With Banner losing ap and gaining 400 mana, we basically have 
as support items with any modicum of ap on them. So why do we bother with scalings on support champs? If we honestly just want supports that want ap to build mid laner items instead, then why have these 4 items with lousy ap values on them? Why not just remove those too?
Like...why?
Orinne3 votes
had AP for no real reason and it had to compete with 
as the MR aura item.
In terms of just support AP itemization, you have to keep in mind that supports run on too little gold to really justify giving them an easy to access AP item that gives over 80+ AP with an amazing utility passive/active. You'd otherwise just get mid laners purchasing said item because they'll have the gold to purchase it quicker. I find it funny that you're even complaining about Banner because for 3000 gold or cheaper, you had so many other options you could've purchased that gave you more AP, including 
.
Sure, banner won't have AP now, but it's 800 gold cheaper with good tanky stats and a boatload of mana for mana-hungry champions like 
and less stat-dependent supports like 
.
Also never mind that support items across the board got anywhere between 100-300 cheaper, the 4 items you mentioned still give 190 AP total, and not having to buy Banner for your AP (which you shouldn't have been doing anyways) opens up opportunities for you to buy whatever mid-lane AP item you want.
chipndip12 votesThe only thing that even vouches for a supportive function out of the 3 items you listed is Abyssal, but enchanters aren't looking to be close enough to use the passive.
You DO realize that there's practically no point in having scalings on supports if everyone's so adverse to having items that use them that are designed for supports, right? I mean, Redemption would have been just fine with 40 ap on that price tag. We got...hp regen...
Orinne1 votesSupports have plenty of AP itemization and it also stacks with heal/shield power, which is the primary method by which supports directly affect their team. Ardent Censer on its own at the moment turns Janna's 240 shield into a 324 one. It takes 120 AP just to do that without any additional shield power, and yet a 60 AP item achieves that for you. After the patch, you can now also stack Ardent Censer, Mikaels, and Redemption for 40% heal/shield (50 with Windspeaker's). Too much easily accessible AP would stack way too well with these items which is why aside from Ardent Censer being unique in this regard, you're making trade-offs in which you can either get high-AP items to increase your base abilities' raw power, or you can get less AP to get more supportive options.
Sure, some supports have interesting tools that scale with AP such as Sona hitting 50% damage reduction, Nami hitting 200 MS on ability hit, etc. but these abilities are usually pretty strong at their base anyways and it's not realistic to play through a game expecting to hit these values, unless you go mid to farm.
My point being is, there's plenty of 'mid-lane' AP items you can purchase for similar gold value that give (far more) AP if all you're looking for is AP. Otherwise, instead of rushing Banner like you apparently do in most of your games, you can build 
instead and decide what you want to do from there. Your ability to support your team through itemization doesn't change at all, you're just swapping out promote/MR aura for a different tool.
chipndip12 votesSo with your whole reply in mind, why on Earth do we have ap scalings to begin with? With the direction Riot's headed, it's being made into a blatantly inferior option. Why bother?
Side note: No, we don't have "plenty" of support items with ap. We have 5, eventually 4. Where on this Earth besides Africa is that plenty of anything?
Orinne1 votesSupports still have AP scaling because you can still make use of it. They're just far less dependent on it than a mage would be, therefore their itemization options don't give them as much.
Riot didn't make AP a 'blatantly inferior option'. They outright made your AP support build about 400 gold cheaper so clearly, they want you to go that route if that's what you want to build, and if you want more AP, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from picking up a mage item or two. You do it now and then on your Sona games so clearly, there's not a problem with it for you.
Lastly, I still don't understand what you're arguing about aside from complaining because you rushed Banner of Command on Sona (which is probably the slowest option if your only concern is AP, Ardent Censer would augment your abilities far better for less gold). Mages wished they had 4 viable armor/AP items when fighting AD assassins, but they only have Zhonya's, yet they still get by fine. You're just going to replace Banner of Command with Redemption or some other high-end AP item anyways.
If you're going to be this dense, then there really isn't much else I can say.
chipndip12 votesSupports still have AP scaling because you can still make use of it. They're just far less dependent on it than a mage would be, therefore their itemization options don't give them as much.
