Shyvana changes very underwhelming

Ad Astra per Asp·Dec 10, 2014·6 votes·1,878 views

Shyvana jungle was never that great anyway she went entire seasons being ignored b/c she is a jungler who can't gank. Clear speed junglers who can't gank and can't secure kills to counter jungle will always lose to those who can in the most important stage of the game for a jungler: early game. And what does Shyvana get for her mad clear speeds and reaching a decent end game? Just that, a decent end game. She is no Yi or Udyr or even Warwick or Trynd who will get super strong late game and make a big impact. She was good top because she had game impact top. Your best prayer is counter ganking with her and hope your teammates aren't losing TOO bad or your effort will likely be wasted as your kited and/or they are killed when you don't have the cc to stop it from happening.

Look, Riot. Clear speed is not a valid strategy for a good jungler. Not alone.

Not only that but you NERFED her ITEMS. BOTH OF THEM FOR THE JUNGLE. And then you gave her a small small buff to her jungle clear speed, that even with that buff is slower than it was pre patch.

22 Comments

Bears Dont CareDec 10, 20145 votes

Evelynn Would like to ask why you're complaining about a buff when everyone was affected by itemization changes.

Let alone WW is only good at picking, h isn't super amazing at late game.

Ad Astra per AspDec 10, 20143 votes

No, everyone is not effected by itemization changes. Rangers and Devourer were the go to jungle items on Shyv even pro's agree. Both were hit pretty hard. And if the items were truly the issue and not how they work with Warwick, being as his ult is the best on hit ult in the game, then how come Shyv was unviable even before the patch if these items were so strong?

People who take any of the other enchants will be unaffected and it benefited most counter junglers and ganking champions. Clear speed junglers that like on hit buffs are few already. Sabre is the duelists choice, but for shyv it won't help much as her problem is securing kills, of which chilling smite isn't enough. As soon as you chilling smite almost anyone in the game can use their "gap closer" to run away.

On top of that the buffs are directed at giving her better clear speeds, and what is best for someone who can get great clear speeds? Devourer of course. And what do tanky champions who lack sustain need in the jungle? Rangers, of course. She's in a worse state now than pre patch.

Bears Dont CareDec 11, 20142 votes

No, everyone is not affected by itemization changes. Rangers and Devourer were the go to jungle items on Shyv even pro's agree. Both were hit pretty hard. And if the items were truly the issue and not how they work with Warwick, being as his ult is the best on hit ult in the game, then how come Shyv was unviable even before the patch if these items were so strong?

A large number of junglers relied upon rangers to provide them sustain within the jungle. Evelyn is one who relies heavily upon it as well as a few others due to their heavy mana costs/damage taken. Warwick's ultimate is the only on hit ultimate in the game to my knowledge, and WW does not rely upon ranger's at all. He utilized skirmisher's and devourers. Even then, devourer in itself synergized the exact same way as feral flare did. The real culprit was skirmisher since true damage cannot be mitigated at all without shielding.

People who take any of the other enchants will be unaffected and it benefited most counter junglers and ganking champions. Clear speed junglers that like on hit buffs are few already. Sabre is the duelists choice, but for shyv it won't help much as her problem is securing kills, of which chilling smite isn't enough. As soon as you chilling smite almost anyone in the game can use their "gap closer" to run away.

What jungler prefers chilling smite over trailblazer? Or poacher's and skirmisher? Very, very few. Trailblazer was used primarily for the low CD, and the sustain it provided and that will most likely not change.

The reason for that was chilling smite in itself was only feasible for those lacking CC, and even then it lasts only 2 seconds and you really need to be within reach of the other opponent to reach it. So you take trailblazer, improve your clear speed/have sustain that way you can gank more often rather than gank less with chilling smite. Those who use on hit chose skirmisher's, but even a few such as yi could utilize trailblazer's, and WW will most likely use trailblazer's since they gutted his already abysmal clear speed.

On top of that the buffs are directed at giving her better clear speeds, and what is best for someone who can get great clear speeds? Devourer of course. And what do tanky champions who lack sustain need in the jungle? Rangers, of course. She's in a worse state now than pre patch.

Everyone who used devourer is in a worse spot. Everyone who use trailblazer; which is the majority of junglers; is in a worse spot. Shyvana is no exception to it but at the very least she has exceptional clear speed to help mitigate the damage she takes. Yes her damage is no longer going to be as high since devourer lost 15 of its magic damage, but she didn't lose an AS steroid, and had the CD on her twin bite reduced as well.

Shyv got nerfed but she is still in a decent spot compared to other junglers who just aren't viable.

WeGDec 11, 20141 votes

Fiora has an on-hit ult btw.

