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New Unholy Grail passive on PBE

KoKoboto··1 votes·1,306 views

So this item is pretty lame compared to other support items. On paper it seems like wow I'd want it everygame but it's just lame especially when you have options like Ardent Censer... Anywho the changes are

Athene's Unholy Grail: Ability power lowered from 40 to 30 % Base Mana regen increased from 75% to 100% Cooldown reduction lowered from 20% to 10% Blood earn rate increased from 20% to 25% Passive renamed from Harmony to Dissonance [Removed] No longer gives 25% Base Health Regen for every 25% Base Mana Regen [New] Now gives 5 ability power for every 25% Base Mana Regen Cannot coexist with Harmony

So with the new passive, assuming it stacks with itself you get 50AP on the item. Now I'm guessing you want an aggressive support build to make use of blood passive but I'm gonna go meta. This one seems pretty meta:

item 2301 item 3174 item 3107 item 3190 item 3504 item 3693

So with this build you get a total of 250% base mana regen from other items, assuming it's all like whatever... You gain 50ap from redemption, eye of watchers and ardent censer.

So Athene's overall will give you 100AP if I did it right. This coupled along with the blood earn rate increasing sounds pretty viable. Supports like Sona, Nami, Lulu, Rakan, Karma might consider getting it. Also maybe mid laners like Orianna maybe if they get base mana regen stuff. The fact that Ardent Censer is often way better than Athene is lame.

On a side-note Dawnbringer Riven hips are ridiculous.

13 Comments

Zoms3 votes

I was really excited for this change until I saw "Cannot coexist with Harmony". It means that even if this turns out to be a great item on some supports you will still be forced to ignore it if your team really needs the cleanse from Mikael's Crucible. I suppose it is possible to get both but that probably isn't worth it if you don't get any benefit from the passive. I honestly don't know why they added that, I doubt it would have been too strong.

The new Redemption heal seems kinda busted lategame if you get all of the "increase heal and shield" effects. But seeing as it is weaker early game and requires a support to reach lategame it might still be fine.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

I was really excited for this change until I saw "Cannot coexist with Harmony". It means that even if this turns out to be a great item on some supports you will still be forced to ignore it if your team really needs the cleanse from Mikael's Crucible.

I mean, the Harmony isn't all that great a passive as is so its not like much will be missed.

I suppose it is possible to get both but that probably isn't worth it if you don't get any benefit from the passive. I honestly don't know why they added that, I doubt it would have been too strong.

The reason it because it would make it too optimal to get it with all the healing/Shielding power items. Currently grail and Miklaels share the same unique passive as is, making getting both feel very bad/redundant.

The new Redemption heal seems kinda busted lategame if you get all of the "increase heal and shield" effects. But seeing as it is weaker early game and requires a support to reach lategame it might still be fine.

The current problem with Redemption is that it is always the right option to get and is always the best thing to get first. if you have to invest a whole bunch to get the most out of the item, it should be fine.

Zoms2 votes

Yes, currently they share the same passive, but were not talking about the current Athene's. It would still require a support to reach full build to get all of those items so I don't think it would be broken. And even if Harmony isn't that good we don't know yet if that's the passive that will be disabled, seeing the wording on Athene's makes it seem like Dissonance will be disabled since they've yet to add a text to Mikael's.

I completely agree on the Redemption part.

Abyssphere2 votes

The Rioter behind the Athene's rework has confirmed that Harmony will be disabled if both passives are in your build.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, currently they share the same passive, but were not talking about the current Athene's. It would still require a support to reach full build to get all of those items so I don't think it would be broken.

A support having All that AP AND regen would be broken. i shutter to think of Soraka with that shit.

It's not like the items are mutually exclusive either. It just disables harmony passive if you have dissonance passive.

And even if Harmony isn't that good we don't know yet if that's the passive that will be disabled, seeing the wording on Athene's makes it seem like Dissonance will be disabled since they've yet to add a text to Mikael's.

yes we do. I tested it myself.

