"We agree dynamic queue standings don't reflect pure individual skill as well as a solo ladder"

invisiblecat1·May 31, 2016·142 votes·3,976 views

(This is a repost because somehow this falls under Gameplay!?) Then why is it STILL considered RANKED IF IT DOESN'T SHOW SKILL THEN WHY IS IT RANKING PLAYERS BASED ON SKILL I UNDERSTAND THIS IN NORMAL GAME, BUT IT IS NOT "Ranked" Sorry, but Riot just no sense. They either need to fix how ranks work NOW. There are terrible people who deserve bronze, but they are in diamond because of Dynamic queue! How is this considered ranked game play if people are not getting RANKED on their performance, but on the performance the ones who carry them

155 Comments

AtanchanJun 1, 201620 votes

Because they're not focusing on measuring individual skill with ranked, they're measuring team skill?

In a team game?

RedcadaverJun 1, 201614 votes

{quoted}

Because they're not focusing on measuring individual skill with ranked, they're measuring team skill?

In a team game?

But you are getting 5 people who have never played together and most likely never will again, against people who play together all the time and somehow you expect a fair match. All the skill in the world won't matter if they can't cooperate and that's if their skills sets mesh. You might have an all in support with an adc who passively farms. Or a jungler who rather wait till level 6 to gank with teammates that want to dive. In the end you are 5 individuals against a team and somehow you are suppose to go above and beyond just to compete.

Dextix LTJun 1, 20169 votes

By maching up solo players with premade team players?

Seems fair.

How about having 2 separare ques. 1 for solos and 1 for premades.

But wait, they need our solo asses to slave and fill those fcking premades dont they?

AtanchanJun 1, 20161 votes

Actually, they just need 2s, 3s, and 5s. But since that would leave 1s without a ranked experience, and solo queue would miss the entire point of adding dynamic queue, they allow solo players to queue, too, with the added benefit of allowing 4s as well.

Dextix LTJun 1, 20168 votes

No, that would leave 1s with ACTUAL ranked experience. And there is no other point to adding dynamic other than casualizing the game and destroying ranked integrity.

There is a reason why dynamic q was tried and scrapped in games such as Hots who STARTED it!

AninLegions777Jun 1, 20165 votes

I'm sorry but if you are solo, team skill doesn't apply. I'm a solo player. Play solo most of the time. I prefer to have my skill ranked based on how I play not how my team does.

AtanchanJun 1, 20163 votes

... So why aren't you playing a game where you can compete with others while not relying on how your team does?

AninLegions777Jun 1, 20161 votes

Read your question and try to rephrase it to be understood.

AtanchanJun 1, 20162 votes

Why aren't you playing a multiplayer game that isn't a multiplayer team game?

YvaelleJun 1, 20163 votes

Or alternately, "Why aren't you playing League of Legends 2015, when it had Solo Queue".

AtanchanJun 1, 20162 votes

Nah. In a MOBA's solo queue, you're still relying on how your team does and your opponents are still relying on their team does. Maybe some even earlier years had carries capable of snowballing hard enough that the only thing your team could do to prevent you from 1v5ing past the laning phase was to give the entire enemy team five kills or so apiece, but in 2015 you had to be massively, unreasonably fed to even attempt to snowball that hard, and even then you weren't insurmountable to a team.

slôwJun 1, 20163 votes

Not at all, because obviously you can change your rank and do better in game regardless of how your team does.

Dynamic Q takes my ability to solo carry people away, because the premade section of my team will only listen to eachother and completely ignore GOOD calls and suicide by themselves, and in most cases, obliterate any lead I had entirely, and blame me for it.

AtanchanJun 1, 20163 votes

To be fair, dynamic queue's closer to solo queue than an actual ranked ladder for something as team-orientated as a typical MOBA, it's just that it's ... well, not literally the opposite end of the scale, like with solo queue.