I'm very confused on why anybody is taking trailblazer on Shyvana. She has a great clear already without it, it's meant for people with slow and less than optimal single target damage, not for AoE monsters like Shyvana who should always max W(burnout) first.

Another thing I've noticed that nobody has said anything about as far as sustain... Maybe you guys should try running lifesteal quints? I use lifesteal quints for my junglevana and it works great. Another thing I found out earlier this preseason is 40% CDR Shyvana means you can keep burnout up indefinitely as long as you have something to auto-attack. That's a lot of speed, and a lot of damage.

Quit trying to play season 3 or season 4, we're in season 5.

Bears Dont CareDec 11, 20141 votes

{quoted} Fiora has an on-hit ult btw.

Ah yes, I forgot about that.

I'm very confused on why anybody is taking trailblazer on Shyvana. She has a great clear already without it, it's meant for people with slow and less than optimal single target damage, not for AoE monsters like Shyvana who should always max W(burnout) first

Oh you underestimate trailblazers then. Trailblazer's will give you sustain and allow you to gank more often and more quickly. Basically its stacking your already great clear speed and making you back less often. That is why ranger's trailblazer is so good. Chilling smite? Not as good late game and doesn't give sustain. Skirmisher's? Only if you are a pick champion and only a few utilize it effectively. Ranger's? It did everything. Even counter jungling like poacher's.

Ranger's literally gives you everything you want, it makes the jugnel s4.

Another thing I've noticed that nobody has said anything about as far as sustain... Maybe you guys should try running lifesteal quints? I use lifesteal quints for my junglevana and it works great. Another thing I found out earlier this preseason is 40% CDR Shyvana means you can keep burnout up indefinitely as long as you have something to auto-attack. That's a lot of speed, and a lot of damage.

No one wants to run lifesteal quints because early damage is very, ver yimportant. For example, a champion such as Evelynn doesn't want to run it because it hinders her bursting capability. Shyvana can get away with it simply because she is Shyvana, she isn't going to burst anyone, and she relies more on the onhit items. Similar reason why you would ruin attack speed runes on Warwick instead of AD runes.

Quit trying to play season 3 or season 4, we're in season 5.

Stupid statement is stupid. What does a jungler do? Secure objectives. Help the other lanes, hinder the other jungler.

Trailblazer let you secure objectives more quickly, let you gank more often, and could be used to counter jungle. Ergo, it got nerfed. Let alone that lifesteal quints/spellvamp quints aren't as helpful in late game. You're trying to approach it from a new angle and saying "oh hey season 5, new things don't be ll s4", but you're gnoring the fact that people try to optimize and look for ways to increase their impact on the game.

It is why AP champs run hybrid pen marks over AP marks. So on and so forth.

WeGDec 11, 20141 votes

You act as if I haven't run at least 50 games this preseason with Shyvana jungle trying to find the most optimal path/build/masteries/etc. Truth is I have. In fact before this patch, my most effective mastery setup for jungle shyvana was 9/0/21. Crazy right? But it worked wonders. The lifesteal quints give you the sustain you don't have from trailblazer, and also gives you the option of a mini-exhaust smite/point and click slow, both which are very attractive on Shyvana.

I already explained why the lifesteal quints ARE effective late-game, especially on Shyvana since her ult requires you to hit things to charge it.

With my build I've got 3-4 slows not counting red buff, making it pretty easy to stick to anybody in the game. Exhaust always, Omen always, botrk situationally, and chilling smite situationally. Your argument against chilling smite is it doesn't give sustain, that's what the lifesteal quints are for.

Like I said, I've tried a lot of different setups, and the most optimal I've found is what I've stated, being skirmishers-devourer/hydra/botrk/omen/BV/zephyr, and Iron elixir.

Your 1v1 and 2v1 potential is absolutely ridiculous, your splitpushing is absolutely ridiculous, your ganks provide more than just a meatshield, clearspeed is ridiculous, and your teamfights are pretty damn potent(If you can convince your team to draw teamfights to the jungle, and lure the entire enemy team into a narrow lane, activate burnout, ult over all of them, E all of them, then Q-1(tiamat), you have REAL potential for a 1v5 penta.

I'm not downing anything your saying, I'm just giving you my personal experience that I have min/maxxed to this point.

WeGDec 11, 20141 votes

I wanted to chime in before I get flamed for suggesting lifesteal quints. Shyvana's ult buildup is done by auto-attacking and time, right? My normal teamfight goes like this- Dive in, exhaust carries, unload my combo on a squishy (if I can reach, if not then frontline), and make a decision on how things are going.

If we win and my presence is no longer needed to secure the objective (tower for example), I counterjungle the enemy, securing exp/gold, denying exp/gold to the enemy, healing up due to my lifesteal from Quints/Tiamat or BotrK, and build my ult back up.

