengths Runeglaive has without many of its weaknesses. In particular, it has pretty solid stats and has a more universally useful passive, of which is more useful on champions that rely on toggled abilities (due to proccing on mana expenditure) or champions that want to combo their abilities much more tightly than Runeglaive's current passive allows (due to a stacking system and no cooldown on the passive), and it's not abusable by mid laners because it's not usable on lane minions and most champions can't apply it on a single spell cast. Champions with manaless spells that use mana also can't abuse this passive to gain massive amounts of mana because it only applies on mana expenditure, rather than spell usage. Best of all, those that really need it get all the mana regen they need while those that need it less don't get as much from it.
junglerboy161 votesYeah, I like this a lot too.
You bring up some fine points on the issue with mine, however, the whole point of refunding 10% of the resource spent is that it is proportionally just as helpful for any champion in the game. A malzahar who restores 12/24 mana with every E gets proportionally just as much out of it as an Eve getting 3.6/7.2 mana back for every cast of Q. In the end of the day, they are extending their resource pool by exactly the same 10 to 20% total. Of course, champions with purely utility abilities like shields would probably be a bit worse off, like you said, which means it should probably be adapted to something like "any ability cast while in combat with monsters" instead of "every ability that damages a monster".
The main reason I really dislike runeglaive's mana restoration passive is that it offers help exclusively to mana using junglers. That naturally means that it has to be balanced around the gold efficiency of the mana return it gives, which makes it weaker for any non-mana using AP jungler (I know there aren't many, but 
would appreciate that, and there may be others too). I think the mana sustain should be a limited aspect of what makes the jungle enchantment powerful, but it should be enough to help a jungler that needs it.
Magus needs to be strong as an item not because it provides mana sustain because really, that should be something that is left free to the jungler to itemize in; if they need mana, build a morellonomicon. If they need health, build a revolver. If they don't need any extra sustain, allow them to build as they see fit.
Basically, the sustain the item gives should be universal if it is included in the item at all, and it should have an extra passive that is friendly to all mages in the way Cinderhulk and Devourer are universally friendly to all of their users with their unique passives.
Jungle Lux God1 votesThe reason I think it's okay for the jungle item to restore mana and not health or energy is that energy and health don't limit AP champions in the jungle the way mana does because they aren't limited the same way that mana is.
You go Akali in the jungle, use your energy to clear the camps for a full clear, and then you get enough energy to gank effectively. You go Mordekaiser in the jungle, use your health in the jungle, and you still probably have plenty of health left over to gank, especially when you factor in his innate health sustain with his shield. You go Fiddlesticks in the jungle, clear the jungle, and suddenly you don't have enough mana to gank.
Magus needs to have a mana sustain component not to make it better for mana using champions, but to even the playing field between mana-using and manaless champions. The thing about our iterations of Magus is that both items still have good enough stats that mana users can feel good about the item they got without making malaless champions feel bad about picking up an item with mana regeneration.
Silents4294 votesI don't understand the point of taking it away in the first place.
Then don't argue that it should come back, there is such a thing as to many items, and more items in the game means more to consider when balancing any other aspect to the game.
Fiddlesticks needs to be reworked, they are not going to add an item back for 1 champion to benefit from.
My Waifu Vanilla3 votesDespite a lot of mages having decent to good clear times they are unplayable due to lack of an item to work with. Malz, fiddle, brand, annie, ziggs, karth, etc. all clear pretty quick and have good ganks but don't have any items to really spend money on in terms of a jungle item (Malz is the only exception since he CAN go AD but some people prefer AP).
Tbh I would prefer a Spectral Wraith item over Magus or at least give Magus spell vamp on it because it is already insulting that Runeglaive has lifesreal on it (like wtf). WotA 2.0 would probably do fine for most of these Champs when compared to Runeglaive being Lich Bane 2.0. Oh and you say they wouldn't add an item to appeal to a few junglers....when Runeglaive is currently bought by like 3 champions, so your argument is very weak.
Silents4291 votesYour argument is using champions that aren't suppose to be jungling with the exception of Karthus and Fiddlesticks, and even if Magus existed again Fiddlesticks needs a rework, and Karthus wouldn't care either way.
junglerboy161 votesNo, they all used to be accepted jungle picks before season 5, and only because of the screwup on Riot's part with Magus and now Runeglaive are they not worth picking in the jungle. If given the opportunity to fix AP jungle itemization so that it would be less constricting on the pool of useable AP junglers, Riot should take it, even if it means certain champs that you may not deem "junglers" but are actually suited to the jungle get some time in the sun.
Jungle Lux God2 votesJust about every AP champion who would want to jungle will benefit from having Magus as an option instead of, if not a replacement for, Runeglaive because Magus offers stats that AP champions want and Runeglaive can't give because of a niche passive that most champions won't want.
