Let's talk about Shaco

TequilaZombie··3 votes·2,222 views

We all know Shaco needs a rework. Riot is even working on him right now (well kinda).

We also know that Riot will probably screw the champion if going for a Poppy level rework or leave things unchanged with a Garen level rework.

So I want to hear the comunity regarding what are their thoughts on Shaco. Both from Shaco players and from people that play with or against him.

With some organization regards the subject, is much more likely that Riot will listen to the player base than it would be with posts afterwards saying that the rework sucked.

Anyway, just vent it out your problems with Shaco.

EDIT: Shaco mains, also let us know why you love him.

EDIT 2: I'm not asking if Shaco should stay the same. Even though I'd like that, Riot employees already told us multiple times that a Shaco rework is coming eventually. What I'm asking is which changes would you like to see on his kit.

43 Comments

Shac Norris4 votes

First: KEEP HIS ABILITY TO OUTPLAY.

Second: KEEP both AP and AD scalings

Third: for the love of god don't nerf the fucking AP scalings like you do every single fucking rework (Sion and Poppy being the most recent). I like having different ways to play a certain champion, Shaco serves that purpose really well.

Forth: His boxes are too squishy, they get 1 shotted by EVERYTHING starting from early-mid game, make them a 1½ hit or 2 hits to break.

Fifth: Red trinket fucks AP Shaco in the ass big time, make it so that his boxes are either only disabled for 1-2 seconds and revealed, OR they're disabled but not revealed (you can see them, but can't hit them (like invisible champs revealed by red trinket). I would prefer the second option.

Sixth: His clone doesn't have dragon buff, wtf is the point of enemies being able to see your blue/red, but not dragon buff, it literally makes no sense to leave it like that, the buff is PERMANENT...

Seventh: When you Ult+Q, enemies shouldn't see two different clouds, they should only see one, for outplay potential.

8: Shaco is a mysterious being that nobody really knows or understand, KEEP IT THIS WAY. I swear Riot will make him a demacian or some shit if they rework him, or give him some retarded title like ''evil clown'' (they did this with the Mordekaiser rework)

9: He needs some kind of way to deal with enemies who are TOO tanky, especially his AP side, maybe lower damage on his E and add % hp

10: His Q's crit is useless for AP Shaco, maybe add some AP Scaling on that, with so many ways to build MR, and it being extremely effective, it would allow Shaco to keep up with other mages in terms of damage, and not be useless until late game.

11: Shaco's boxes still don't proc any damaging passive (thunderlord's decree, liandry's, deathfire touch...) While Heimer's turrets and Zyra's plants do.

A cool mechanic would be to be able to switch between yourself and the clone, confusing the heck out of the enemies, Or have your Clone throw a shyv when you do (dealing little damage or none at all, just for outplay potential)

That's all i can think off right now, I had some great ideas for a Shaco rework, but i forgot most of them..

I used to be a dedicated AP Shaco main, with 370k mastery with almost only AP Shaco, but then everybody started building tanky and AP Shaco lost his place, he needs some love. I'd spam him all day everyday if they gave him the rework he deserves, but i can't help but think that RIOT will fuck him up and make him some kind of new Fiora (because of his backstab passive's potential)

As for the ''getaway'' you talked in your post, i always take Stormraider's Surge on Shaco. Try it, it's simply an amazing mastery. I lost count of how many times ive been able to get out of a sticky situation thanks to it's massive slow reduction and movement speed boost.

Anyway, what are YOUR thoughts on what i wrote?

  • Shac Norris, a sad AP Shaco main.
TequilaZombie2 votes

Damn this was big. I'll try to keep it short. EDIT: I failed.

First: KEEP HIS ABILITY TO OUTPLAY.

Second: KEEP both AP and AD scalings

Third: for the love of god don't nerf the fucking AP scalings like you do every single fucking rework (Sion and Poppy being the most recent). I like having different ways to play a certain champion, Shaco serves that purpose really well.

Yep. Yep. Yep. Couldn't agree more.

