Swain' s Transformation

Decrit··3 votes·566 views

TL;DR: would you like to keep Swain' s transformation?

The reason i ask this is that making a whole new model, that follows the same animations of Swain, is costly. It is even more costly if you consider that the job has to be done with all the skins, and i was wondering how the community felt about that.

Now usually that' s not a big deal - it is an extra effort that has to be done because the champion requires it so better crack the neck and get stuff done.

But if you look at Swain in this case, you see that the transformation is meaningless itself. It's not like Nidalee or Gnar where the kit changes a lot and so a new model is necessary - is not even like Shyvana, where the kit remains somehow the same but the model communicates the additional power of the character.

If Swain had not the transformation but a particle like Karthus' Defile ( the E), it would change basically nothing gameplay and information-wise. But, we know, savage bird mage going rampant is cool. But is worth it if that delays any work done on him, not only skin-wise but also gameplay update wise?

What are your thoughts on that? Would you rather see it gone, see it changed in a way it incorporates more on an humanoid form or having the kit changed around the transformation?

EDIT: i also add that something similar to this is true for Zyra too, only that she does not need a visual upgrade and that the models can be actively used for something better.

17 Comments

OurLestrade3 votes

It's part of what makes him badass. Instead of being a cowardly little fairy mage that blows you up and teehees away before the fuzz catch on he turns into a massive cannibalising bird that's gonna run up to you and eat your face off.

Decrit1 votes

I agree it feels badass but can he be badass in other ways? He summons flocks of ravens to eat you out, that sounds badass enough even without transformation and without the need of being like "hell yeah i am a master strategist so i am gonna eat your face!" xD

OurLestrade4 votes

I've always felt that was kind of the point. In the lore he's a smart and cunning tactician, but in the heat of battle he's a berserk monstrosity :P

Decrit3 votes

Uh, nice point here. I always felt that he was more controlled and more mastermind-ey but what you said makes sense to me.

ModKnightsKemplar3 votes

You are right, given the assumptions you make. I think your assumptions are too hasty, though.

Swain's model is old. But frankly, his animations are good, and I would argue they are great for his bird form. I really think they nailed the look of a bird demon thingy's movement. After his visual update, I actually find that his model is up to par. No pizza feet, not too much detail, etc. I think they did a great job, and I don't think it needs a lot of work.

If they were going to rework it, for sure, I think the discussion becomes more valuable. As it is, I doubt they will, because he looks okay. If his kit gets updated in a way that necessitates a new model or animations across the board, maybe we talk about the transformation.

As it is, the transformation is CRUCIAL for game clarity. It is not clear to a new player AT ALL that his power has changed THAT dramatically if they don't see that kind of crazy change. It NEEDS to be that clear. One of the frustrations I have with Karthus is how easy it is to miss that he has on defile, but that's helped somewhat by the fact that he should always have it on when someone is in range. Not true for Swain, since he can run out of mana so quickly. It needs to be immediately recognizable to friends AND foes that Swain is/isn't transformed, especially if that changed in the last second (because CDs). Even with the way it is now, I constantly have people misunderstand how it works, and whether or not I can transform at a given moment.

TL;DR As long as his transformation gives him that much power (and costs that much mana), it needs to be a model change for the sake of clarity.

Decrit1 votes

welp, honestly the least thing i imagine while looking at Swain while transformed is that he deals damage on an area around him :P i had to educate myself on that.

If that is the point then making the particles clearer, that are already unclear by themselves, would benefit a lot better don' t you think? It does not even show the range it afflicts, not even hints at it!

I agree that he does not need a VU so soon however, there are worse offenders out there for graphical fidelity and clarity. But i wanted to ask this "what if" scenario because the situation here is extreme - players have an attachment to this, either based on objective values or not, and developers might have others, tied to production times and opportunities. There shall come a time where this matter is going to be faced, and i was curious to know what' s the matter beforehand.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Hmm. Interesting perspective. I do think it's clear, even if you don't know the mechanism, that he's much more threatening in that state, much like Shyvana. If we're going to compare to another League champ, she's the best by far, imo, and I think it's a decent strategy on both of them.