Zoms2 votes

It's not like the amount of AP is insane, if anything it's what supports needed to give them a more viable way of getting AP without buying mage items. Soraka would have some trouble getting blood charges and the rest of the supports don't have as much need of health regen so I think it would be acceptable. I just dislike that they are trying to put a limit on the enchanter items that there already aren't that many of, especially since they are shifting some support items more towards the tank supports at the same time.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

It's not like the amount of AP is insane, if anything it's what supports needed to give them a more viable way of getting AP without buying mage items.

yes and that is fine, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want the AP, you gotta give up the regen. You can't have all that aggression AND all that safety at the same time. you gotta make the choice between the two.

Soraka would have some trouble getting blood charges

No she wouldn't . Not only does she collect them easily with Qs but she also would be getting more of them easier thanks to the conversion being made into 25% and with all the AP she will be getting making her get even more stacks at a higher rate. But lets pretend she did for the sake of the argument, so what?

You are missing the point here. The thing being scrutinized is the fact that she will have a butt load of free regen on top of in combat regen by dipping into both items.

and the rest of the supports don't have as much need of health regen so I think it would be acceptable.

wait so lemme get this straight. Your reasoning for why the passive SHOULDN'T be disabled by Dissonance is because Supports supposedly don't need the regen all that much? Are you reading yourself. Logically, if they don't need it that much, then not only is giving it to them the last logical thing you wanna do, because you are essentially giving them free excess power for no reason, but it makes yoru entire position fall apart, as it makes your insistence that they get to keep it utterly contradictory.

If they don't need it tat much,. then it stands to reason that you have no reason to complain that it gets disabled.

I just dislike that they are trying to put a limit on the enchanter items that there already aren't that many of, especially since they are shifting some support items more towards the tank supports at the same time.

it's not Like item 3190 will be outright bad on enchanters. It is still a shield and therefore still interacts with Heal/Shield power. it just wont be as good on them as it is on Tanky supports.

the limit exists for 2 reasons.

  • 1 it would be broken.
    1. it would make it the most optimal build that you have to use very game on every enchanter. The restriction makes it to where perhaps some other option would be equally or more appealing given the scenario.

And again, it is hardly that bad a limit, as you claimed yourself how Harmony wasn't that big a deal to itemize towards.

Zoms2 votes

Seeing as I don't think any of the passives are insanely strong I don't think it is unreasonable to allow both of them to be active at the same time. Especially since both require you to finish your build until they truly kick in and even then all you get from it is some AP and health regen, hardly anything gamebreaking.

The point with Soraka is that she will be getting an item that she can't fully utilize due to her being unable to gather blood charges as easily as other champions such as Sona, Nami, Karma and Lulu. This means that even if she benefits more from the regen passive she won't benefit as much from the blood charge system, thus somewhat balancing it out.

Even if I don't think the passive is strong that doesn't mean it's useless. And if it isn't useless then that means they will be worse of not having it which I think is unnecessary. And it's not free excess power since you still have to pay for the item. I wouldn't mind seeing them replacing it with something that was more beneficial and if that was strong enough to put a limit on it, I would accept it.

Locket isn't the only item, Zeke's will lose it's AP and the effect seems better on aggressive tanks than enchanters. And even if it was that doesn't make my point irrelevant. There is still a lack of items that are made for enchanters and their full builds usually consists of the same items every time, simply due to the fact that no other items are available. Even if Redemption and Locket are first buy, by the time your build is done you've gotten nearly all of the options. That is why I dislike putting this kind of (in my opinion, unnecessary) limiter on the few items that actually exists, especially when one of them has an important active that you will almost be forced to buy against some teams.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Seeing as I don't think any of the passives are insanely strong I don't think it is unreasonable to allow both of them to be active at the same time. Especially since both require you to finish your build until they truly kick in and even then all you get from it is some AP and health regen, hardly anything gamebreaking.

I highly disagree.