Forth: His boxes are too squishy, they get 1 shotted by EVERYTHING starting from early-mid game, make them a 1½ hit or 2 hits to break.

Fifth: Red trinket fucks AP Shaco in the ass big time, make it so that his boxes are either only disabled for 1-2 seconds and revealed, OR they're disabled but not revealed (you can see them, but can't hit them (like invisible champs revealed by red trinket). I would prefer the second option.

Have his boxes work more like Jhin's traps, being untargetable. This would shift a bit of his early jungle clear power (not much, as they would still be stackable) and make him a bit more reliable later on. He would offer more in team fights, as his W would become a delayed version of Swain's Q, offering some zone control, at the cost of a more risky early game in the jungle due to monster aggro. This would also make him more useful in mid lane, as mages wouldn't be able to one shot your boxes from afar.

Sixth: His clone doesn't have dragon buff, wtf is the point of enemies being able to see your blue/red, but not dragon buff, it literally makes no sense to leave it like that, the buff is PERMANENT...

Seventh: When you Ult+Q, enemies shouldn't see two different clouds, they should only see one, for outplay potential.

Two needed QoL buffs. I'd add even a orange puff when the clone blinks to your location.

8: Shaco is a mysterious being that nobody really knows or understand, KEEP IT THIS WAY. I swear Riot will make him a demacian or some shit if they rework him, or give him some retarded title like ''evil clown'' (they did this with the Mordekaiser rework)

Keep his lore intact. Adding a little more information is fine, as long as it doesn't touch his origins or motivations. Hell, put him as the one pulling the strings behind all the Bilgewater event, as being the reason why Thresh came out of Shadow Isles. Adding a little more to his from after we got to know him is fine. Adding a little more to his personality through interaction is good as well.

9: He needs some kind of way to deal with enemies who are TOO tanky, especially his AP side, maybe lower damage on his E and add % hp

I don't really like it. Mostly for two reasons: 1- Assassins should struggle against tanks. 2- Because I like your next idea too much. Adding both would be overkill.

10: His Q's crit is useless for AP Shaco, maybe add some AP Scaling on that, with so many ways to build MR, and it being extremely effective, it would allow Shaco to keep up with other mages in terms of damage, and not be useless until late game.

Proposed Q: Crits for 160/170/180/190/200% +(1% for each 10AP) and adding 100/120/150/180/220 + (50% AP) on top of that. This should make both AP and AD Shaco have a similar engage pattern, while encouraging an hybrid build.

11: Shaco's boxes still don't proc any damaging passive (thunderlord's decree, liandry's, deathfire touch...) While Heimer's turrets and Zyra's plants do.

QoL change. Much needed. What I hate the most on Shaco support is that his boxes don't grant him the poke gold from neither the mastery or the support item.

A cool mechanic would be to be able to switch between yourself and the clone, confusing the heck out of the enemies, Or have your Clone throw a shyv when you do (dealing little damage or none at all, just for outplay potential)

Cool concept, but might prove to be kinda OP. Could be tested, though. Maybe make so if they switch Shaco is stuck with his clone health and vulnerability until one of them die.

As for the ''getaway'' you talked in your post, i always take Stormraider's Surge on Shaco. Try it, it's simply an amazing mastery. I lost count of how many times ive been able to get out of a sticky situation thanks to it's massive slow reduction and movement speed boost.

I love that mastery. I tend to use it when I'm confident in the lane I'm about to face or when I know I'll be able to avoid the enemy CC with it. Otherwise TLD just for making sure things stay dead.

Anyway, what are YOUR thoughts on what i wrote?

You proposed quite a lot of cool ideas. However I'd change some core things on Shaco.

I think too much of his power is stuck on unreliable skills. His abilities total base damage at level 18 is 1570. To give a base for comparassion Talon has 900. Zed is a math mess, but it's around 800. Kha'Zix has 996.

However that base damage is reduced drastically when we take into account that 760 of that is on the full five seconds of his box and another 600 is on his clone explosion, both unreliable sources of damage.

His kit needs a shift in power.

A quick suggestion that just came to my mind:

Q - Direct buff and CD nerf.