Yet we have TONS of items for tank supports at this point. I don't need 500 hp/50-60 armor items as a tank support because I'm an off-tank that's more focused on utility, but I do need tank stats that work with what I do, which is tank.
In the same light, I don't need 100 - 120 ap per item as a mage support because I'm an off-mage that's more focused on utility, but *I do need ap because it synergizes with what I work with, which is my freaking spells".
Riot didn't make AP a 'blatantly inferior option'. They outright made your AP support build about 400 gold cheaper so clearly, they want you to go that route if that's what you want to build, and if you want more AP, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from picking up a mage item or two. You do it now and then on your Sona games so clearly, there's not a problem with it for you.
They made it 400 gold cheaper and 4 items big. Meanwhile tanks get Banner/Locket/Vow/Frozen Heart/Talisman/Face of the Mountain...basically any other support item in the game that isn't those four specific items is now a tank item.
My issue, if it's honestly THIS hard to get, is that the reason behind having scalings on these champs to begin with is because we're supposed to build ap into them, but the game environment doesn't encourage doing so. If I want to build ap while building a useful support effect, like an aoe mr aura, I have to spend 2.9k gold, which is moderately slow to build like you've pointed out. Once this patch goes through, I'll have literally the same four options. Everything else is a tank stat. For someone like Braum, this isn't an issue because he has options that make sense for a Warden (defensive tank). For someone like Janna/Soraka/Sona, this DOESN'T make sense, especially for Sona when Riot said themselves "Sona's niche is being the support that scales into the late game". With fucking WHAT? There's barely any options in her main role to scale with unless I steal kills to afford a full ap build. Isn't the notion that it takes forever to itemize on support the reason why everything's getting cheaper in the role? Yet we're still saying "Save up 3.2k gold yo!"?
This confusion between word of mouth and actual implementation is my issue. The game environment says "No", but Riot's words between "designing Zyra's rework for supporting" and "designing Sona's mini-rework so that she scales" and even nerfing Soraka's early game healing so her healing is mainly a later game investment say "yeah, we'd like you guys to scale into later stages of the game, no prob!". Shit doesn't add up.
Tormentula2 votesIf you're an AP mid laner playing support your goal is to delete the enemy bot lane.
Why give both power and utility to them? At that point they'd just build the support items. (think preseason when mid lane mages like morg, vel, and karma just took spell thiefs to middle, the item got nerfed hard so that its just support only and burst supports didn't abuse it as much)
If they wanna build a deathcap, let them lose utility, its the only legitimate method of keeping them in balance.. not that they really are.
chipndip12 votesThen just remove the damn scalings so this isn't an issue and buff my fucking bases.
Tormentula1 votesThen just remove the damn scalings so this isn't an issue and buff my fucking bases.
And then they can't go mid cause they're balanced around the support role?
You see the issue, they SHOULDN'T be supports.
chipndip11 votesNo, remove the scalings for the ones that are "meant" to be supports. Janna, Lulu, Soraka, Sona...those kinds. Since everyone's scared of them having accessible ap, there's no need in having room for it, right? So remove it and buff their bases.
Also, where in this thread did I say I wanna go Diana support? Why is it that whenever I say "I'd like more items with X ap for the support role", everyone and their grandma thinks I want 100 ap on a 2.5k price tag so I can play LB support? Why is there no middle-ground on this subject?
WoonStruck1 votesRiot: _Blah blah blah trade-offs blah blah blah. _
Mostly because all of the support items came too late in the game due to the largely inflated costs from the included AP. Now Taric can buy a support item or two instead of tank items without feeling like garbage.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votescuz you dont need tons of ap or damage on any support you need utility and ways to help your team
chipndip13 votesSo why do we have ap scalings on them? What's the point? With this logic, this is useless code and it eats up every enchanter's power budget for no reason.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votessome ap helps but your not meant to get 200+ ap as a support its not needed to use your abilities majority of the supports are supports for utility not damage so their heals , shields etc can scale with ap to make them stronger but if your building 250ap as janna support you are not using her and her kit as designed. but her having 50ish ap makes it work. tanker supports scale with armor and mr or health like leona and braum
chipndip12 votesThat's like saying "When you're Braum, you shouldn't have more than 100 armor".
