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Shyvana power level too low, and buggy

Ad Astra per Asp··40 votes·4,207 views

Shyvana had a brief period the beginning of this season considered a viable competitive champion. That didn't last too long due to nerfs. And this was after not being considered a good pick since season 2. She had a bit of time in the jungle and top lane. She was hit with a series of small nerfs that have crippled her to the bottom rung of win rates in upper solo queue and even team play. http://www.lolking.net/champions/shyvana&region=all&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=platinum#statistics http://www.lolking.net/champions/shyvana&region=all&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=diamond#statistics http://www.lolking.net/champions/shyvana&region=all&map=sr&queue=5x5&league=platinum#statistics

She has a great ultimate for teamfights and wombo teams, and a safe split push and laning phase. However, ever since the nerfs to her items, and several nerfs to her numbers and even things like making her targeting box bigger so she is hit by more skillshots, the net results really hurt her.

I tried my best to make her work this season I really did, but even browsing diamond and challenger players she has been relegated and is no longer used by those who would play her. She's just so weak now, from the randuins nerf, to direct nerfs to her W base damages, to early game sunfire cape damage changes, to the blade of the ruined king active favoring ranged champions more than melee, to the spirit of the lizard elder only procing on physical damage, to changes on her E base damage.... and thanks to Aishi for pointing out that they also"lowered her W damage in dragon form by 33% by making it tick every second instead of every .75 second, but keeping the damage per tick the same".

Now that doesn't even include the fact she has a really rough time in all but the best teamfight setups, getting kited after she goes in and if anything goes wrong being left behind to die. If her ult even works as every thresh topside of silver can easily time a whip and knock her out of the sky.

And that doesn't even include her bugs. Her old avatar is displayed if she is in dragon mode. If her fury runs out mid casting her E weird things happen. I have had it double cast and do dmg two times, go weird directions, but most often, it just freaks out and is super delayed and if that doesn't cause you to miss, you'll often get two waves of it that neither do damage. Her E in dragon form also has a shorter range than in human form. For why? Similar weirdness can happen with Q mid animation if fury runs out and you turn back to human while it's going off.

Her jungle is all about clear times and hopefully counterganking. But it's hard to do and takes alot of properly guessing where the enemy jungler will show up. And often times a j4 can just disengage after bursting down someone on your team. She is duelist who can't force people to duel with her, an aoe champion that can't force people to fight her, and a tank that can't peel, and a bruiser with nerfed base damages. She just can't keep up in today's meta and needs a look at. The main reason she was taken for competitive play is her strong laning phase top, that is also safe. But as we all know, it takes more than not doing something bad to win. When it does come time for team fights, her kit is the direct opposite of safe. Anyone with gap closers can kite or chase her, if her ult is down...

I find she works best as a split pusher in her current form, relegated to competing with people better at it like yi, trynd, shaco and even nasus.

36 Comments

TecToNiiC14 votes

She definitely needs some kind of buff. Anytime i suggest one on these forums i get downvoted into oblivion. The part that annoys me most is she had all this excess power from quite a few bugs. They straight up nerf her and fix the extra power in the bugs and just leave it like that. I get she isnt the first champ to get double hit like this but she should be easy to fix. Give some e and w damage back now that the bugs are gone and see what happens.

I am really excited for the s5 jungle and chilling smite as i think this will help her alot. They are also doing their stat rebalancing for all champs for the season so maybe she will get some love there

Gonna keep editing this lol. Half the damn time i wish she had mana so i could just build a frozen heart with RoA combo as every item she uses outside of thornmail has had substantial nerfs. I also really enjoy having a giant sign above me that says "hey enemies my ult is up"

Captain Aishi5 votes

don't forget the part where they lowered her W damage in dragon form by 33% by making it tick every second instead of every .75 second, but keeping the damage per tick the same

honestly i just want them to bring back the 15% armor shred on her E that she had pre-rework, that was so nice

MarhsallLee673 votes

But if they bring back the armor shred, watch as they change back E so that it can only hit one target.