Crits for 160/170/180/190/200% + (1% for each 10AP) physical damage, while adding 50/70/90/110/150 + (50% AP) on top of that.

This should make both AP and AD Shaco have a similar engage pattern, while encouraging an hybrid build. Maybe add a bit more of cooldown. Right now Shaco can have his Q every 6 seconds with 45% CDR. As it's damage is getting buffed maybe the cooldown could be a bit longer, forcing him to plan his engages even more carefully without taking away the Q power that we love (I still haven't forgiven Riot for the range nerf).

W - Complete overhaul.

Instead of waiting for box cooldown, make it stackable like Donger's turrets, GP's Barrels, Teemo's Shrooms, etc. Starts at 2 or 3 and increases by 1 with each point on his ult.

Increased placement range. This could go in one of three ways: 1- Increase static range. Give it about 1000 units and be done with it. 2- A bounce mechaninc sort of thing like Teemo and his mushrooms. 3- A range that's increasingly bigger according to how many boxes Shaco has stacked up to about 2000 units for max stacks (with maxed ult).

I personally like the last one, as it's one more thing for Shaco to control and balance risk/reward.

It is now untargetable just like Nid's or Cait's traps. This means that his early game will be riskier in the jungle, as it won't draw minion aggro. To balance it out, it will turn it in an important zoning tool for team fights that can't be wiped out easily.

For the stealth delay, make it be proportional to the distance that it's placed. Something in the lines of 2,5 or 3 seconds at max range, 1 second at melee.

It now deals damage over time for all untis in it's radius for it's entire duration (unchanged, 5 seconds), as well as applying fear stacks to enemies every second they stay inside to a maximum of 5. The stacks last 5 seconds. Being damaged by Shaco refreshes the duration.

Deals (100 + (20% AP) + (10% Bonus AD) + 5% of the target's current health) magic damage every second for 5 seconds. Covers a circular area with 325 units of diameter. Damage is stackable with other Jacks in the Box.

This should allow Shaco, if he wishes, to chunk a fair bit of health from tanks before a fight starts, assuming his team has the tools to keep the tank in place. The fear stacks will also stack with his next ability.

E - The fear is now here

Works the same way. Point, click, damage. At least when the target has no fear stacks.

When hitting a target that has fear stacks it will consume the stacks to fear the target. Every stack increases the duration of the fear by 0.5 seconds.

Potentially OP part that would require play test to balance: When hitting an enemy with Fear Stacks, Shaco's shiv will multiply and bounce to nearby enemy targets (from 200 to 400 range, needs testing to find a sweet spot), dealing damage and, if the unity hit has Fear Stack, fearing them as well while dealing bonus damage. Granting him his AoE fear.

Original shiv deals 50/90/130/170/210 (unchanged) + (100% AP) + (100% Total AD). Smaller shivs deal 25/45/65/85/105 + (100% AP) + (100% bonus AD). If the enemies hit by the smaller shivs have Fear Stacks, they take up to 25/45/65/85/105 + (50% AP) aditional damage, based on the amount of Fear Stacks.

**R - Quality of life changes. Nerf to base damage. Buff to reliability **

_When using Hallucinate, Shaco is no longer targeted by previously applied pings. Having the HUD counter you is stupid. When clicking on the clone, the HUD will show the exact same as it would with the real one. Additional range for the clone to roam. Still shows no orange puff when teleporting back. We gotta be fair.

Clone is still treated as a minion by the abilities that already treat him as such (Volibear E will still frear the clone and slow Shaco, same for Darius ult). Those ideas buff Shaco already, something must be in check for the sake of balance._

Additionally, uppon Shaco's death, the clone will rage, no longer being restrained by it's inherents debuffs (deals full damage, doesn't take increased dmg anymore), as well as receiving a bonus to movement speed and will chase the enemy champion with the lowest amount of health in it's sight.

Uppon death, the clone deals 150/300/450 damage + (100% AP) to clone units


Damn that was long, might turn it in a new post all together.