People who don't listen to their teammates kind of deserve to lose in a team game, after all. The issue arises when you get dragged into a team with those people, but of course that's something that happens in solo queue, too.

slôwJun 3, 20161 votes

The difference between "not listen to their teammates" and "deserve to lose" is this small fact about ranked systems in anything that has ever existed successfully:

If I'm the better player, and I'm playing better and communicating well with my team to the best of my ability (which is extremely high statistically, in the top 1% of ranked and top 0.1% of all of league community) then I should have the ability to have more of an influence than the worst player in the match.

In this scenario, everyone has picked the same champion, same runes, same masteries.

Team 1 consists of

1 solo player 2 player premade and a 2 player premade again

other team is the same.

Solo player absolutely destroys the other team in his ability at the start of the game.

The other premades are always going to communicate with eachother more than everyone else, thats a fact.

If the premade decides "fight here" and the solo player through sheer ability and experience knows without a doubt its a terrible idea, and tells them so, they still will not listen no matter what, due to the trust between the premades.

Thats an old Q scenario. Now do that with 1 solo player, and 4 player premade, or 2 solo players and a 3 premade. The solo players have almost no ability to decide the direction of the game in their own ability because the 3 player premade will always trust eachother more, and you can even test this yourself in a very short amount of time.

Go into a game. Get super far ahead Be better than the rest of your team by a long shot (and it should be evident enough that it looks like they are trolling, probably 3/4 games) Try to be a shot caller, ping everywhere, ping everything you can, talk constantly, encourage people. Then your team gets a case of the good idea fairy and together in skype in their majority rule, make so many awful decisions and flame you for not following.

Now, with thousands of players speaking of this scenario that happens extremely often, you cannot simply just say it doesn't happen, because it does. I have accounts in every single tier besides master and challenger, and I know it happens everywhere because I can watch streams and see it for those too.

Its the problem with majority rule in a teamgame, that the solo player loses almost all authority in the game, and is simply a pawn for the "team" that usurps control despite vastly inferior ability and experience.

Old Q allowed solo players to "force wins" due to sheer ability. Now, regardless of how well you do, the premade has control and everyone simply plays it off as a "team game" even though the solo player was playing for EVERYONE to do good and win, rather than just the people in skype that they trust the most and couldn't give 2 shits about anyone not in skype.

AtanchanJun 3, 20161 votes

... Can you tl;dn the part that actually paints what issue is unique to dynamic queue? Because I can't seem to find it, and otherwise it looks like you're saying that solo queue and dynamic queue are pretty equal experiences for a solo player who gets unlucky with teammates.

AninLegions777Jun 2, 20161 votes

Name one like that

AtanchanJun 2, 20161 votes

Well ...

Blade and Soul was a hugely popular one to Leaguers a while back
Someone else mentioned Starcraft 2 and most over RTSes have multiplayer where 1v1 is a full experience
All of the Smash series are played 1v1 primarily even if there is some competitive 2v2
Most other fighting games are literally 1v1 only due to not supporting more than one player in a match
Pokemon is 1v1 even in its 2v2 mode, as it's two Pokemon per player, not two players facing off against two others
If you want to go classic, well, it's definitely not an esport and the community's still in a decline, but the multiplayer Doom ( as in, the 1993 Doom ) is still alive and one of the primary modes of play is Duel
I'm pretty sure Quake Live also has Duel, as does the open source game OpenArena that's based on Quake 3
If you're into TCGs, there's obviously Hearthstone but there's also a free online version of the Pokemon TCG, various duel simulators for Yu-Gi-Oh! that have an active community, and I believe Magic Online is still alive though iirc it requires a subscription.

... I figured one wouldn't really be that useful.

AninLegions777Jun 2, 20161 votes

1 - Blade and soul is meh. Gets boring fast. 2 - SC2 is ugly like I told him. And the chance of meeting bad players in 1v1 is too high. Makes it too easy and boring 3 - Don't like smash 4 - I'm assuming you mean the likes of SF and Tekken. I play those for fun not competition. 5 - I don't like multiplayer pokemon 6 - Getting the new doom later ... 7 - Quake is meh. Gets boring real quick 8 - I'm trying out Hearthstone soon.

Soooo what else?

AtanchanJun 2, 20161 votes

I'm beginning to think the parts of League you enjoy are the parts where individual skill matters the least.