So it's fine if all supports get tank stats, but it's NOT fine when mage supports, who had their bases gutted for the sake of building ap, build any noticeable amount of ap?
Think of it like this: Nami and Sona both have "X per 100 ap" effects in their kits. Why when no one wants them having more than "50 ap"?
oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votesbraum scales on HP not armor and you dont need 200 ap to use any ability on nami and or sona... your not a damage carry, you are a sustain support with some poke and cc
chipndip11 votesI'm
Not
Saying
I
Want
TO
BE
A
DAMAGE
CARRY
I want a decent assortment of options that build into the main stat I scale with, which is AP. What of my posts are you reading? Is 40 - 60 ap on a few more items going to make me do 700 damage per attack? No. I want to use the scalings my character's designed to use.
Besides, Braum gets HP now with some of these new items, and tanks want both armor and health. No matter which way you spin that, support itemization leans heavily in that direction and very little towards anything else. You're simply evading the point, seeing how you never address it and constantly refer back to something I already denounced time and time again, over and over again. Why aren't there more items designed in the same line of thinking as FQC? Items with a decent amount of ap (40 - 60) with a decent little effect? We have items that give a decent amount of defenses/health with a decent little effect, right? Why is this line of thinking so legitimately difficulty for people when the focus moves from tank stats to ap, seeing how mages desire ap?
oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votesok lets take Sona as an example she normally builds what?
giving 50ap and you get and you are gonna run what ap quints ? so 15ap
and you get which is 60ap and you get 
80ap cuz your SONA
that gives you 205ap in 3 items
do you really need more ap ?
chipndip11 votesAnd you just nonchalantly prove my point by throwing in a 3.2k gold item in there...
oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votesno its an item that has always been built on ap sona but even with out th 80 ap from lichbane you still have 125 ap which is more then enough to be able to heal with W so your point is still invalid
chipndip11 votesYou aren't really thinking this through, are you?
Hell, why should all these items give tank stats when tank supports can just buy tank items, especially when tank items are cheaper than mage items? It's easier to buy a tank item than it is to buy a damage item, so why should these all have tank stats when it's already easier to build it?
Answer: Because 2.9k for health and armor is fucking expensive. IT TAKES TOO LONG TO BUILD. It's the same thing here.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes 2200 gold and give tons of stats with 50ap an active, gold per 10 , cdr and mana regen
that is cheap and even more so if consider the gold income you earn as you build the item
2400 gold for 60 ap cdr, stronger heals and shields , mana regen , ms bonus , and empowered attacks for doing nothing but healing or shielding
why do you need so much ap for a support... see these items give more stats and utility and arent about the AP wanna know why.... ?
supports are about utility not damage
[zombie-brand-mindblown]
chipndip11 votesWhy do tank supports need so much HP and defenses? If I have to run around with 80 ap and "that's enough", why do tank supports get significantly more armor?
BECAUSE THEY NEED IT TO DO THEIR JOB. It's not that hard. You're telling me that, in a game where you itemize with 6 items, I should have only my essential item and one other one actually cater to what I utilize in my kit? Is this a freaking joke?
oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votesyou arent doing damage. you arent tanking damage as sona or nami or raka or whatever else utility support you are in the back line providing heals and shields and oh wait you still get hp, armor and mr as those champs as well when you are a tank support or an engage support you need those stats to do your job and sustain the damage there is a HUGE FUKIN DIFFERENCE
stop crying
Paroe1 votes[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rR5hmPK7,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-19T22:43:50.602+0000)
you arent doing damage. you arent tanking damage as sona or nami or raka or whatever else utility support you are in the back line providing heals and shields and oh wait you still get hp, armor and mr as those champs as well when you are a tank support or an engage support you need those stats to do your job and sustain the damage there is a HUGE FUKIN DIFFERENCE
stop crying
Long ago, supports were actually mages or tanks with high shared sustain or CC. Riot, in their infinite wisdom, rebalanced ALL of the 'true supports' so that their utility, which became what "real supports" were only about. Previously to that change, supports were capable of doing solo lanes because they had actual AP ratios.