Anyway, the numbers are mildly accurate, but might be changed. I balanced towards a final build with 400 AD or 600 AP. The AD build should be doing more single target damage, the AP one should be doing a bit more AoE. However, both of them should have similar playstyles. With a more reliable AoE fear, Shaco should be able to get out of bad spots more easily, without giving him any extra mobility or extra CC.

  • Shac Norris, a sad AP Shaco main.

I'm jealous of your name.

BladeSteel1 votes

If his boxes are untargetable he will lose a lot of his early jungle clear....idk if its worth losing that

TequilaZombie1 votes

He's getting a buff to his base damage, gank potential and to a certain degree, to his teamfighting. I'd say losing some sustain in the jungle is a good trade.

He'd change from using the boxes as pseudo sustain to using them as AoE clears. Should slow his level 2-3 ganks by a considerable amount, just like it would probably reduce some of his safety against counter junglers, but it should be worth it as the boxes would become actually useful past early game.

Shac Norris1 votes

I'll try to keep it short

lol what XD

On a more serious note, i didn't want ALL of the things i proposed to be implemented at the same time, i simply brainstormed for 15 minutes :P

Shaco is no longer targeted by previously applied pings

Just genius. Leblanc could use this as well.

Making his boxes stackable would break him and make him really OP in turning fights around, especially AP, i'd say give lane Shaco a way to CS properly, and remove the boxes ability to being proc'd by minions. I don't think Shaco needs a box stacking passive, i mean he would, but with the proposed box changes that i proposed in my first comment, he wouldn't.

the clone will chase the enemy champion with the lowest amount of health in it's sight

Lmao that would be funny to watch, but the only ''reliable'' way to deal damage with your ultimate would be to die..

the HUD will show the exact same as it would with the real one

I actually like this idea, i wont go in details.. but right now its bugged half of the time, with Shaco's clone having no items.

When hitting a target that has fear stacks it will consume the stacks to fear the target.

I feel like that would be too OP if he could have a free fear just like that, AD Shaco would be completly overpowered (100% crit attack speed Shaco would make a comeback here)

1- Assassins should struggle against tanks.

That is TRUE, can't argue with that, but Shaco, he's a different kind of assassin. If you play him AP and the enemy builds hexdrinker, you deal NO damage, and with the mana regen gone down, Shaco can't keep up with other mages who have more reliable combos. He ALSO can't keep up with adcs that have even the slightest bit of lifesteal (even if building morellonomicon).


As for some other problems that are worth mentionning

1: His boxes focus whoever is closer to them (if a minion procs it, it will focus the minion if it is closer to the enemy champion, even if the enemy champion is in the box's attack range)

2: Shaco's ultimate's explosion radius is too small, there's a delay when you command your clone to go somewhere, causing it to lose terrain while chasing enemies, resulting in it not dealing it's much needed damage.

3: Red trinket basically countering the whole champion (already mentionned in my other comment)

4: Slightly increasing Shaco's boxes attack range would allow them to attack a 4th time, making it somewhat more useful in lane, right now the enemies can just proc them, walk back, and wait for them to expire...

5: Shaco's Q costing 90 mana at rank 1 is cancer. AP Shaco literally can't level up his Q until his other spells have been leveled up (unless you're in a matchup that requires you to constantly dodge dangerous skillshots)

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/fMr8ZwvM-a-17-page-color-coded-shaco-rework-looking-for-intelligent-feedback-from-the-community

This one was quite good, it had a few flaws though, which were highlighted by me and other people in the comments, but it IS a decent concept. Too bad it got ignored by RIOT, the guy literally worked months on that.


As for my name? Hands off :P

I havn't put much time into this reply, since it's late and i'm getting tired (i feel like i forgot to write some important things in this reply but i can't remember them) Anyway, i really hope that RIOT reworks Shaco, but that they don't make it a Poppy-level rework. I would literally quit the game if they removed his core mechanics.

Sincerely, a scared Shaco main

EDIT: His boxes should have AOE damage reduction for teamfights. Want to break all of his boxes? ATTACK THEM.

