Mocking shout doesn't make any sense on Tryndamere.

Critkeeper··4 votes·734 views

Why does it reduce attack damage by 80 and movement speed by 60% for 4 seconds? Thematically. I mean, how does Tryndamere mocking you reduce your ability to do damage? How does debuffing your ability to do damage even fit him as a champion?

As it stands Tryndamere's mocking shout can be used preemptively in lane to deny his opponent the ability to win a trade that they very well ought to win, like against renekton or riven full combos. Its just a lot of power, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing but if a champion is going to have a lot of power in one ability in his kit, you want to make sure that the ability really underscores what makes that champion unique and also has counterplay of some kind.

I don't think a damage debuff fits Tryndamere's identity and it certainly doesn't have any counterplay (the AD reduction applies regardless of which direction his enemy is facing). Aside from that it contributes to Tryndamere's ability to choke out his opponent as they try to farm at the tower by making them lose cs to the tower, which is a form of denying, which RIOT has always tried to keep out of league (remember gangplanks old deny?).

Wouldn't it make more sense as a taunt? (not for a whole 4 seconds lol) I mean he is mocking the enemy champion, wouldn't that make them want to retaliate? The big argument against mocking shout as a taunt is that a taunt denies the enemy the ability to react with abilities, and that would remove a lot of counterplay during that time. But really think about the counterplay of the current implementation of mocking shout-- you can't really fight him because of the reduced AD and you can't run if he tags you with the slow.

Atleast a taunt has a health cost, namely the amount of damage that you can do to tryndamere during the taunt with your auto attacks. The duration would certainly be much much less than 4 seconds, and certainly wouldn't allow him to put out more hits on his enemy in the lane than the current immense 4 second slow would.

Another argument against taunt is though the current mocking shout can deny enemy csing directly through ad reduction, taunting someone can do the same thing. Obviously in order for mocking shout to not suffer from the same problems that it currently does it would have to have some kind of condition attached that the enemy can play around or atleast anticipate. For example, perhaps it only works against people tryndamere has recently damaged, that way he can't just deny you from csing at the press of a button with no other investment.

I think if it worked as a conditional taunt it would shore up some of his overbearing weaknesses in team fights and turn him into a playmaker, so that we could see more of him being an active participator in team fights. For example you could initiate a team fight by flash spinning through an enemy team and lock them down with a taunt for a short duration.

Here is the current mocking shout:

RANGE: 400 COOLDOWN: 14

Active: Decreases surrounding enemy champions' attack damage. Enemies with their backs turned to Tryndamere also have their movement speed slowed for 4 seconds.

Attack Damage Reduction: 20 / 35 / 50 / 65 / 80 Slow: 30 / 37.5 / 45 / 52.5 / 60%

Here is the version I'm suggesting:

RANGE: 400 COOLDOWN: 14

Active: Taunts enemy champions that have recently been damaged by Tryndamere's auto attacks or spinning slash. (within 3 seconds)

Taunt duration: 0.5 / 0.75 / 1 / 1.25 / 1.5

2 Comments

67chrome2 votes

As it stands Tryndamere's mocking shout can be used preemptively in lane to deny his opponent the ability to win a trade that they very well ought to win

LoL, no.

If you use an ability and win a trade, your opponent wasn't going to win that trade. You can't expect champions to abstain from using abilities.

As for the proposed changes:

Tryndamere has no business using Taunt CC.

Giving that to him is both thematically awkward and removes the relatively fun interaction it has. For the thematic part - Taunting is specifically a tank type of CC. You actually need to build defense for it to be useful. For the interaction - turning around to nuke him in the face with CC when you think he's going to cast it is a fairly fun interaction. You can, like, use you're won cheap abilities to allow you to win a trade you should have lost against him when he does that. Like Kai Strike or Ruthless predator - laying down some damage right before the debuff, then walking away while the barbarian king is CCed.

As for indirectly denying - you can smash someone's face in with CC when they go in for a CS on anyone. You can also shield and heal minions with certain champions like Karma and Alistar, but generally speaking what you're talking about is the legitimate strategy of zonning, not denying. Protecting minions or debuffing opponents to mess with their CS isn't the same thing as flat out killing your own minions.

Critkeeper1 votes

If you use an ability and win a trade, your opponent wasn't going to win that trade. You can't expect champions to abstain from using abilities.

I don't expect them to abstain from using abilities. I'm saying that when renekton has a (+ 225% AD) empowered ruthless predator ad ratio and you reduce his ad by 35 with a rank 2 mocking shout, you just effectively reduced the damage of the spell by 78.75.

And now consider the ad ratio of cull the meek, slice and dice, and auto attacks. Mocking shout is far more powerful as a tool for winning trades than people give it credit for.

For the thematic part - Taunting is specifically a tank type of CC. You actually need to build defense for it to be useful.

He can make himself immune to death for a short duration, his damage increases as his health decreases, and he can heal quickly in lane. "Taunting is specifically a tank type of CC" is narrow minded and the notion that you have to build defenses to make good use out of it is just an unfounded assumption.

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