AmightyT5 votes

I think the thing that bother me the most is Riot's total silence on the issue. She hasn't been on the patch notes for an eternity, she was a top pick in professional play and now you see AP Darius in SoloQ more often than Shyv. But no, Riot thinks there aren't any problems.

Ad Astra per Asp1 votes

I think the thing that bother me the most is Riot's total silence on the issue. She hasn't been on the patch notes for an eternity, she was a top pick in professional play and now you see AP Darius in SoloQ more often than Shyv. But no, Riot thinks there aren't any problems.

I agree with this.

Narasimha3 votes

I think you're looking at it the wrong way, this part especially

She is duelist who can't force people to duel with her, an aoe champion that can't force people to fight her, and a tank that can't peel, and a bruiser with nerfed base damages.

Look at it from another angle. She can't force people to fight her, because she'll often win if they prolong a fight. She doesn't peel through defensive abilities, but through shear offense . Assuming your adc doesn't die in .5 seconds, Shy is going to be able to get to their backline and rape their adc, while also damaging their whole team. Want to CC her? Great, thats another cc not used on a carry, a form of peeling right there. And yeah, her damages do kind of have to be low because of what all her kit brings. She has: A double attack, a MS boost + aoe MAGIC damage, %max health damage, innate bonus armor + mr, and an aoe knockback + gapcloser. She doesn't have a single strength, but she does have a lot of versatility. Plus, her clearing speed is still among the fastest of any cha,pion.

Kuroi863 votes

Wasn't she one of the strongest top lane picks last season?

Onika773 votes

Shyv was picked every game for most of season 3, that doesn't count as a "brief" period. There are plenty of other top laners who haven't seen pro or norm play in ages - Yorick, Vlad, Trynd, Shen, Zac, Morde, Poppy, Olaf, GP, Garen, etc, etc. Maybe these guys could get a buff instead of bringing Shyv back to FotM so soon after she fell from it.

WeG3 votes

Shyv was picked every game for most of season 3, that doesn't count as a "brief" period. There are plenty of other top laners who haven't seen pro or norm play in ages - Yorick, Vlad, Trynd, Shen, Zac, Morde, Poppy, Olaf, GP, Garen, etc, etc. Maybe these guys could get a buff instead of bringing Shyv back to FotM so soon after she fell from it.

Shyvana was highly advised against buying in season 3 actually. I picked her up around the middle, again against advise, and fell in love with her instantly. I knew she was a bit sleeper OP, and by the time season 4 started everyone had realized it and she became FOTM. I remember my friends coming over and we'd play 5's and I would continously carry games as Shyvana and we'd always be shouting about the fucking dragons unstoppable. Good times.

Anyway I still find her very usable as my "safe" 1st pick, rush Hydra or Sunfire depending on matchup, outscale then obliterate 1 teamfight. I always build Hydra, I get way more use out of carryvana than tankvana. But after gold I did start building more tanky as people weren't so oblivious.

Ad Astra per Asp4 votes

Shyv was picked every game for most of season 3, that doesn't count as a "brief" period. There are plenty of other top laners who haven't seen pro or norm play in ages - Yorick, Vlad, Trynd, Shen, Zac, Morde, Poppy, Olaf, GP, Garen, etc, etc. Maybe these guys could get a buff instead of bringing Shyv back to FotM so soon after she fell from it.

She was seen as the worst jungler period all of season three, and people gave you confused and worried looks or even raged if you picked her top. It was part of season 2 she was considered good not three. I know because in Season 3 I played her alot and people didn't like you picking her period. There was one player i forget his name who played her, but almost always paired with an orianna and even he too gave up on her. For most of season three sustain and tank and fast clear junglers were not favored and groans were heard if they are on your team. Even tank junglers like amumu tho were favored over shyv because at least they can gank. Anyone without good ganks and jungler was seen as a liability for your team. Feral flare when it was strong gave her a good jungle for a while. But they nerfed that pretty quick too and now feral flare junglers are met with the same groans when picked and it's because best case game will drag on a while if you don't just lose.

Season three was almost all about assassin junglers and those with heavy cc. Even Ali had his hay day.