EDIT 2: With ADCS building tanky and still dealing more damage than assassins, Shaco needs a way to keep up with them, hence all the ''op'' suggestions i posted in my first comment. Not only does Shaco suffer ALOT because of all the tank adcs, but he currently has an outdated kit with no ''passives'' on his abilities other than his E slow with basic attacks.

TequilaZombie1 votes

I have to go quickly, but there's one point that I think it wasn't clear:

His fear is not free. He has to engage enemies at most 5 seconds after they activate his boxes to be able to fear them. The fear would only activate once he E'ed an enemy who has stacks. It's basicly delaying his box fear to make it a reliable way to escape after your combo.

I just feel like way too much of his power is sucked up by his boxes, which are the most unreliable part of his kit.

Shac Norris1 votes

You could literally just put boxes in the enemy jungle, and wait in a bush and exterminate anyone that dares be alone with that fear. Would be terribly unbalanced if after being feared you were feared again.

TequilaZombie1 votes

The box itself does not fear anymore. It applies stacks that can be consumed to fear an opponent when hit by it's shiv.

It's basicly a power shift from his W to his E.

Carry Together2 votes

Just an input : https://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Jungle&sortBy=general.experience&order=descend Check "Playerbase average game", Shaco is really a niche champion : people that plays him seems to really like him as he is now, that is why I don't think that Shaco mains are up for a rework. I might be wrong of course.

TequilaZombie1 votes

I'm a Shaco main myself. I love the champion. However Riot is already working on a Shaco rework. They know he's frustrating to play against, punishing to play as, an inherently flawed in concept. So they do know a simple buff or nerf won't solve the situation.

All I want is to have a decent input from the player base (and for it to be seen by Riot) before they create a rework that destroys the champion, just like they did to Sion.

Shac Norris1 votes

They know he's frustrating to play against

That's what i'm scared of. Invisible champs are ''not fun to play against'' even if they can completly countered with a 75g item.

What i fear is that RIOT will want to remove his invisibility to make it ''funnier'' for the enemies...

TequilaZombie1 votes

They already told the comunity that the plan is to deceive to go unchanged, at least on it's core concept of blink plus stealth.

Great Ozymandius1 votes

I think shaco is a well-designed champion. His assassination pattern is a healthy one -- going in for a kill is risky and he does not an easy escape. His kit also allows for rich game-play patterns while being simple to describe and requiring little mechanical skill. This is the ideal -- when a kit is simple but the gameplay is complex. Instead, Riot has been releasing many champions where the kit is complex but the gameplay is simple (see Ecko). That's a bad design.

Shaco mainly needs bug-fixes and QOL buffs. For example, a range indicator on his ult (so we know when the clone is about to 'snap' back to Shaco) would be useful without changing Shaco's identity or giving him too much power. His jack-in-the box might benefit from a zyra plants treatment, so they aren't accidentally AOE killed in a teamfight. Otherwise, I would rather not have Riot touch Shaco. I hope they learned from Vel'koz update that it doesn't make sense to make changes to healthy champions.

They absolutely should not change his q (blink plus invisibility) and should keep the clone. Minor changes to the clone (e.g. having the clone throw a 0-damage shiv when Shaco throws a shive) are acceptable. They also should not turn the 'e' into a skill-shot. Adding mechanical difficulty to champs is a shallow way to increase the skill-cap of champions. What is nice about Shaco is that his skill cap is entirely about decision-making.

MrEnder2 votes

Shaco is the only champion that works more on mind games with your opponent than pure abilities tankyness or damage =\ I love that about him. You have to play smart with him not just do whatever you want. Shaco is my favorite champion and I hope they never give him a rework. His entire kit is very unique and I love that about him. Love to play against him and as him and I prefer to play shaco over any other champion. Dont change my shaco please he is perfect the way he is. I'll accept slighty buffs and nerfs if needed but leave his kit the way it is.

TequilaZombie1 votes

The problem is that Riot is already working on a rework.