Then rejoin my team with my ult back up and fully healed.

coppinslingerDec 11, 20142 votes

We were playing the same game?

Warwicks late game in patch 4.20 was horrifying. WW scales tremendously with levels, items, cooldown reduction, and devourer stacks.

Come late game, not only were you tanky due to frozen heart and spirit visage and insane healing, but you also probably had at least 200-300 on-hit mixed damage from Blade and Devourer + 40% extra attack speed for 10 seconds to boot. Not to mention the true damage from smite. Late-game Warwick could 1 shot your ADC with ult-smite-Q then 1v3 your top, jungle, and support because they simply couldn't out-damage your self-heal.

Last patch I literally 1v3d (at 45 minutes) an enemy Jinx, Zed and Shyvana and was still at 50% HP, it was ridiculous.

Granted, I don't think WW's late is nearly as godly this patch due to all the nerfs >.< But it still probably is okay if you don't get kited to hell.

Bears Dont CareDec 11, 20141 votes

We were playing the same game?

Warwicks late game in patch 4.20 was horrifying. WW scales tremendously with levels, items, cooldown reduction, and devourer stacks.

In terms of level? WW actually is in the middle in terms of late game scaling. CDR is built primarily for his ultimate which drops down to 48 seconds at max rank. Many other ultimates drop down to a similar time or even lower when CDR is built There are also many champions who scale tremendously with items. WW, however, is reliant on those on hit items to scale.

You are behaving as if WW's behavior was not the same before 4.20. He used feral flare, wit's end, botrk. Guess what the damage on feral flare was? Yeah it was devourer.

Skirmisher was the only new item. If WW wasn't a problem before, then obviously the issue was late game.

Come late game, not only were you tanky due to frozen heart and spirit visage and insane healing, but you also probably had at least 200-300 on-hit mixed damage from Blade and Devourer + 40% extra attack speed for 10 seconds to boot. Not to mention the true damage from smite. Late-game Warwick could 1 shot your ADC with ult-smite-Q then 1v3 your top, jungle, and support because they simply couldn't out-damage your self-heal

Um...no...he couldn't/ There is no way for WW to outheal the incoming damage. His passive is the equivalent of 30% life steal once he is 18. That is essentially saying that an ADC can out tank 3 people at once when they've built enough life steal. It's just not true. If you manage to 1v3 someone, the other team was exceptionally bad.

Whenever I have faced anyone with functioning brain, the best I could do was pick out the adc then get stunned/die after when focused. WW does not survive 1v3's, he doesn't have the tools to do so unless you stand there trying to face tank him and not using any abilities.

WW is in a worse spot than he was before 4.20.

Meep ManDec 10, 20143 votes

Farming faster = More gold = More Items = More Kills/Less Deaths

Ad Astra per AspDec 11, 20143 votes

You're gonna have to farm a LONG time to match the 300 gold plus 2 150 gold assists bot lane just got while you were farming. Oh, and a turret. And a dragon. I estimate if they all went afk, you'd catch up after about 5 minutes. Of course, they won't be standing still, they'll be getting more kills and objectives because they're way ahead of you. There's no way focusing on clear speed will win you games, and her stats for today show her win rate even lower than before the patch, confirming my judgement.

WeGDec 11, 20143 votes

Looking at your match history from today, it seems you also favor trailblazer+devourer and BotrK. I understand the synergy between the two, and I build BotrK myself when they have a lot of tanks. When they don't, and sometimes even when they do depending on how the game is going, try Tiamat. Tiamat is ridiculous with Shyvana, it always has been and I've always liked it a lot more than BotrK with her.

Also, try chilling smite and challenging smite, I prefer challenging smite for the 20% reduced received damage, it helps 1v1's immensely and that little bit of extra damage does wonders.

Even more so also, I understand your platinum and I'm only gold, but ever since I bought Shyvana mid season 3, I've never once run flash on her. If I wanted a movespeed ability, it would definitely be ghost, for the burnout synergy. But personally I prefer exhaust/smite, and I really think it's the best way to run her.

My ideal build end-game would be Skirm/devourer - Hydra - BotrK - Omen - Banshees Veil - Zephyr.

If they are CC heavy I'll get merc treads after tiamat/hydra, if they are autoattack heavy Tabi, if not zerker greaves work great with her cleartime + ult building synergy.

Don't knock it til you try it.

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1660806759/31668401?tab=overview

Earl EulrichDec 11, 20142 votes

mh, if you go devourer you might aswell get a Wit´s End, it´ll add a lot more dps and burst than anything else for the money (hydra is great on her, no doubt - but for jungling it tends to be a tad expensive early on mostly if you´re not really far ahead).

