Can nunu and Liss get actual passive abilities

invisiblecat1·Jan 28, 2017·195 votes·6,360 views

They are given situational no mana abilities, even though it is not up often, but to make up for one free ability every once in a while they get insanely high mana costs Lissandra's Q, the one she is supposed to spam uses 85 mana at level 1 Why? Nunu's E at level one costs a lot too Not to mention their base mana/mana regen isn't that great anyways Please fix them like you fixed veigar actually give them a passive ability EDIT: Oh my, that's a lot of upvotes Thanks for all the support <3

119 Comments

GrReaper96Jan 29, 201727 votes

This. While Lissandras E mana costs is understandable, there is absolutely nothing great about her Q that would require it to have such a high mana costs. Ahris Q is better 99% of the time and its doesnt have a crazy high mana cost. They need to reduce Lissandras Q mana cost and give her a better passive. Heres my idea of a new Lissandra passive

Passive : Iceborn Lissandra's next non-ultimate ability periodically gains bonus effects. (20 sec cd) Iceborn's cooldown is reduced by 1 second every time Lissandra applies crowd control to an enemy with her abilities, excluding crowd control spell effects from items.

Q: Doubles the slow on primary target, enemies hit by the shard are slowed for the original amount (max 56%/28% for 1.5sec)

W: Increases snare duration by 50% (max 2.25 sec)

E: Ice claw travels 50% faster. Upon reactivation, gains 25% damage reduction for 1.5 seconds.

invisiblecat1Jan 29, 20172 votes

This would be amazing, but the cooldown on it would either need to be buffed, or her damage would need to be nerfed since having tons of damage and utility would be broken

GrReaper96Jan 29, 20171 votes

Well she doesnt really have that much burst compared to most mid champs, more of consistent damage because her low Q cd. And 20 secs is pretty long, unless you hit a like 5 people with both Q and W. Still perhaps 30 sec would be fair

invisiblecat1Jan 29, 20173 votes

20 seconds in lane is too short 20 seconds late game doesn't matter since she will only last 0.5 seconds after she ults herself because of damage

NineTailedMysticJan 29, 20174 votes

Ahri Q is decently mana intensive early. Not to say Liss Q is better, but Ahri Q isn't that cheap

GrReaper96Jan 29, 20171 votes

Yeah it isnt cheap but does waaay more than liss Q

NineTailedMysticJan 29, 20174 votes

70/100/130/160/190 + .65 AP and a 16/19/22/25/28% Slow for 85 Mana with a 6/5.25/4.5/3.75/3 Cooldown and 725 (normal)/825 (with shatter) Range

40/65/90/115/140 + .35 AP per pass (80/130/180/230/280 + .7 AP total), 2nd pass being True Damage for 65/70/75/80/85 Mana with a 7s Cooldown and 880 Range.

Conclusion: Lissandra has CC and a faster Cooldown, while Ahri has more damage, a lesser Mana cost, and slightly more Range.

5000000000000000Jan 29, 201712 votes

I think Ahri's Q giving MS boost is a fairly important aspect that you forgot to add.

That said, even then, those two spells seem pretty comparable.

SociopathFriendJan 29, 20172 votes

Also factor in that Ahri situationally can heal a lot from Q-ing a wave.

Not exactly the Q itself, but related. Technically the innate is part of all her abilities just like Liss.

It's not its own solo ability like say- Kog suicide or Azir turret.

GrReaper96Jan 29, 20172 votes

Like the guy said Ahri MS is a big factor, not to mention true damage and potential heal. Liss Q is a sinlge target 28% slow.

NineTailedMysticJan 29, 20171 votes

I don't know how I forgot the MS, but I mentioned the True Damage, and her Passive is independent of her Q. Liss Q can also hit more than one target to apply the slow so it's not single target, albeit slightly hard to.

GrReaper96Jan 29, 20173 votes

ACTIVE: Lissandra hurls a spear of ice in a line which deals magic damage to the first enemy it hits and Slow icon slows them for 1.5 seconds.

Liss Q can only slow 1 target. The shards dont slow you

True Ahri passive is independent of her Q but they synergies super well. Liss Q and passive.... not so

Cosmic WarperJan 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

This. While Lissandras E mana costs is understandable, there is absolutely nothing great about her Q that would require it to have such a high mana costs. Ahris Q is better 99% of the time and its doesnt have a crazy high mana cost. They need to reduce Lissandras Q mana cost and give her a better passive. Heres my idea of a new Lissandra passive

This passive makes way more sense then her current one. Gives her some extra windows of power that people can play around if the visuals are good.