What I've gathered right now is that his Q should escape almost untouched and that either his E or his Ult will be changed. Probably his E from what Riot said. They vaguely mentioned that (in one of their testing ideas) he turns into a projectile. Probably what is supposed to be his new E, serving as a gap closer. They already had it implemented and were doing tests, as they mentioned that Yasuo wall would delete Projectile Shaco from the game.

Great Ozymandius1 votes

I agree. QOL buffs and numbers tuning. Otherwise, Riot please stay away.

MrEnder2 votes

Okay after A LOT of research the shaco rework was CANCELED PERMANENTLY! And he is only in for a slight change of stats in the future. So Tequila you might wanna get your facts straight ^.^

Shaco is pretty much perfect the way he is.

TequilaZombie1 votes

WHAT? They are leaving him alone? Man you have no idea how fucking happy I am!

Necitero2 votes

To be honest, I really love Shaco's design.

He isn't an overall "too OP" or "unfair champ" because he DOES damage but is really squishy. And people who say "Yeah, but his Q is pretty unfair!" are kinda random to me. Think of Twitch's q duration. Yes, Shaco can jump with his q AND be invisible but think of other invisibilities. Shaco is (with Evelynn) the most balanced one in this case.

But he isn't too weak as well. His damages comes from pure auto-attacks and his passive. His E is nice to kill realy low enemies and his w is just a nice side-effect of his kit. His ult is there to confuse people and annoy them with that tiny bit of damage it does.

Shaco is a character who's just really annoying in early, likes to outplay in midgame but has huge weaknesses in late. In my opinion: A really good and balanced champion! Shaco's standard kit is pure crit. People started to build him off-tank, flat ad and ap. I like to play him tank because his clone can be really tanky and it's procs Grasp of the undying (YOU get the life, not your clone). You can see: Shaco can be built as you wish and ALWAYS work! It just matters how you play him and if you avoid mistakes. That's it.

I would never like to see a rework but let's say there "MUST" be a rework and we can decide how we'd like to rework him. Here is my opinion:

-Fix his clones AI :D -Nerf his e in late BUT give his clone effects (at least visual, because pots and drake buff are the real traitors :D) -Give him Riot's favorite tool: "!". I know, every other Shaco Main would like to punch me now, BUT this could be really good .... if you'd give his q a bigger range and his invisibility a longer duration. :-) -Give his boxes the old "non-magic-target"-buff Shaco had in his early days (or a "1 hit" life-bar) and a longer duration (just a few sec) but nerf it's damage a bit. This would be a nerf against people who would clear the box as fast as possible but a good buff against people who are just greedy and try to kill you.

OR:

Change his E completely. Let it still be a ranged spell, but i dont know, let it be a "marking"-skillshot that does a bit damage. If the marked target gets his by Shaco (or his passive), let it explode and slow the enemy. This would remove Shaco's "drive-by" kills and add a nice in-fight-effect.

Tl;dr: I like Shaco and i wouldn't like to see a change. But if he had to be changed, let it be a really small rework.

Greetings, Necitero :)

Shaco item 3632

khorney1 votes

the issue with him is why they buffed illaoi in a way. he falls off the way illao did now not so much.

PapaGreg211 votes

I hate all the invisible champions equally. I don't understand why that exists in any video game.

TequilaZombie1 votes

Because it's fun to play with and adds to the assassination sneaking for the kill fantasy.

PapaGreg211 votes

I am not arguing it is fun to play. I am saying it is not satisfying to compete against them.

TequilaZombie1 votes

Use a red trinket, drop a pink ward, be a LeeSin or a RekSai . They are only annoying early game, later on they are as much of a headache as anyone in their class.

I agree with you though, early game they are a pain in the ass.

TequilaZombie1 votes

Well, I'm a Shaco main myself, and here's what I think he's lacking right now:

1- The incentive to flank the enemy team. He doesn't have any kind of AoE. This makes flanking the enemy team as Shaco extremely unrewarding. Compared to a Zed of Talon flank, in which they would hit 2-3 champions for 1 to 3K damage and then choose to retreat or stay, he would deal his usual ~3K dmg to a single champion and be forced to stay.