You could be thinking the ealry part of season 4 she was strong. And she was that was the "brief" period I am talking about. Season 3, let me put it this way I was forced to take her top a few times b/c of people picking jungle after I already picked it because people hated shyvana jungle because her ganks suck and clears meant not much. Your jungle gold sucked either way unless you got kills. I played her top verse the newly released Sejauni and beat her and the Sej was all like "omg who knew shyv top was good". And she was ok but even then she got beat out alot. Her brief glory period was when E got changed. She had a power spike for a while. Then the just kept nerfing her. And again when feral flare came out her, udyr and ww were stomping everyone. But that got nerfed as well as everything else :/

Wasn't she one of the strongest top lane picks last season?

No, see above.

honestly i just want them to bring back the 15% armor shred on her E that she had pre-rework, that was so nice

Honestly the E change really helped her. With waveclear and poke and dealing with tanky targets all three. But they lowered it's base damage and a lot of other changes after that.

I am really excited for the s5 jungle and chilling smite as i think this will help her alot. They are also doing their stat rebalancing for all champs for the season so maybe she will get some love there

That could help but remember all champs have access to it. And what's better than a slow? How about a slow and a stun, or two slows? Remember it's competitive and there will still be those who secure more kills than her as a result. The stat rebalancing seems interesting but I'm not holding out much hope. As it's not champions they are rebalancing just progression. The only change I saw that might help her is regen become % of your base stats rather than a flat addon. She has some of the highest base regen. But I still don't think that will help her late game and moderately early game.

Ale non è male1 votes

Shyvana in late S3/pre season of S4 shifted to top and right now is considered mainly a top laner, so keep pointing out at how she was/is considered as jungler in S3/S4 is pointless. if you want to keep playing her out of her optimal position you can, but then you can't complain she is not effective there and that the changes aren't fair for her jungling when they are clearly made to balance her as top laner From changes she received in July in S3 to S4 nerf(or better the bugfixing on 4.13 and 4.15 patch , Shyv has been one of the best top laners around, and the nerfs/bugfixing she received were deserved for her main position

Boswick3 votes

You forgot to mention that they changed how jungle xp works so that counterjungling is almost pointless.

Kowe The Ewok3 votes

Imho her dragon should grant extra health, just like Gnar's passive.

Or maybe the cooldowns could be lowered while in Dragon form.

No Champ Is Hard3 votes

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1623015128/37169866

i disagree

Ad Astra per Asp1 votes

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1623015128/37169866

i disagree

Since when does a sample size of one ever prove anything? I have games I was 15/3/7 and lost just because she gets kited by their adc and support. You can have good games with any champion it's the trend over time that is telling.

I just feel my plan that was effective to get plat this season shouldn't have had to be "stop playing one of my most played and invested champions because she is at a big disadvantage power level wise".

Jungle Lux God2 votes

If I'm not mistaken, she has a harder time against some of the ranged tops that go top now, and her jungle strengths are not appreciated. A lot of that will hopefully be changed in Season 5 and, depending on whether the Doran's Shield buffs come before then, in the rest of season 4, with Doran's Shield giving a lot of top laners stronger presence against a lot of ranged tops, and the jungle changes in Season 5 will give Shyvana a lot larger strengths as a jungler, as her counterjungling strengths can be valued a lot more than her weaknesses as a ganker.

I also want to say that Righteous Glory will also help her stick to her targets greatly, but since it gives mana I'm not sure how much Shyvana players would be willing to sacrifice for that active.

ShakeandBake3 votes

If I'm not mistaken, she has a harder time against some of the ranged tops that go top now, and her jungle strengths are not appreciated. A lot of that will hopefully be changed in Season 5 and, depending on whether the Doran's Shield buffs come before then, in the rest of season 4, with Doran's Shield giving a lot of top laners stronger presence against a lot of ranged tops, and the jungle changes in Season 5 will give Shyvana a lot larger strengths as a jungler, as her counterjungling strengths can be valued a lot more than her weaknesses as a ganker.

I also want to say that Righteous Glory will also help her stick to her targets greatly, but since it gives mana I'm not sure how much Shyvana players would be willing to sacrifice for that active.