CatastropJan 31, 20171 votes

{quoted}

This. While Lissandras E mana costs is understandable, there is absolutely nothing great about her Q that would require it to have such a high mana costs. Ahris Q is better 99% of the time and its doesnt have a crazy high mana cost. They need to reduce Lissandras Q mana cost and give her a better passive. Heres my idea of a new Lissandra passive

Holy crap yes, this has to be the best passive rework suggestion yet. Riot, make it happen.

XoziJan 29, 201710 votes

With over 200K on Lissandra, I have to say I like her passive. You're not supposed to be able just spam your Q pre level 6. Her Q has a low cooldown because late game her basic attacks do nothing unless you build Lich Bane and spam cast Q with an auto to follow. Her passive also allows for some incredible outplays. Your opponent sees your mana bar is low and decides since they are full HP they will dive you for the "easy kill." Little do they know, with 85 mana you can cast an ult to stun them under tower and deal damage and as soon as it wears off you have enough mana to hit a second CC and finish the kill. It also makes it incredibly easy to manage her mana early.

Here's some math.

Early game lissandra's Q costs 85 mana. Every 18 seconds she gets a free cast.

If you cast a Q every 9 seconds you can essentially half the mana cost. And one Q every 9 seconds will leave most any midlaner hurting early game if you have half a clue how to proc thunderlords. To be honest, If you're having trouble with Lissandra's passive it's likely because you spam cast Q too early. If they lowered the mana cost of her Q it would allow her to spam more and potentially break her.

If they change her passive she no longer has the mana management that gives her the early sustain she desperately needs.

Sorry to disagree with OP but Liss is fine the way she is. If anything needs to be changed, it's Ahri/Ziggs.

Sexy Jack RabbitJan 29, 20174 votes

Lissandra is a champion gated severely by her prevalence in Professional play. Her current passive is nothing more then an excuse to give her exceedingly high mana costs.

Whilst it's not the only mana passive in the game, with Nunu, Evelynn, Xerath and pre-MYMU Veigar all having Mana-based passives, Lissandra's is the most low-effort and least interactive of the bunch.

Nunu's requires him to adjust his build, Evelynn only benefits from hers when she's invisible and is de-activated upon being visible, She's another culprit the same as Lissandra, that being said she's in line for a VGU already. Xerath is required to interact with his enemy laner to reap full benefits. Lissandra's Passive on the other hand is only a stationery cooldown, and is only lowered by doing something she would be doing whether she did or did not have her passive. Not too mention it's only her Q and Ultimate that apply to her passive anyways, considering W roots, and E does not slow and Spell effects are not taken into account.

Lissandra is not fine the way she is and Riot has already expressed that. They aren't satisfied with her current passive and thinks it could use some serious work.

BakedLotionJan 29, 20173 votes

{quoted}

With over 200K on Lissandra, I have to say I like her passive. You're not supposed to be able just spam your Q pre level 6. Her Q has a low cooldown because late game her basic attacks do nothing unless you build Lich Bane and spam cast Q with an auto to follow. Her passive also allows for some incredible outplays. Your opponent sees your mana bar is low and decides since they are full HP they will dive you for the "easy kill." Little do they know, with 85 mana you can cast an ult to stun them under tower and deal damage and as soon as it wears off you have enough mana to hit a second CC and finish the kill. It also makes it incredibly easy to manage her mana early.

Here's some math.

Early game lissandra's Q costs 85 mana. Every 18 seconds she gets a free cast.

If you cast a Q every 9 seconds you can essentially half the mana cost. And one Q every 9 seconds will leave most any midlaner hurting early game if you have half a clue how to proc thunderlords. To be honest, If you're having trouble with Lissandra's passive it's likely because you spam cast Q too early. If they lowered the mana cost of her Q it would allow her to spam more and potentially break her.

If they change her passive she no longer has the mana management that gives her the early sustain she desperately needs.

Sorry to disagree with OP but Liss is fine the way she is. If anything needs to be changed, it's Ahri/Ziggs.

and then its useless late game. How do u proc thunderlords with one Q? It doesn't reset your auto timer and if you do Auto Q auto, you'll be taking minion damage and have to push+walk up.

And if you use your other abilities then you're down to 1/4th ur mana

Trias000Jan 29, 20171 votes

{quoted}

With over 200K on Lissandra, I have to say I like her passive.

I raise you another 200k points, and say she has no passive whatsoever. Like it's been said many times, it's merely a compensation for her high mana costs. That's a very lazy design. If they removed her passive but gave her standard mana regen (right now it's the lowest of all champions at level 18 and iirc 3rd lowest at level 1) and lowered her mana costs, nobody would even notice the difference.

XoziJan 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I raise you another 200k points, and say she has no passive whatsoever. Like it's been said many times, it's merely a compensation for her high mana costs. That's a very lazy design. If they removed her passive but gave her standard mana regen (right now it's the lowest of all champions at level 18 and iirc 3rd lowest at level 1) and lowered her mana costs, nobody would even notice the difference.