2- An escape for team fights. This is something every assassin needs. A way in AND A WAY OUT. Otherwise they are a diver, not an assassin. However, Shaco has so much stuffed in his kit that adding any extra utility makes his an overloaded champion.

3- The incentive to team fight. This goes back to the first two points. Without a way of quickly damaging multiple enemies or a way of safely retreating, Shaco has little to gain in team fights unless his team can surely win a 4v4. This leads to the Champion becoming a split push machine.

What I think should be done: His gimmicks should be thinked over. Namely his Clone and Jack in the Box.

His Clone is a gimmick that allows him to duel, to push turrets and to control objectives. Neither of those are the function of an assassin, and much of his power is caught in that.

His boxes help him with jg clear and allows him to get some cheese kills, but do little when it comes to help him with assassinations or team fighting.

At least one of those should probably be removed and trated for something that actually helps him do his job.

Caytheles1 votes
  1. Shaco isnt like most assassins. Shacos flank potential revolves around teamwork cc and placing a box after a flank. as for aoe, this is why we use our clone.

  2. Talon is a healthy assassin... and he doesnt have an escape in teamfights. unless he saves his ult for running away. but shaco has the same thing. except shaco actually DOES have a fighting chance. Go in, do your wurst, Ult to dodge a heavy attack, Q will be up by then for an escape.

  3. Well i mean the definition of assassination is to kill a person. So shaco doesnt need much AOE he does what he does very well.

Shacos kit is perfect... there is no need to "Remove" anything. just play smarter. A man can play shaco well, but a Main can become Shaco.

TequilaZombie1 votes
  1. Shaco isnt like most assassins. Shacos flank potential revolves around teamwork cc and placing a box after a flank. as for aoe, this is why we use our clone.

Depending on the team is not really ok, specially for a "lone wolf" class as the assassins.

  1. Talon is a healthy assassin... and he doesnt have an escape in teamfights. unless he saves his ult for running away. but shaco has the same thing. except shaco actually DOES have a fighting chance. Go in, do your wurst, Ult to dodge a heavy attack, Q will be up by then for an escape.

Talon can use half of his ult for damage and half for running away (and more damage). That's an escape. As Shaco you are usually able to pull your combo and kill someone in about 2 seconds. Basicly the time of an Auto, Two Shyv and Tiamat. At most you should need one extra auto. Your Q has 11 seconds of CD, 6.6 at 40% CDR. This means that you can dodge one skill with your R and have to walk away for the next 3 seconds. For a squishy like Shaco, 3 seconds WALKING out of a team fight is a lot. Any coordinated team can burst him down in that time. He has by far the worst means of escaping in the game. It doesn't help that his ult is countered by the HUD of the game. If the enemy pings you, you remain with the ping after you ult, if the enemy clicks at the clone, it will display no items. No other champion has one of his abilities countered by the HUD.

  1. Well i mean the definition of assassination is to kill a person. So shaco doesnt need much AOE he does what he does very well.

The AoE is an option to make his team fighting less crappy. Unless Shaco is really fed, he goes down extremely fast in team fights. His teamfighting consists of bursting someone (and hopefully killing them) and going down right after, maybe forcing someone to waste an impactful spell on the proccess. A Shaco who's not fed is only able to, at most, transform a 5v5 in a 4v4.

Shacos kit is perfect... there is no need to "Remove" anything. just play smarter. A man can play shaco well, but a Main can become Shaco.

I love Shaco's kit, but it's sadly an unhealthy one considering the champion's proposal. He's an assassin, but has the playstyle on a diver:

He's a champion that's really good at getting past the front line of the enemy team and getting to the squishies. He has an ability that empower his next AA. Also has a single target slow that acts as a way to stick to his target and a small delayed AoE fear. His ult aids him with dueling and really shines in extended trades.

All of this screams bruiser.

