We got 3 generalist supports...
And only one
is competitively viable, crowding out the
other two
.
When are we gonna fix this again?
And only one
is competitively viable, crowding out the
other two
.
When are we gonna fix this again?
Thresh isn't a generalrist
and sona and nami are both suffering from master of none syndrom
thresh is extremely good at peeling and ccing
but sona and nami just aren't good at anything
they are mediocre at everything and that type of champion just does not work in a moba where you have 4 other players who have their own thing going on
If you have 4 people on your team who are really good at diving
why pick a "generalist" when you can round out your team with a champion who can enhance your teams diving power or cover for your weakness with strong peeling?
or what if you have a team that wnats to stay away and siege/poke why pick sona or nami when you can pick zyra who can catch people out when sieging or janna who can disengage and let your team poke
Thresh isn't a generalrist
and sona and nami are both suffering from master of none syndrom
thresh is extremely good at peeling and ccing
but sona and nami just aren't good at anything
they are mediocre at everything and that type of champion just does not work in a moba where you have 4 other players who have their own thing going on
If you have 4 people on your team who are really good at diving
why pick a "generalist" when you can round out your team with a champion who can enhance your teams diving power or cover for your weakness with strong peeling?
or what if you have a team that wnats to stay away and siege/poke why pick sona or nami when you can pick zyra who can catch people out when sieging or janna who can disengage and let your team poke
Thresh is a generalist:
Shield from his lantern
Peeling options
Engage options
Pretty good roaming potential
Main things he lacks are movement speed buffs and a heal, but just about anything else you could ask from a support he offers.
The real issue with Nami isn't that she's a generalist. It's that she's way too difficult given that. Like, why worry about landing her extremely difficult bubble when you can just shoot an easier to land line that pulls enemies to you? Or sends you flying in to lock them down? Or just drop a silencing circle on the ground? Nami's success case is just way harder to get to in the spot that it counts the most for supports: hard cc.
For Sona, her kit's just upside down and backwards. Literally needs to be ripped from the roots and done over, Poppy style.
Thresh is a generalist:
Shield from his lantern
Peeling options
Engage options
Pretty good roaming potential
Main things he lacks are movement speed buffs and a heal, but just about anything else you could ask from a support he offers.
The real issue with Nami isn't that she's a generalist. It's that she's way too difficult given that. Like, why worry about landing her extremely difficult bubble when you can just shoot an easier to land line that pulls enemies to you? Or sends you flying in to lock them down? Or just drop a silencing circle on the ground? Nami's success case is just way harder to get to in the spot that it counts the most for supports: hard cc.
For Sona, her kit's just upside down and backwards. Literally needs to be ripped from the roots and done over, Poppy style.
namis q is trivial to land when combined with her e
Shes just straight up outclassed by everyone
namis q is trivial to land when combined with her e
Shes just straight up outclassed by everyone
Here's the thing:
That combo is fine during laning, where she can just apply it to herself and then throw a Q. The problem is when the game gets longer, because, just like Sona, requiring squishy mage supports to operate at a range of 550 is stupid. Since her auto range is 550, she loses her E X 1-3 -> Q combo after laning because you can't risk getting that close to do all that nonsense. Also, if she's trying to peel someone off of her/her team, why would anyone want to get into 550 range to throw an auto...for a slow?
So landing her Q after lacing the enemy with E is much simpler, but getting Nami in range to do that safely becomes significantly harder after laning phase, to the point of being a moot point.
Never thresh is going to be support king for ever!!
[{quoted}](name=Your third mom,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rPMfcThd,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-04-15T17:22:48.135+0000)
Never thresh is going to be support king for ever!!
At this point, other supports at least have their niche, so you can beat the Thresh pick by just playing into what you do better than he can.
Sona and Nami, however, are generalists. Thresh is a better generalist. When is Riot going to finally do something about it?
The only thing Thresh can't do is heal. That's why he's so powerful, Riot doesn't have to balance healing around him.
It makes sense given Riot's track record with healing other players in game.
The only thing Thresh can't do is heal. That's why he's so powerful, Riot doesn't have to balance healing around him.
It makes sense given Riot's track record with healing other players in game.
Nami's main issue is that her Q and R, which are her most important spells, are really damn hard to land. Especially Q. If they did a minor rework similar to these class reworks and included Nami in it, they could rework her Q spell into something less painfully difficult to land and she'd be significantly better right off the bat.
Sona needs a complete overhaul.
Thresh is actually fine as is. He has many strengths, but the gains in each one aren't all that great by mid/late game. The issue is that Nami's way too difficult to use and Sona's balanced around stacking items, which is literally the number one thing supports don't do.
is
not a genralist?
disengage
engage
sustain
is
not a generalist?
is
not a generalist?
is
not a genralist?
You could argue for him, but I'd say no.
is
not a generalist?
Hell no.
is
not a generalist?
You could make a stronger case than Alistar, but he's geared primarily towards roaming and global pressure. His kit is sort of limited in value when it's stuck in a lane.
They all have different functions, different things they do best.
Thresh is the best at Engage and making plays, thats his niche.
Nami is amazing at both engaging and disengaging, as well as long lasting fights. She's has the best parts of Janna and Soraka in one, imo.