The point with Soraka is that she will be getting an item that she can't fully utilize due to her being unable to gather blood charges as easily as other champions such as Sona, Nami, Karma and Lulu. This means that even if she benefits more from the regen passive she won't benefit as much from the blood charge system, thus somewhat balancing it out.

This is blatantly untrue.

Even if I don't think the passive is strong that doesn't mean it's useless. And if it isn't useless then that means they will be worse of not having it which I think is unnecessary.

So literally u just wnat to hav your cake and eat it too. ok.

And it's not free excess power since you still have to pay for the item.

it is free because by opting for Athene's you are explicitly trading Harmony for dissonance via completing the item in of itself.

What you are suggesting is the equivalent of having Steraks passive and maw passive at the same time.

I wouldn't mind seeing them replacing it with something that was more beneficial and if that was strong enough to put a limit on it, I would accept it.

Locket isn't the only item, Zeke's will lose it's AP and the effect seems better on aggressive tanks than enchanters.

That is because this is to compensate for the changes to Athene's as it now holds the job of providing AP to Supports and Zeke's no longer need hold that burden, of which it didn't fulfill all that well to begin with.

That said, the change doesn't even make it outright unusable by them, it just makes it better for champions that wanna get on top of the enemy.

And even if it was that doesn't make my point irrelevant.

it literlaly does.

Your poitn is based more on your feelings than logic.

Your point is "i don't like it" as opposed to "it makes sense".

There is still a lack of items that are made for enchanters

item 3174 item 3107 item 3504 item 3222 item 3190 item 2301 item 3092 and if you really want to item 3116

That is more options than assassins get. You are blatantly incorrect here.

and their full builds usually consists of the same items every time,

you just described every class of champs in the game.

simply due to the fact that no other items are available.

other items are available. These are just the more sensible options for them to opt in to. ....unless you wanna claim assassins only have 2 item options.

Even if Redemption and Locket are first buy, by the time your build is done you've gotten nearly all of the options.

??? supports, already only have 4 item slots (3 if you dotn combine their support item with SS) There is far more items available to them than 3, Enchanter, Catcher or Warden.

That is why I dislike putting this kind of (in my opinion, unnecessary) limiter on the few items that actually exists, especially when one of them has an important active that you will almost be forced to buy against some teams.

So basically, you don't want to have to actually make any choices or decisions in the matter? If the passive that you yourself claim is mostly superfluous, is so important that it makes buying Mikael's out of the question to you if you have Athene's then I really don't know what to tell you.

it is quite frankly an incredibly petty complaint that, again, is purely based on emotion than logic.

You give up a passive you yourself claim doesn't matter for 20 AP, 20% Heal/Shield Power, , and a 60% Stronger Redemption.

And somehow this is a deal breaker for you. Somehow this makes it completely unreasonable. [zombie-brand-mindblown]

i mean, logic be damned, [zombie-brand-clap]

Zoms2 votes

It's not free since you've paid for the both passives and you only get one, how is that free? Buying both doesn't convert one into free stats, it removes it. Yes, Sterak and Maw share this problem but unlike these item there are several others that can replace them. Same goes for Rapid Firecannon and Statikk Shiv.

I would say that mages, tanks and marksmen has a lot more options for them. Assassins still has few items available and I think that is also a problem. Assassins having a problem does not mean that enchanters doesn't have a problem.

I wouldn't count Rylai's as an item that's very good for any of the enchanters, most of them already has some kind of CC tied to their damage abilities or enough CC in their kit to make the extra slow irrelevant. Meaning that with sightstone and boots there is room for 4 more items (unless you want an open spot for control wards, which is something a lot of people don't do), and there are only 6 available. I wouldn't say that that is a lot of options, even if you count the Rylai's you forcefully threw in.

On the contrary, I want to be able to make as many choices as possible, how can you not get that? That is why I want as many items available as possible. That is why I want them to work well together without restraints. Putting a limiter on them makes the builds less variable since some items are worse if both are together, If there were twice as many items that were viable I wouldn't care at all.