As if not enough, it's not only his strenght (or lack of it) that is problematic. He is a champion that needs to snowball and that's ok, because he has to tools to do so. But his tools feel incredibly frustrating when used against you. He relies on cheesing way too much. Cheesing a quick level 2 and ganking while the enemy laner is still at level 1. Box nesting near the enemy jungler camp and killing them before they can react. Camping the hell out of lanes due to his ability to come from basicly any angle. All of these make the enemy feel like nothing could be done to prevent it. And that's toxic gameplay.

Riot will rework Shaco no matter what. I'm the first one to hope they allow him to stay the same, but seeing their patterns, his kit is on the rework list without a doubt. I've created to this thread not to argue if Shaco needs a rework or not, but to see possible ideas for his inevitable rework.

PS: Damn, this got way bigger than expected.

Shac Norris1 votes

A man can play shaco well, but a Main can become Shaco.

Words of wisdom

The AoE is an option to make his team fighting less crappy.

Maybe make his ultimate deal % hp or add an AD scaling for AD Shaco possible outplay potential?, I don't think anything else than his ultimate should have AOE based damage..

Billy VoHagen1 votes

Actually, most assassins don't have an escape out of team fights. Talon, Diana, Rengar, Akali (situational), Evelynn, Katarina (situational), Master Yi (besides running), Nocturne, Yasuo, they all don't have one, or theirs is situational, as I said with them.

TequilaZombie1 votes

Talon has his ult. Diana, Rengar, Noc and Yas are closer to bruisers than to assassins (in their play style, not concept or description). They'd probably fall in the Fighter/Diver category from Riot's new class distribution. Yi is a melee carry in the same sort of Trynd. Akali and Kat are not meant to leave the combat, they are assassins made to dive and keep killing through resets. Yi kinda falls here too.

Shac Norris1 votes

You clearly don't play AP Shaco if you think his boxes are weak or useless. Removing his boxes would be the end of AP Shaco.

TequilaZombie1 votes

I main him AD, I only play him AP to fuck around. Usually trusting my E and Gunblade to deal most of the dmg. I don't think the boxes are weak or useless, I think they are unreliable.

Shac Norris1 votes

One of the only problems with his boxes is that you have to put them away from the minion wave, or else minions activate them, or get aggro'd to them (it takes over minion aggro when placed).

The only way his boxes are unreliable is if the enemy has a red trinket. They're also too easily broken for the time it takes to set them up.

You might play AP only to ''fuck around'', but i have 370k mastery on him, he's literally the only Shaco i love to play. I used to play AD Shaco alot before the mastery system, probably around 50k-100k mastery with that too

TequilaZombie1 votes

The only way his boxes are unreliable is if the enemy has a red trinket. They're also too easily broken for the time it takes to set them up.

They can be one shot while they are not stealthed, they can be one shot after activating and are extremely time demanding to stack. And that's without a pink or a trinket.

Caytheles1 votes

I love shaco because he is unique, no need to try to put him with others. if anything Leblanc is what needs to be changed. She gets shacos ult for free.

Great Ozymandius1 votes

if anything Leblanc is what needs to be changed. She gets shacos ult for free.

Not really. LB's passive does not do any real damage and cannot be controlled. Moreover, it cannot be controlled and is triggered only when LB is almost dead. This means that her passive is nothing more than a distraction and adds little to her outplay potential.

TequilaZombie1 votes

Shameless self bump

barbarianskull1 votes

I don't like his ult. his q is annoying but not broken. Some q cooldown needs could be nice

TequilaZombie1 votes

Longer or shorter cooldown you mean? Also, what you think is wrong with the ult?

barbarianskull1 votes

{quoted}

Longer or shorter cooldown you mean? Also, what you think is wrong with the ult?

Longer cooldown. And I feel like the ult isn't fun to play against.

MrEnder1 votes

Yes I think Shaco's boxes should be more like wards they should take three hits to kill. Otherwise you place them and bam they are instantly dead. Which makes them useless in most team fight situations =\

WrÆth1 votes

Idk why but i sense tank shaco coming into the meta with this rework :P

TequilaZombie1 votes

Tank Shaco is already meta. Triforce, Steraks, Shiv, 2 situational full tank items and you're golden.

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