Runeglaive was created to add AP jungling diversity, but it didn't do that, and physically cannot do that because its passive takes up too much of its power budget to create diversity. Magus didn't do that either, but only because it only helped those that could help themselves, and with Season 6 offering new items that can potentially help AP champions in the jungle more in the early game than they ever have had in the jungle, and suddenly Magus seems like a rather reasonable item now.
FistOfSharkiesha1 votesIt works on all AP junglers not just Fiddlesticks. There was a small period in time between Akali being buffed and Runeglaive being added that Akali was a very viable jungler with Magus. Rumble can also work surprisingly well in the jungle with Magus, Mordekaiser pre-rework was great with magus. Karthus was your go to AP jungler when you needed a heavy magic damage influence on your team but other roles were already taken. There are plenty of AP champions that don't want/need runeglaive.
To expect a caster to auto attack every 1.5 seconds is absurd, especially when that's basically their default rate of auto attacking and they're interrupting that by casting spells constantly.
You say there's such a thing as too many items, but AD champions get to choose from cinderhulk, warrior, or devourer and they're all viable choices on nearly every jungler. Devourer Pantheon works great. Maybe not as well as warrior, but better than Runeglaive Karthus. Cho'gath is the only mage jungler that can get use out of cinderhulk.
Kuroi864 votesAs Stonewall008 put it, a three tier jungle start/item tree.
Machete Devourer Warrior
Hunters Talisman Magus Runeglaive
Quillcoat Cinderhulk Spirit of the Ancient Golem
Toss on a unique way each one regens the champ, then give the upgrades unique passives to better separate them from each other.
FantasySniper3 votesWhy not just fix Fiddle?
BluePolarizer3 votesFiddle is now an AD tank.
Is that what you want?
Well, wait until they gut your main.
FantasySniper1 votesFiddle becomes an AD tank... It'll never happen, man. His appearance is nowhere near a tank's, so they'd have to fatten him up with straw to go for that kind of appearance.
BluePolarizer2 votesThey absolutely gutted Runeglaive (a jungle item) due to its synergy with AP Ez mid who still had a lower win rate than many other mids.
Boulderox1 votesi don't understand... riot puts out magus, and ap champs bitched because it gave no mana sustain.,. riot deletes it and makes one that gives mana back.... people then bitch that they want the old one back because it was better.... COME ON PEOPLE... MANA OR DAMAGE pick one....
LOL Spammer1 votesNo, my point is that it should not be one or the other. It should be both, but not in one item. They should have both items.
Boulderox1 votesso magus and runglaive as seperate build paths?
so that makes it so ap have 3 choices.... Cinderhulk, magus, and runeglaive. Where ad has Cinderhulk and warrior. Devourer i feel isn't an ad centric staple as it usually is used to abuse a mechanic of certain champs to get more sustain, more procs of on hit passives and such...
season 5 was all about clearing early, as to which is why it was complained about and eventually deleted.
LOL Spammer1 votesWhat is wrong with choice? Why is it bad to have 3 choices?
Boulderox1 votes3 choices for ap, 2 for ad, and only one for tanks... is not fair technically... It's not like cinderhulk gives MR or amor, only hp, why not make another...
LOL Spammer1 votesBecause all tanks need health. Not all mages need on hit.
Boulderox1 voteswell in some cases defences would be better.
hp only makes 
stronger for instance, and it is the only "tank" enchant
LOL Spammer1 votesHaving just armor wouldn't do much against vayne.
LOL Spammer1 votesHaving just armor wouldn't do much against vayne.
Jungle Lux God1 votesPeople wanted a mana regen item that didn't completely gut the AP jungle item for it. Half the stats were taken off in favor of a tiny bit of mana, a niche passive, and massive amounts of jungle-exclusive mana sustain, and people complained that they didn't have a jungle item that was good for them.
Boulderox1 votesbut do you see the problem... it could have been usable in lane if not for 
abusing it.... so having it be jungle only is really bad anywhere past early clears.... yet the magus was seen as very difficult to clear due to no mana without blue buff.
Casri1 votesI think it would be nice to have Magus back as Runeglaive really doesn't do much for spell-reliant (rather than auto-reliant) especially ranged champs however I have found that due to the introduction of one simple item 
quite a few AP junglers are able circumvent the need to buy a Jungle item, and are in fact much better off than they were in previous seasons.
I have had a lot of success on 
Jungle just building Hunter's Talisman to supplement my jungling ability, then building as I want/as is required for the game.
I suspect this would also be the case for: 
etc.
AL0001 votesmagus is op for most ap jungler.. but really op on amu.. thats why...
cinderhulk is a joke for ap jungler imho...
CoolKnightST1 votesI agrea we need 2 for every group:
or 