If that was the "issue" there would be no issue. The problem is that she is now weak versus top laners she once was considered a counter to, such as riven, nasus and jax. Shyvana was once a viable pick because of her scaling/tankiness into late game, but because of nerfs there is really no reason to play her.

Matsoman2 votes

I remember picking up shyvana a while back but ended up not playing her because she was so bad in certain comps. Don't forget how easily she gets kited. She's even a subpar jungler just because she builds flare and other champs like Lee Sin or Wukong can farm just as fast and also gank much better. She needs more cc, honestly, with her being a tank and all. I think her E should slow or her Q should stun or something along those lines.

What Is Smite2 votes

Funny thing is they nerfed her even when LCS picked up Trundle as a counter-pick to mundo/shyvana/renekton in fact during trundle's time in the lcs all 3 of the top laners I mentioned got nerfed when it was shown that: yes they do have counter-play being some of the safest top laners there is and that whatever stats they build will still not be enough to keep them alive after being ulted by trundle

Sire Hippington4 votes

counterplay and getting countered by 1 specific pick are 2 different things though...

anyway, there always was more than enough ways to deal with offtanks, they always were rather easy to kite and had trouble vs ranged laners.

What Is Smite1 votes

ok well it was not just trundle who did good against renek/mundo/shyv I'm pretty sure that teams brought in picks such as olaf and some others to deal with those picks also I think the current Jayce that peopleplay in mid could have faired well vs old renek/shyv/mundo

Ad Astra per Asp4 votes

ok well it was not just trundle who did good against renek/mundo/shyv I'm pretty sure that teams brought in picks such as olaf and some others to deal with those picks also I think the current Jayce that peopleplay in mid could have faired well vs old renek/shyv/mundo

I can name you a long list of people who do good against shyv in her current form:

  1. Anyone with true damage it makes her passive and only boost to tankiness alot less useful. Irelia, Darius, and Olaf for example.
  2. Ranged poke mages. Ryze, for example is untenable unless he's bad. Teemo too. Nidalee too even if she's AD. Vlad is very hard to handle one wrong move and you're dead. Lissanadra top. Karthus top. Even Ahri top can wreck your day. Some aren't common but lets just say most every mage top has an advantage against shvy.
  3. Ranged anyone else. Vayne top or even Quinn tho both have to play mindful and careful, it's easily doable if you know what you're doing. As seen by her decreasing win rate the higher up the ladder you go Shyvana is simple to use but not very effective against skilled players because her full kit is run toward you and hope you can get auto attacks off. As players get better at using their tools, as a shyv player you don't really have anything you can do except dodge more skill shots and time your ult so it isn't wasted. A good janna, lulu, or thresh can make it so you never touch the adc once.
  4. High mobility champions. Riven for example. Kha'zix. Riven out trades just because you will spend all the duration of your w trying to auto her while you're stunned or knocked back and she has super long range with her ult. Shyv's main problem in early lane isn't out trading people but making use of the fact you did to secure towers and/or kills. Mobile champions make it near impossible to secure a kill without alot of help. And you'll end up chasing them across the entire map and their teammate shows up or under the tower, in which case you'll feed them kills... unlike say Nasus who can slow enemies so he doesn't have to chase them far or can kill them before they reach safety or instead of engaging by running fast and leaving behind your team can slow a champ and create picks for your team. Moving faster yourself is grossly disadvantaged verse slowing your enemy for every situation but trying to run away. Which makes it better served as a split push or defensive mechanic than offensive sticking tool or engagement tool. Shyv ends up chasing even non mobile champions too far if she tries to secure kills she just can't. tldr; you need a lot of room to secure a kill as shyv, and mobile champions make it near impossible.
What Is Smite2 votes

you are right on all 3 points but I am refering to when Shyvana/Mundo/Renekton were the top tier competitive picks for the LCS and tbh I am really tired for no reason and don't feel like continuing this conversation, #lazyOP

Incognonymous2 votes

She was retarded when every game was "stack health and build botrk", but now she can't do anything. A tank with no CC. A duelist who can't stick to anyone long enough to duel them to death. It always kind of irked me that my dragon form abilities cooldown was tied to human form too. Reeaaaallly limits combo and initiation potential when her transformation is already supergated by cooldown-- a reality unique to her.