Sona, not even going to comment. My opinions differ so much from the rest of the boards on her so not gonna bother with it. :P
Thresh has a super high skill ceiling. That's why he's in competitive a lot. Go watch some Remilia or Bunny FuFu videos. Bunny had some insane Thresh plays before and that's probably why they brought him in to replace Lemon when he moved to coach for a while.
Nami's Q is rather nuts though. It really does seem quite hard to land in comparison to any other stun or root. Zyra has a longer range snare that's easier to land with a shorter cooldown, Morgana has a longer q that's also much easier to land reliably with what feels like a shorter cooldown as well and I would call a blitz grab around minions into an E being easier than a nami bubble. It's range is crazy short to me and the painfully long windup is highly telegraphed to the enemy. Soraka has a Q with an obvious windup and telegraph but at least she can spam it.
Nami Ult has always been pretty easy for me. I use it more for disengage than anything really though. To each their own.
Sona is super squishy. She may be an early game savage, but dies off if you can't really stomp lane early to snowball. I'd be nervous to see what Riot would do to her is all since I do enjoy her and she DOES have one of the most expensive skins in the game. It'd j\suck if those that bought her super expensive skin end up never wanting to use her again.
The only reason why Thresh and Braum are more viable than Nami/Sona/etc is because Riot doesn't like Bully Supports because they are "anti fun"
So they made them strong enough to survive lane, and forgot that Thresh/Braum outscale Bully Supports after laning phase and have built-in tankyness.
[{quoted}](name=Silent Reaper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rPMfcThd,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-04-15T17:47:13.872+0000)
The only reason why Thresh and Braum are more viable than Nami/Sona/etc is because Riot doesn't like Bully Supports because they are "anti fun"
So they made them strong enough to survive lane, and forgot that Thresh/Braum outscale Bully Supports after laning phase and have built-in tankyness.
Nami isn't a bully, and Sona only looks like a bully. A real bully lane would be Brand/Zyra/Karma/Lux for support.
And only one
is competitively viable, crowding out the
other two
.
When are we gonna fix this again?
Either directly say what that huge wall of text has anything to do with what I typed or don't bother linking that huge wall of text.
Either directly say what that huge wall of text has anything to do with what I typed or don't bother linking that huge wall of text.
Any champion can be played as a support, there aren't just the three in your original post.
Braum and Thresh are both picked and Soraka also sees play competitively in the bottom lane duo. Not to mention Alistar because, you know...he's a cow. And you can't milk those.
However "Generalist Support" is a hilarious misnomer. Alistar has CC, Tank capabilities, good damage, and a heal built into his kit. How is that not a "Generalist" as you so oddly wish to claim the other three are?
I could even see Karma being called a "Generalist" as she has damage, CC, and a shield(Which is the same as Thresh).
But simply put you're probably not going to see much of a Support Champion rework. They'll do individual reworks more so than anything else(Example: Taric, Alistar, Soraka) and any extensive reworking of Supports will be via the Items they can acquire.
Oh..I'm sorry. That was probably another wall of text.
Any champion can be played as a support, there aren't just the three in your original post.
Braum and Thresh are both picked and Soraka also sees play competitively in the bottom lane duo. Not to mention Alistar because, you know...he's a cow. And you can't milk those.
However "Generalist Support" is a hilarious misnomer. Alistar has CC, Tank capabilities, good damage, and a heal built into his kit. How is that not a "Generalist" as you so oddly wish to claim the other three are?
I could even see Karma being called a "Generalist" as she has damage, CC, and a shield(Which is the same as Thresh).
But simply put you're probably not going to see much of a Support Champion rework. They'll do individual reworks more so than anything else(Example: Taric, Alistar, Soraka) and any extensive reworking of Supports will be via the Items they can acquire.
Oh..I'm sorry. That was probably another wall of text.
Thanks, significantly shorter than the post you linked. I did bother to read chunks of it here and there, so this is basically a more reader-friendly version of that apparently.
Anywho, you make a pretty good point, but Sona/Nami/Thresh still bring just about anything you'd want from your support...or at least most of it, hence why they're called generalists. Those "jack-of-all-trades" picks that do a good deal of everything don't master jack (kek). If someone like Alistar, Soraka, or Janna were comparable to them, why is it that they have their own niches to fill so they don't get crowded out? It's because they aren't generalists like these three are. If Sona and Nami were specified into something, odds are they wouldn't be overshadowed by Thresh like this, but they are. If Sona or Nami were overall better than Thresh due to some change here or there, they would have Thresh's play rate and win rate while Thresh and the other girl out of the two would be the ones losing popularity. The main thing is that if you master one of them, you don't necessarily need the other two, but since Thresh is by and far the best one to master, the other two just get left in the dust.
Another note is that, no, Riot actually does have a clear idea of who they consider as supports in this game, and just because you took Garen support one time, that doesn't mean some other fool in Canada can't use Nami mid lane or Sona top lane...all three of these things are simply not advised. Sona, Nami, Lulu, Janna, and others like them (although it might just be those four) are all in their own sub-class, but I forgot the name that was being pitched for it. Riot could do a support-based class rework with at least Sona/Nami/Lulu in it, cause Sona's first rework was garbage, Nami's difficulty curve is stupid in all honesty, and I don't think they're ever going to get Lulu to be a decent support pick without some changes to her base kit. Still, if you ask me, I'd be against it personally. Sona needs a bigger overhaul than the smaller scale reworks these class updates tend to be.