I would love some buffs to some of the AP item's AP amount just so they can keep up in damage, but PLEASE
PLEASE
DO NOT increase the AP on 
It is already a lot, and is so expensive
Maybe some more on Zhonyas since the CD or Stasis is so long, or maybe a little more on abyssal
Sèx Craved Eve19 votesThey should NOT tack more ap onto defensive choices. Perhaps Morello's or something else but there SHOULD be tradeoffs between damage and tankiness.
LankPants24 votesPerhaps Morello's
Morello's is already 100 AP and probably the strongest AP item. It's the last place you should look to put more power.
Sèx Craved Eve6 votesMorello's is already 100 AP and probably the strongest AP item. It's the last place you should look to put more power.
Man, this thread is right. There isn't enough ap items.
LankPants7 votesThere's only 44 items with AP on them, once you ignore alternate map dupes, map exclusive items and the Hex Core that number drops to 36, out of those 36 only 22 are complete items, some of which are straight garbage 
, 
, 
and some of which aren't even mage items 
.
There's probably about 10 useable mage items.
Votable Jester2 votesI disagree with you about Liandry's, but other than that you seem about right.
LankPants5 votesI legit haven't seen a Liandry's in season 6. I don't consider it to be a good item, it has too many identities, it wants to be a bulky AP item with M-pen that appeals to Assassins VS squishies and a burn that's most effective VS tanks and bruisers. It just has no real direction.
Dessem4 votes
< Situational and depends on the champion.
< Fits about every champion.
< Special mention for being really strong on some AP champs but not worthwhile on others.
< Defensive AP items.
Though I'd contend that Rylai's is probably still good and a consideration on many mages.
LankPants4 votesYou just listed 11 items one of which is boots. I said about 10, so yeh, that's kinda my point.
Dessem6 votesThe point was agreement. Any other AP item works on maybe one or two champions or is built in niche situations... and the issue is that rounding out your build is difficult because unlike ADC, we don't have a "cookie-cutter" build that works on most the roster and is natural.
Think you can go with those items on nearly every ADC and do all right. Replace Runaan with Statikk or RFC and you fit most of the rest of the ADCs. There are only a few exceptions. (Could probably throw Mercurial somewhere in there too.)
AP Mage itemisation somehow feels in a worse spot where we simultaneously have more and less choice. More, because we could trap ourselves by buying when we're playing 
, and also less because it feels like Vel would only ever pick up Luden's and has no use for any of the other three situational items and doesn't want Protobelt.
Unlike an ADC, we don't get to pick up sustain/defensive AND get top-tier AD (looking at you, Bloodthirster), and we don't get to acquire items like Runaan/RFC/Shiv which augment the way we play while still offering damage augmentation.
When I play mage, I'd rather have a solved setup like ADCs do where we swap out some of the core items depending on who we play and how the game plays out than the current situation, where it feels like you pick a mage and then build the exact same items every game because there's no "I want to situationally grab x" overmuch.
Yes, there's some nuances, but way too little, way too few.
ChaoticPinecone3 votesBy that logic, you need a complete rehaul of AD items as well. Lifesteal, Deaths Dance's spellvamp and bleed passive, and Phantom Dancer are a mix of pure offense/some defense, while items like Black Cleaver, Frozen Mallet, Titanic, Steraks, Maw, Edge of Night and Mercurial are hybrid offense/defensive items.
Thinking about it now, many AD items provide both offensive and defensive stats. Why is it only a problem with mages?
ZT Xperimentor1 votesThen they should do the same to marksmen, the favoritism is disgusting.
Sèx Craved Eve1 votes[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r5GH6Qqd,comment-id=00040003,timestamp=2016-12-09T16:36:10.464+0000)
Then they should do the same to marksmen, the favoritism is disgusting.
Yeah but the majority of mages are burst damagers. Where as adc's (for the most part) are supposed to be damage over time. There are edge cases in both classes but you can't exactly have a burst damager be able to get off a rotation of spells and then be able to survive until everything's back up. I think that's the thought process behind it at least.
ZT Xperimentor4 votesAgreed, however because of how overbuffed riot made marksmen in preseason 6, they're doing more burst than mages these days; thanks to the excessive armor penetration, more flat attack damage, and more attack speed & critical chance options. Also some mages are outranged by marksmen because riot gave them the rapidfire cannon too.
Sèx Craved Eve1 votes[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r5GH6Qqd,comment-id=0004000300000000,timestamp=2016-12-09T17:43:19.083+0000)
Agreed, however because of how overbuffed riot made marksmen in preseason 6, they're doing more burst than mages these days; thanks to the excessive armor penetration, more flat attack damage, and more attack speed & critical chance options. Also some mages are outranged by marksmen because riot gave them the rapidfire cannon too.
Armor pen got nerfed mate
ZT Xperimentor1 votesSure . . . that's why you see multiple marksmen each game right? Because one can't kill fast enough anymore?