But yeah, you're right. His transform is a huge part of his appeal to his fan-base, and there will be much whining on these boards if they change it. Whether or not Riot cares about that is a different matter. For me, I like it, but I'm not married to it. What I DO care about is that the gameplay matches the lore, and that the lore is not crap. If he's supposed to be a demon-bird man in the lore, he should be one in game, too. But if they change the lore, the model should change with it.

Nanuk Pihoqahiak2 votes

What I like about his transformation is how deceptive it really makes him out to be. The other powers that be present in Noxus might see him as a senile old man or even just a cripple that boasts. But behind the curtains? They don't know a thing. His political ties to The Black Rose. The reason he keeps his bird with him. And when they find out, it'll be too late...

... dun dun DUN!

Yes, he should keep it.

Decrit1 votes

Damn fine point. Probably that' s the most sound reason to keep the transformation... lore wise.

But if it is done poorly gameplay-wise and has such a burden, there is at least a better way to convey that?

Nanuk Pihoqahiak1 votes

I think his ultimate is actually pretty cool with his CURRENT kit. If I had to reimagine it for a new Swain, I'd picture it something like:

Ravenous Flock - 30 second cooldown. When Swain activates Ravenous Flock, all of his abilities are enhanced for the duration. Something like 5-10 seconds to give him a burst of power during a fight while also being burdenous to his manapool. It may also retain the sustain he gains while in proximity to enemies. I feel that he's a strong lane bully that actually has weaknesses he needs to compensate for currently and that's a good thing.

Decrit1 votes

Basically something more like the Heimer' s ultimate, but for more spells?

Nanuk Pihoqahiak1 votes

So let's say he kept his current kit with that new ultimate. He might get something like:

Enhanced Torment - Torment now jumps to a nearby enemy when its duration expires.

Something to spice up and give him a window of opportunity to lay down punishment. During his ultimate, he'd also have the ravens and everything sustaining himself. I know this is all vague, but I'm half awake currently.

AngelFrost001 votes
  1. Why da heck isn't swain in the huge mage they said he'll get improved :C
  2. I wan't realistic swain changes and visual updates so swain looks more evil than old grandpa with stick beating children.
  3. Zyra is one of the "HUGE MAGE UPDATE" Including Velkoz Vladimir Brand Cassiopeia Malzahar
Decrit1 votes

they said grandpa Swain needs more work than a poor man' s update like the mystic 6 :C

But don't worry, when they will do it he will be FABULOUS. Or hella wicked. Probably the latter.

Also i know about Zyra and the thread is not about her or the update, just something i wanted to bring up to better clarify what i do mean.

Titanium701 votes

Im my opinion Swains whole charater and playstyle is defined by this Ultimate Transformation.

As a character Swain is this old mastermind, someone who is expected to stay behind and controll his army (like Azir). But Swain is different. The demonic powers within allow him to actually take the lead and be the front line! To achieve this change in style he NEEDS to tranform and become a massive thread noone would ever underestimate.

This character is reflected by his playstyle: A Swain in his human form will always stay behind. Trying to Poke and catch people out of position with Neverhit. As soon as he gets the opportunity Swain completely changes his actions - he will throw everything he has into the battle. Every HP and Every single point of Mana. He has no way out, no mobility, that's why he has to win the whole fight and to calculate something like this in the first place, he needs to be the tactician he is. ^^ To make such a drastic maneuver visible, the (by the way really awesome) transformation is the only real solution!

A Swain without this Ulti won't be Swain at all... that will be a completely different champion. (An old fragile looking man just cant be a front line ^^')

Decrit1 votes

I don' t agree on the playstile thing - that is something that every character must have in this game, since it is half based on strategy itself :P else we would have Olaf with only 4 skills called "SMASH". Which honestly is pretty much near to the truth, but that' s another matter.

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