When riot created the utility ratios, it was at the cost of damage for most true supports. Lulu and karma were spared the fate of doing no damage ever, and karma has become a fantastic champion to pick into aggressive lanes and lulu is... lulu. shes fallen off the radar. The premise of utility ratios was that AP supports would be BUILDING the AP required to make the utility BETTER than it was before this proto-class rework, as it actually lowered utility across the board in favor of the ratios.
By removing AP from support items and forcing AP supports who arent also tanks (lookin' at you, bard.) to build APC items in order to even be effective at their job riot has created a triple whammy situation in which;
AP support; 
is 160 AP with runes, thats maybe 200. Thats paltry, and not nearly enough for supports to actually scale into the lategame unless theyre super specific like janna or lulu.
Tank support: 
. 200 resistances, 1500HP. they can do their job extremely effectively because the itemization for tank supports is GOOD and it will be EVEN BETTER in the preseason. Knights vow is amazing.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 voteswhy does caits E have ap scaling she dont build ap
chipndip11 votesBecause Riot had the stupid idea of giving ad scaling champs ap ratios so Baron buffs give them a little power on moves that are intentionally designed to not be too strong in their kits outside of utility/base power.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votesactually you are completely wrong about that...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgunSoHMEDk
go educate yourself you
Narvuntien1 votesI typically only build AP on my support if it is an AP support.
I build on 
and on 
and on everyone else I am just building ultility actives.
I really want better armor support items though, hopefully I am no longer forced to build Locket even when the enemy teams fed members are AD, just because it was too powerful. is situational, working best with adcs that don't build a ton of crit themselves.
chipndip11 votesYou're getting plenty in the way of armor, but that's not the point of the thread.
I don't think I should have to build mid-laner items to use support champion scalings. That's the point of the thread.
PPPPPPPPPPPP2701 votesI don't think Riots wants supports to deal damage so shit like Zyra and Brand doesn't become too popular. However, those supports just buy normal AP with just a small budget. Sure they get sightstone and probably frost queen but they then transition to rylais broken scepter and liandry's.
Linna Excel1 votesJust buy an item with AP. You should probably be able to finish at least 1 such item in a standard game.
Paroe1 votesSo i feel like pointing out...
... a lot of supports had their damage and scaling gutted in favor of adding scaling utility based on AP, which is why support items HAVE AP to begin with. If you cant get a minimum of 300AP as a support, you might as well not even have those AP utility scalings that riot nerfed the entire support primary class for...
chipndip11 votesand yet I'm always at odds with everyone when it comes to suggesting even so much as 40 - 60 ap on new items that may or may not be tied specifically to healing/shielding. The only way you'd see 300 ap is if you got 60 ap specifically on 5 items, which is already impossible when 2 slots are a Sightstone and boots. I'm not even arguing for that much, but at least something at all. Instead I get a bunch of wise guys telling me to build a Deathcap.
Athenes Lulu1 votesShield/Heal strength from different items does stack. Just doubled checked that in game and Ardent Censor, Mikael's Crucible, Redemption and Forbidden Idol all stack with each other as intended. They don't stack with themselves, that's the case that's limited.
Shield/Heal strength is intended to be a much more specific effect than AP. Choosing between it and AP on some champs is meant to have some trade offs in terms of protective power versus damage/other utility.
In terms of Aegis our current expectation is that Aegis/Locket will still be really appealing items for enchanters, given it's one of the best MR options for supports and, if used well, the revised Locket active's really powerful. Instead of a 90-345 (by level) point shield for 2s it's a 70-665 decaying shield for 2.5s. Value if just triggered whenever during a team fight should be similar, value if used at the right moment to counter big AOE spells should be noticeably higher.
We've been avoiding AP on Redemption so far because we don't want to make it too niche. Shield/Heal strength already narrows its users noticeably, AP would do so further again. Could probably avoid further narrowing by replacing the Shield/Heal power with AP, that then skews it away from being as much of a protective item though, pushing it off some current users and onto some other new ones.
Knight's Vow is intended to be an item for tanks in particular who want to protect a specific ally.
In terms of overall support item concerns biggest one on our minds at present is whether we've got sufficient CDR availability for tanky supports. Enchanters have a decent range of CDR options, tanks significantly less so. That might not be an issue if their effectiveness and satisfaction come appropriately from other effects like Knight's Vow's unique passives, might be an issue though so we're watching that one quite a bit at present.
For reference.