Sèx Craved Eve1 votes[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r5GH6Qqd,comment-id=000400030000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-09T17:48:16.317+0000)
Sure . . . that's why you see multiple marksmen each game right? Because one can't kill fast enough anymore?
You're kind of losing me here. Armor pen got nerfed against anyone who is lower than your level. It still gives flat penetration but just not as much against lower leveled enemies. Graves is still op mostly because of his dumb passive and burst. Other than that I don't know of more than one ADC being played in a game too commonly.
ZT Xperimentor1 votesI'm talking about the last whisper items, not the lethality ones. Negating nearly half of someone's armor is huge, among the other benefits.
Sèx Craved Eve2 votes[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r5GH6Qqd,comment-id=00040003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-09T19:35:42.613+0000)
I'm talking about the last whisper items, not the lethality ones. Negating nearly half of someone's armor is huge, among the other benefits.
True that. I've always hate last whisper's strength. They even gave it crazy compensation buffs which is just stupid.
Cryo0014 votesI don't even want buffs......just give us some more items.....AD has so many options compared to AP.
Twitch Chat12 votesHey let's wait until mages aren't universally better than every other mid lane alternative before we start handing out straight buffs to AP itemization. Keep in mind that everyone you're hitting at mid and late game has 15 less MR than they had a month ago.
The JigSAW33 votesOh, poor melee AD champs. I say that -as- someone who generally plays AD melees and its a hell of a lot easier than playing a mage, I guarantee you.
Rylai's did not deserve the nerf it received. In the past year, mages/casters have lost Will of the Ancients, significant mana regeneration, mana potions, Catalyst The Protector unique level-up properties, and now Rylai's took a hit in addition to AP nerfs on Zhonya, Luden's, Rod of Ages, etc.
Meanwhile, AD champions gained Edge of Night, Mortal Reminder/Lord Dominik's Regards, Duskblade of Draktharr, Lethality as well as armor pen on Cleaver/Dominik's for two dynamics, etc. They have lost Sword of the Occult.
Sounds like the mages got the far, far worse end there.
In that regard I'm also not playing any mages until next week - Wednesday to Wednesday as I'm advising others to do to protest the Rylai's changes - the less playrate of mages the more Riot will realize they made a goof.
ForgiveColour8 votesRylai's did not deserve the nerf it received
stopped reading right there. You obviously dont play this game what makes you think you have the rights to talk about game balance?
VexingRaven9 votesstopped reading right there. You obviously dont play this game what makes you think you have the rights to talk about game balance?
I can honestly never recall a time I died was like "OMG RYLAI'S IS SO BUSTED!!"
Volgorath16 votesThen you haven't played against 
. I still have nightmares about not being able to move while getting fanged to death.
Fairyfleur1 votesCassieopeia was one of the reasons it was nerfed
Kharn Skyshatter4 votes[{quoted}](name=Command Ethereal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r5GH6Qqd,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-09T15:50:36.464+0000)
Cassieopeia was one of the reasons it was nerfed
And even with it removed they didn't change any reason why her and Viktor are problems outside of nerfing Rylai's. In fact lowering all AP users and the problem ones will still be on top. Like taking a chainsaw to a problem when a scalpel would suffice.
AninLegions7771 votesCass, Brand, Viktor, Syndra, Basically any mage that could spam abilities or had DoT were the reason it was nerfed.
ahferroin71 votesWhich is funny, because those are some of the only champs it's worth getting on now.
AninLegions7771 votesWell it's so cheap that almost everyone gets it now.
paperbIade2 votesThen you haven't played against
at least rylai's got nerfed so she wont permaslow you anymore xd
ForgiveColour6 votesProabably because you never played against any real mage players
Big Lincoln7 votestry playing any juggernaut into a teamfight with Rylai's on any of these champs 
good luck
Troll for Trump4 votes needs Rylais to function at high elo
Big Lincoln11 votessounds like a pretty shit design to me if you need to have a permaslow on every spell to function
zaire903 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r5GH6Qqd,comment-id=0001000000000000000200000000,timestamp=2016-12-09T05:09:18.720+0000)
sounds like a pretty shit design to me if you need to have a permaslow on every spell to function
;-;
Gregor Gysi1 votesSupport Brand (and most play him support) is one of the champions that really loved the Rylais/Liandry's changes. His two core items cost 700 gold less which means he hits his powerspike much earlier. Seeing how short high elo games are this is actually a buff.
ElysMustache2 votesDon't forget the change to Aegis that removed magic resist auras from the game. Also a Brand buff.
Echo5458 votes
ScissorsNstuff4 votesno
Titanium707 votesActually I like the High Utility low cost idea - it allows people to what they want fast, which is good.
However: The lose of AP is getting a little annoying... So why nto adding one more stat-stick besides Deathcap? An Item that says: You want AP and nothing else GET ME! Something which is worth taking first (cause Deathcap isnt).
Champions like Morgana, I played alot back in the days, dont care about much utility besides Zhonyas. The only 'real' AP build features Tear which cripples your early - so sad.