I still like FF + Sunfire + Wit's powerfarming with her though.

Kufkus2 votes

I didnt really enjoy shyv being a meta top at all, no one did. Her hard engage is spotty which made ending games hella difficult with waveclear being the meta for mid. Regardless of teamfighting shyv in lane was just dumb. Hybrid damage so it was hard to build against her, and she was just a ball of stats that ran at you with w on and outdamaged you no matter who you were. Just stupid champion design. Oh, did i mention she was also nearly ungankable while denying you cs under tower? right.

chumbler2 votes

The primary problem with Shyvana is that her design document just ended after "Has stats." Numbers are literally all she has, so there's nothing to keep her in the game when her numbers are bad, and literally the maximum you can get out of her is just slamming your face into your opponents and hoping your numbers are big enough. If they are you win, if they aren't you lose. It's stupid design that Riot says they don't like, but the truth is more that she's just not one of the champions they care about.

Ale non è male1 votes

Nope. It's just that her design is: "if you keep autoattacking and deal damage you gain Fury, which give you access to bigger power - aka your ulti that make you one a very powerful duelist -", which is more similar to Trynda design(heck, it require even less management than Trynda since you don't lose the Fury you gain if you stop autoattacking) than to the design of a champ that just has an anonymous kit and has numbers

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

and thanks to Aishi for pointing out that they also "lowered her W damage in dragon form by 33% by making it tick every second instead of every .75 second, but keeping the damage per tick the same".

That was a bug fix. Her dragon form W was dealing more damage than it should have, because it was dealing the damage more frequently. 0.75 versus 1 second on a 4-second AoE means she got an extra tick of damage (5 instead of 4) increasing the potential by 20%.

Yes, it was a nerf in the sense that she got weaker, but she was stronger due to a bug.

In any case, I personally have no problems with Shyvana's niche as a speed jungler, counter-jungler and counter-ganker. Her late game tanky-fighter potential is intense, and it's a lot of fun. I'll worry if she has problems after we've had the post-season changes.

What Is Smite2 votes

If anything I believe that her jungling potential will go up since a 50% slow and her movespeed boost means she (and other cc less junglers) will have a better time when ganking lanes

Rebonack1 votes

I'm still waiting for Riot's remake of Shy that makes her turn into Godzilla in dragon mode.

God is AFK1 votes

Shyvana needs a kit rework, her kit was rushed and is pretty uninteresting as a whole, the only iconic thing about it is her ultimate.

jade harley BARK1 votes

I've had really good and really bad games with Shyvana, but I do believe she needs some tweaks. She can tank nicely, and she can do damage nicely, but it really depends on your build path. I noticed that she's, like Chumbler said, a number champion. Aside from damage/tank issues, she's got some other bugs, such as her joke in dragon form. I'd love riot to take a good look at her.

TeemoHunter13371 votes

rito dont like tanks they boring for lcs $$$

Lunar Lightning1 votes

they need to just make her e and/or w do more damage/ another idea i had was for a ms bonus for 1/2/3 seconds upon landing in dragon form. Also they need to make her untargetable while casting her ultimate

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

anyone tried triforce+ frozen mallet or an epic combo of youmu triforce randuins and atma ?

i dont own her (ill get her tomorrow i think) but i would experiment with those builds

Ad Astra per Asp1 votes

anyone tried triforce+ frozen mallet or an epic combo of youmu triforce randuins and atma ?

i dont own her (ill get her tomorrow i think) but i would experiment with those builds

Frozen mallet hasn't been good since HP hasn't been a good thing. Too easily countered and doesn't make you very tanky without lots of mitigation to go with it. BotRK is so prevalent and even Liandri's and native hp burn abilities that it's stats vs cost ratio just puts you at a disadvantage.

Triforce has alot of wasted stats but is a decent buy. BotRK synergizes much better with her E and Q though than Trinity does and doesn't have any wasted stats. Youmu might be ok if not for the fact 60 to 80% of shyv's damage even with AD items is magic damage so the armor penetration is a pretty wasted stat on her. Atma is being removed but is a bad item anyway.

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