WeGDec 11, 20141 votes

I've tried Wit's end on Shyvana so many times, and the only time it ever worked was when I was so far ahead it wouldn't have mattered what I built anyway.

MAZZ1M0Dec 11, 20141 votes

I do a similar build. My favorite build before pre-season was Feral Flare, Tabi, Hydra, and Sunfire. I'd usually go Visage and Radnuin's after that. The problem now is that (I usually go Stalker's Blade as the chilling smite makes for glorious and frequent ganks) the devourer enchantment costs too damn much for not enough return. Shyvana needs the attack speed somewhere, but it takes so long to build it it stonewalls you from building up the defense she needs to survive since she is almost entirely stat dependent in fights because her kit is so simple. I've been trying my best to multi-build after Stalker's Blade to mitigate the defense and mobility issues, but unless you can land an early gank the price of the Devourer hurts so much you need a damn bottle of morphine next to your mouse.

The Chilling Smite is nice, but Exhaust also got the job done. Now that they've nerfed Devourer, it's worth even less and there is no final jungle item worth anything to Shyvana. The problem then is that without the gold increase the Blade provides, gold gain becomes even more painfully slow than it is. She's now feast or famine (not quite on Hecarim levels, but c'mon.) The W buff doesn't make up for the indirect nerfs. Shyvana needs cheap access to an attack speed item without sacrificing gold gain and there isn't an item that fulfills that atm.

Earl EulrichDec 11, 20142 votes

I think you really underestimate her abilities to go around the map and manipulate creepwaves...it´s ridiculously hard to fight against a team with a good Shyvana that constantly keeps everything pushing against you, so your windows for getting objectives/fighting get really low. It has always been her biggest asset, even when she had been part of the toplane meta.

chumblerDec 11, 20142 votes

The Shyvana changes are stupid and low effort from Riot. Rather than address the core problem that Shyvana doesn't do anything other than have numbers, they just add more numbers to her in a completely arbitrary and stifling way and are just waiting to pretend that she was just being slept on and they're geniuses for these stupid buffs.

xJLx MCHammerDec 10, 20141 votes

I agree

They should have made all dmg to monster increase by 20% not just Burnout dmg.

Ad Astra per AspDec 10, 20141 votes

Unlike nasus top having a bad early game for a jungler is terrible and game changing at plat+ play. A jungler with no early game impact is bascially gonna lose the game. And she has no real way to be an early game jungler. The only way Riot should try to focus her as a jungle champion would be a complete kit rework. Her kit wants to be top lane. Not in the jungle. Clear speed is a terrible asset unless combined with sustain and CC. The worst worst part is, even if she gets lucky and her team isn't way behind because she can't gank and her counte rgank and counter jungle is weak too, what is it she is holding out for? Udyr, Yi, Trynd, Nasus, even singed and other hyper carries will have way more late game impact than her. Even before they nerfed her top, if she didn't have a huge huge early game impact she would lose late game. She just isn't that great late game and never has been because her teamfights unless paired with someone like Orianna are just bad. She will get kited, and she can't peel.

WeGDec 10, 20141 votes

I've got to disagree. My first game after the patch with Shyvana, I got a penta and we steamrolled the opposition and I was able to feed my ADC and get myself fed. Shyvanas clearspeed is her entire advantage and has been for a long time. Max burnout then Q, and powerfarm the jungle only go to lanes if they are literally hitting your turret. Your advantage comes around the 20 min mark, when you should be a level or 2 higher than the enemy.

My first game I was actually level 16 when the enemy support was level 10. Of course this isn't going to happen every game, but when it happens it's very pleasing. People are screaming that Shyvana has horrible ganks early game, but I find the exact opposite to be true. I always always always run exhaust/smite on Junglevana, and my level 2-3 ganks are surprisingly potent.

The trick is you need to have people that can either A: hard CC or B: do a lot of burst damage when you gank. She's a situational pick, she always will be.

Ad Astra per AspDec 11, 20142 votes

Except, your bot lane is gonna die, or your mid, or your top even. And then other champs will be snowballed and you lose the game. In the rare case your team is pushed to their turret and you can gank bot effectively sure. You can win. But most games the team is either mid lane or your team is over extended and you can't do much to help or stop their ganks.

I didn't say it's impossible to win with Shyvana. Even 3v5's are WINNABLE sometimes. That doesn't mean she is balanced. And one game a fair stat is not. If I look at todays win rates they're even worse than before the patch. Which confirms what I already knew.

WeGDec 11, 20141 votes

Ok. Well I've played 3 games since the patch and I was Shvy twice, and the other game the enemy had Shyv, and all 3 games the team with Shyv won. I know all the negative situations that can result from her being in a game, beleive me I've played her a lot. But on the offchance you do get ahead with her, she's a monster. It's just not gonna happen every game.