Her passive is meant to help her low mana regen. Which is why you start item 3027 or item 3165 to compensate. If you change her passive and her Q's cost you have to lower the damage. Which I am not okay with. Lissandra is a harass and burst mage. If you decrease the cost, and leave the damage the same, she will be broken at level 7-12. The low cost will allow her to spam it like her basic averaging 200 damage over 2 seconds.

Changing her passive would force Rito to negatively change her Q.

Trias000Jan 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Her passive is meant to help her low mana regen.

But that's precisely the point of this thread! Her passive is a compensation for low mana regen and high spells costs. And nothing else.

Changing her passive would force Rito to negatively change her Q.

You don't even know what her new passive would be, and you're already complaining (how typical of League players). Maybe it would actually give her more damage. What we can be sure of, is that Riot would at least attempt to balance her. So arguments like "she will be broken" etc. are not valid.

Look at Vel'Koz. He doesn't have Lissandra's passive, yet he can spam his abilities for days. Way more than Lissandra with her "free" spells. How about that...

Backup4nowJan 29, 20179 votes

Nunu's passive is actually super strong compared to Liss's, with some attack speed he can be immune to mana costs. The reason Liss's costs are so high is because her poke and push power would be too high early; and, let's be honest, if you're playing an AP mid you're rushing morello's, so mana costs aren't an issue once you hit 6.

Rew711Jan 29, 20172 votes

Nunu's mana costs aren't even high. Riot basically really wants this guy to be a viable Support option but people dismiss him. In previous seasons, it was all about the healers (and Zilean) but now that Braum and Tahm Kench are here (and Ivern as well) he isn't that bad of an option.

NodirjonSattarovJan 29, 20177 votes

can kog'maw get an actual passive too? where i don't have to die to make use of it? thx

invisiblecat1Jan 29, 20179 votes

Kog's passive is actually good since it does true AoE damage Considering how immobile Kog is he will be dying a lot

NodirjonSattarovJan 29, 20175 votes

it encourages dying for little in return. the MS granted hardly catches up to majority of the roster

DanjengJan 29, 201712 votes

No, it does not encourage dying at all. It discourages enemies from killing Kog'Maw in the first place. So if an assassin ends up bursting down Koggy, the enemy team would have to deal with 500 AOE true damage.

Note: I see your name, but that doesn't negate my counterargument.

NodirjonSattarovJan 29, 20174 votes

i understand that the true damage is a threat however it doesn't discourage people from killing me. currently the meta is diver jungle that potentially one-shots (vi, hecarim, lee sin, khazix) ADCs that play safe and have poke and don't have to worry about getting close, they tend to have MS boosts or CC to help them escape/engage safely (Jhin, Caitlyn, Varus). mages bursty/sustain doesn't really matter (pretty much every mage). tanks (can't do much to a 4k health garen regardless of how low i've gotten him).

ADC with their passive as their core damaging identity: Ashe, Caitlyn, Jhin, Graves, Quinn, Kindred.
ADC with their passive as all-time usable: Vayne, Sivir, Tristana, Twitch, Draven, Kalista.
ADC with their passive as situational but always tide-turning: Varus, Jinx, Ezreal, Miss Fortune, Lucian.

Every ADC listed has a MS passive/active/debuff that help them 1) kite 2) escape 3) engage/disengage. meanwhile kog'maw get a MS steroid only after he dies. the only "ADC" that doesn't have a MS boost/debuff is Urgot but I am going to do whatever in my power to not let Riot do that to Kog'Maw. I get that Kog'Maw is supposed to be an immobile glass cannon, but no one cares if you don't have CC/ abilities that can help you re-position. this is why he has a 1.2% play rate and will continue to be neglected as long as its that low.

Now let us compare Kog'maw's passive to other champions with death as condition to trigger:

Resurrecting passive: Zac, Anivia, Aatrox - I'm pretty sure if they die during clash, they will be completely ignored and successfully rebirth.
Revenge-killing passive: Karthus, Sion - These two can wipe a team or really aid in killing. It's like, let's kill them last because their presence in clash will be disastrous. Besides, they aren't ADCs. Zyra's passive was remade because it's MEH. It's just fun when you can kill with it.

if your only argument is "AoE True damage" then play at least 10 games and tell me how often you get a kill with the passive.

Qiyano ReevesJan 28, 20174 votes

Ummm what's wrong with lissandras passive? Being able to cast an ability for free every so many seconds is bad?

fuffychanJan 29, 201788 votes

Because they "balanced" it by giving her artificially high mana costs.

It would be like if Burger King said they were selling Whoppers at 90% off, then raised the price of a Whopper to $50.