It is not based on emotion, it is based on the lack of items available and my opinion of whether or not the combined passives are too strong. Clearly we disagree on even the basics of this subject so I doubt the continuation of this discussion will be worthwhile, if it even is a discussion at this point. Have a good day.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

It's not free since you've paid for the both passives and you only get one, how is that free?

it is the same passive, the same way Lifeline on Steraks and Maw are the same passive. The same way Triforce and Iceborn are the same one.

it's just a naming convention for thematics.

Yes, Sterak and Maw share this problem but unlike these item there are several others that can replace them. Same goes for Rapid Firecannon and Statikk Shiv.

??? What other item can give me a Magic Shield when i am low HP?

I would say that mages, tanks and marksmen has a lot more options for them. Assassins still has few items available and I think that is also a problem. Assassins having a problem does not mean that enchanters doesn't have a problem.

You're missing the point here. The point I am making is that your claims are compelled unreasonable here. Just because there isn't 12 items dedicated specifically for enchanters does not mean they only have 3 itemization options. There are plenty of options for them that are great on them even if not specifically tailor made to be most optimal for them and them alone, and to effectively pretend this isn't true is dumb.

Whats more and more to the point, none of this even matters because it isn't a justification to say that the both effects should overlap, since it doesn't make getting both outright unviable or even close to a bad move.

I wouldn't count Rylai's as an item that's very good for any of the enchanters, most of them already has some kind of CC tied to their damage abilities or enough CC in their kit to make the extra slow irrelevant.

Literally just Lulu and Janna can't reasonably use it.

Soraka Sona Karma Nami greatly benefit and make good use of the item.

I wouldn't say that that is a lot of options, even if you count the Rylai's you forcefully threw in.

As compared to what?

On the contrary, I want to be able to make as many choices as possible, how can you not get that?

No. What you want is simply to "fix" a petty pet peeve. This case is no different than the rage passive on Cleaver vs Triforce. or Ravenous Hydra Vs Tytanic Hydra.

it's the same passive but it acts slightly differently. In this case, one gives you HP regen for your Mana regen while the other gives you AP for it instead.

That is why I want as many items available as possible. That is why I want them to work well together without restraints.

So yea, you just want your cake and to eat it to. You don't want to have to make choices and do give and takes. You don't want to have to think about what you want or need in the given situation. You just want it all without restrictions. That is straight up what you are saying.

To claim that this makes the items outright incompatible is blatantly disingenuous.

Putting a limiter on them makes the builds less variable since some items are worse if both are together, If there were twice as many items that were viable I wouldn't care at all.

If you honestly think the HP regen that you yourself stated you don't care about makes getting them together unviable, then it is quite frankly impossible to argue that this isn't based purely on your emotion.

It is not based on emotion,

it literally is.

it is based on the lack of items available

There are plenty of items available. not that it matters because it wouldn't be a justifiable reason to say that they should overlap regardless because it doesn't make getting both a completely unfeasible prospect.

and my opinion of whether or not the combined passives are too strong.

If you think stacking Both hydra's would be balanced, idk what to tell you.

Clearly we disagree on even the basics of this subject so I doubt the continuation of this discussion will be worthwhile, if it even is a discussion at this point. Have a good day.

oh i love this one.

When the proponent has 0 arguments left, they instead choose to duck out of the discussion instead while they have the chance as opposed to having their viewpoint challenged. <_>

if i had a dime for every time i saw this one.

Meep Man1 votes

I don't usually buy Mikael's anyways as someone who I would consider buying Athene's on. If they have decent AP ratios, I'm making use of them usually after I get me some Redemption.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Actually, with the locket changes, you probably aren't gonna be getting Locket every game on Enchanters anymore. it's still good, but not an every game purchase.

With that said, the extra ap and CDR being lowered is imo enough to make item 3174 a good item to buy. the extra MP5>AP scaling on top of that makes it great if not amazing.

50 AP is essentially a whole other item in terms of Support itemization.

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