And the current state of Morellos is BULLS###. It's the best AP Item besides Cap (and Ludens) , the best ManaItem besides Arch and the best CDR item right now WHILE BEING CHEAPER THAN ALL OTHERS!!!
It's like: Rate your Champions synergy with Morello from 0 to 10:
0 you're stupid, why you picked this champion, 10 TopMeta! (It's exaggerated, obviously)
While ranting: And why on earth you no longer have to think about how to get CDR instead you have to think about how to NOT get more than 40!
Gosh... Itemization right now.... terrible! Not just for mages... tanks(not bruiser juggernaut w/e.. TANKS) facing similar issues... only AD classes have so much Items to choose from its a real coin flip sometimes which one is the best to get!
Votable Jester2 votesWhile ranting: And why on earth you no longer have to think about how to get CDR instead you have to think about how to NOT get more than 40!
This is what annoys me the most. CDR used to be something that you could focus on, but many people went through the game at 20 or 30% CDR. Now I have to keep three different rune pages with different amounts of CDR to adjust for which items I'm going to buy. The only item I every buy in large part for the CDR is Morello, other than that the CDR generally annoys me. In my mind the rest is just wasted gold.
Dubshoka4 votesI think about this all the time. There is so much CDR available that it effectively pigeonholes every class/role except marksmen/adc/whatever they call those people. I've honestly thought about a 70% cdr build Illaoi in certain situations, but have never gone through with it.
But there's a large number of possible combinations of stats that dont exist in items. I know Riot has a thing about unused items, but I don't really see the harm in more options.
LankPants5 votesI don't think Deathcap needs more AP, it needs a price drop so it's a reasonable item. Anywhere from 3400-3600 would be an OK price for Deathcap, 3800 is just too much.
Some other changes that would help with mage itemisation IMO
AP 100>120, Luden's should be a big damage item, it falls just a little short of that right now. Armour 45>35, AP 70>60, passive from Armguard now carries over, gives 1 AP and 0.5 Armour per stack, max stats 50 Armour and 90 AP. AP 80>100, this item's just garbage, if it were a large AP item it might be OK.And finally, 
needs to build into more items than just Morello's. The Books from BMB are a good guideline for what these items could look like.
Sèx Craved Eve3 votesI don't think Deathcap needs more AP, it needs a price drop so it's a reasonable item. Anywhere from 3400-3600 would be an OK price for Deathcap, 3800 is just too much.
Some other changes that would help with mage itemisation IMO
And finally,
That's an insane amount of armor and ap. That would make it more expensive than deathcap, mate.
LankPants3 votesIt used to be 50/120 and it wasn't a huge problem at that. Then again, AP itemisation used to not be terrible in general.
Zhonya's at 90 AP and 50 armour is actually just over gold efficient. For a stacking item it would be on the weak end of stat efficiency.
The main thing that this change would do is make the mandatory Zhonya's into AD assassins. Most of the time when you need to buy a Zhonya's it's going to be about the same since you need to kill 30 creeps for it to stack up.
Talisid8 votesYou can't give GLP 100 AP, nobody would ever buy at that point.
Dengeden5 votesBuffing Hourglass and Abyssal would have the same problem as Rylai's. They offer mages a new way to approach a fight whilst simultaneously providing a maximum amount of AP.
Also muh damage creep
LankPants5 votesAlso muh damage creep
AP itemisation has underwent the opposite of damage creep. If there's anything in AP itemisation it's an effect creep. The old S2 bulk standard AP build was something like 
, because in earlier seasons you actually needed defensive items. This was a super high damage build at the time, Athene's was 90 AP and Zhonya's was 100, you ended with over 600 AP from a 4 AP item build.
In season 3 this spiked even higher, Athene's was nerfed to 80, Zhonya's was buffed to 120 and GA fell out of favour in exchange for DFG. This was the absolute peak of AP damage output, no other build has ever even been close.
Something about these builds though, they're very simple. All of the passives and actives boil down to 'do more damage' or 'survive longer'. There's actually no utility in the most common and arguably best builds of the time.
Since then there's been more utility on builds at the expense of damage. To say that AP damage has creeped is factually incorrect, the difference between now and season 3 is that now dedicated burst mages can blow you up in a fraction of a second, in season 3 any mage could. You could be blown up by champions like Karthus and Sona utilising DFG in season 3.
The only class that has truly damage creeped in LoL is ADCs, the reason why is that Riot gave them a premium damage item that doubles as a perfect defensive item. There is no tradeoff to going full offence on an ADC. I find it funny that you pick on Zhonya's, Rylai's and Abyssal for this when they all make tradeoffs after the Rylai's nerf yet you completely fail to look at Mercurial Scimitar, which is the epitome of an offence/defence hybrid item that does everything.
CrazedPorcupine4 votesOR OR OR How about making AP champs have slightly lower bases, but better AP scalings!
black adc 2k172 votesLul, people think blue buff was the important buff nerf. Fucking red is worthless now, and made every single auto attack reliant jungler worthless ty riot games. For really pushing the HECARIM ONLY meta