YumaS2AstralJan 29, 201721 votes

To give you a better analogy that has more to do with LoL:

They gutted Shen and Mordekaiser 's base HP and armor to compensate for their passive shields.

Sion also gets a very low base HP despite having infinite HP stacking (I believe he needs about 200 farm to have HP comparing to Alistar's base HP) however he still gets infinite HP stacking so this is not a completely serious problem.

Aatrox Tristana Azir Diana also get low base attack speed despite them having attack speed steroids. This may not seem like it is a problem but it means they get less attack speed from building more attack speed than champions with higher base attack speed.

WizardavarJan 29, 20171 votes

Actually, they have a decent to above average base attack-speed. Azir and Diana have low attack speed growth. but have a average base attack speed. Diana was never meant to a auto attack based champion, and a good portion of Azir's Attack Speed is locked up in his W. Morde's shield is dumb, so I cant argue with that, but for shen, he have one of the most powerful defensive steroid on his W.

AdriqnoheeJan 29, 201717 votes

Diana's three hit passive seems to argue against her not being a AA based champion, so does her kit that focus on keeping people right next to her.

LordForrestJan 29, 20177 votes

Um, you realize that that they gave Diana a low base attack speed exactly so she couldn't hit high levels of attack speed off of the limited AP beneficial attack speed items? That is why she is permanently granted 20% bonus attack speed through her passive so she has a relatively normal starting attack speed for her passive procs, but is hard to scale to absurd levels from building bonus attack speed. That is why her passive is allowed to have the absurd base damage and scaling that it has.

It was set up purely to balance her, where some attack speed is nice, but doesn't become her identity.

The TrentJan 29, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Because they "balanced" it by giving her artificially high mana costs.

It would be like if Burger King said they were selling Whoppers at 90% off, then raised the price of a Whopper to $50.

And the whoppers were only 90% off every 18 days, and you only get one.

48983507DEL1Jan 31, 20171 votes

Funny cause that's essentially what most restaurants do lol

Rito StaffJan 29, 20174 votes

At least this post isn't on memes and games board like the other Mundo thread..

Anyways, there were new passives incoming for Nunu and Liss but they got iceboxed.

badumts report me for toxicity :'c

InTheoryJan 29, 20171 votes

[deleted]

Rito StaffJan 29, 20171 votes

Source for what?

InTheoryJan 29, 20171 votes

[deleted]

Rito StaffJan 29, 20172 votes

Its a joke xD (hint: nunu, Liss, iceboxed) its funny like that i know :c

SpecterVonBarenJan 29, 20173 votes

Ironically, there WAS in fact a time her passive was actually good, which was just after the mana regen changes to items. It was a part of the reason Liss was so good at that point in time.

DanjengJan 29, 20171 votes

How about Xerath? He has a similar passive; it restores mana.

GhostOfShrimpmasJan 29, 201715 votes

His is decently designed, though. Nunu and Liss just get free spells for doing things they'd do anyway, but Xerath naturally wants to stay at max range, and so he has a passive to reward him for getting a bit closer, to give enemies a chance to respond to him.

ItsbeghdevJan 29, 20177 votes

And it's not a manaless ability, it's just mana restoration.

VerdadeJan 29, 20173 votes

Dude what? Have you seen his mana costs? He has artificially inflated mana costs because he has that passive

Votable JesterJan 29, 20173 votes

Yes, but as a Xerath player I have to admit, it feels damn good to land that auto against a champion.

GhostOfShrimpmasJan 29, 20171 votes

Yes, because otherwise he'd be a degenerate shit to play against. If he had reasonable costs, he'd just sit at the edge of the FoW all game making your life hell until he felt like going to buy items. With his high costs and mana restoration on auto attacks, he needs to occasionally get within interacting distance of his opponent. It allows him to function in the game without being banned due to just being so annoying.

VerdadeJan 30, 20171 votes

You mean just like Velkoz ? VK's mana costs: 60/70/70/100 Xerath's mana costs: 120/110/80/100

Vel has the same range, more CC, much more damage, MUCH more kill pressure, much better waveclear, 2k true damage in his combo and shorter CDs. Also, he's less telegraphed, more mobile and can kite pretty much anything I usually call Xerath a poor man's Vel'koz. Xerath is just more straightforward to play/easier to pick up, but he pays for it way too much.

Sexy Jack RabbitJan 29, 20171 votes

My idea for a Lissandra passive would be for her to leave a trail of frost behind her, the trail boosts Allies movement speed by 12/18/24% when followed along, and slows enemies movement speed by 10/16/22%.

Could obviously use fine tuning but the idea is basically a built in Elxir of Iron.

NishantJan 29, 20173 votes

The problem with that in itself would be it's a built in Elixir of Iron; it's not very unique. Kind of like how Brand's passive was reworked because it was pretty much the same as a Rylai's/Liandry's build on other mages.