DeathBurstJun 1, 20161 votes

It's perfectly understandable, but the even simpler version is "why don't you play a 1v1 game?".

AninLegions777Jun 2, 20161 votes

How many 1v1 games are there?

DeathBurstJun 2, 20161 votes

Dozens? But my favorite's still StarCraft 2.

AninLegions777Jun 2, 20161 votes

SC2 is ugly AF. Can't stand it

DeathBurstJun 3, 20161 votes

Too bad for you, find another one. I'm not here to do your work for you.

6KEMBE4ORBAJun 1, 20164 votes

Let me explain.

There isn't any competitive sport/game on this planet that has:

Individual ranks for every player based solely on their team performance.

Every other (team) game - be it even a video game - with a similar system to DQ has at least one of these things:

the MM tracks and compares a set number of skills for an individual called "personal performance" alongside pure win/loss ratio in determining a rank.
necessary (the right ones) restrictions of group configuration and/or entirely separate ranked ladders.
In the case of video games - ingame VOIP.

LoL, for all Riot's bolster and bragging in being the "flagship of esports", currently has none of these.

In League, solo rating and (I will call it individual rating) is important and is essential because it's correlated with how the MM works and its goal to make fair games and that is the whole point of the ranked gamemode. Not anymore.

The MMR ratings are diluted by DynamicQ which leads to reduced quality of matches and as bonus the ranked ladder + ranks are meaningless.

All of this is backed by common logic/sense + some math. It's not true just because I say it is and delusional/people that don't care or are unable to comprehend it suddenly won't turn DQ into a good competitive system.

KING ATTILAJun 2, 20163 votes

News flash, Solo Queue is also still a team game.

slôwJun 3, 20162 votes

This, exactly this.

As a person who has many accounts in every tier but master and challenger, I had to be more of a teamplayer than anyone else in the game to rise quickly. I had to quite literally throw my teammates into positions where they can accidently do well. Thats being a team player. Not just being in skype and deciding randomly to go in on a fight that makes no sense regardless of what 1-2 people not in skype say about it.

QuephaMay 31, 201614 votes

But it does show skill.

Critmaster GarenMay 31, 201628 votes

{quoted}

But it does show skill.

if by skill, you mean wallet then yes.

its not hard for a couple of d1 smurphs to carry some shitty bronze to plat or d5. people actually get payed for dynamic boosting, and the worst part is its entirely legal. because riot doesnt prohibit smurphs, or teams in ranked ques.

QuephaJun 1, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8zHBkzxJ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-05-31T23:45:42.899+0000)

if by skill, you mean wallet then yes.

its not hard for a couple of d1 smurphs to carry some shitty bronze to plat or d5. people actually get payed for dynamic boosting, and the worst part is its entirely legal. because riot doesnt prohibit smurphs, or teams in ranked ques.

It is not legal. Riot bans people who boost.

Critmaster GarenJun 1, 201628 votes

{quoted}

It is not legal. Riot bans people who boost.

dynamic boosts are legal.

mostly due to the fact that theyre incredibly hard to prove. you can make a team of smurph accounts and climb up till plat.

how do you recognize the one who got carried, and how do you prove that it was a boost at all? technically they were just playing with their friends.

give him some champion he cant really fuck up with like janna, and have him on voice com to tell him when to ult and where to ward, and you cant even recognize the baddie by his cs count.

manbearswineJun 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8zHBkzxJ,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2016-06-01T00:32:56.883+0000)

dynamic boosts are legal.

mostly due to the fact that theyre incredibly hard to prove. you can make a team of smurph accounts and climb up till plat.

It's not so much that as boost= other player playing on your account raising your mmr, since this isn't the case then "dynamic boosts"(how is this so different than duo boosts? I mean this already existed in the old duo q, I'm not sure why everyone is blaming it on dynamic que) are completely legal, even if they end up having the same results as regular boosts(though to be fair, these take more time to execute, as you both need to carry a guy who's gonna be a burden, and you need a level 30 account to smurf on).

XeruonJun 1, 20163 votes

Within the old system, it was technically possible, because only up to two people at a time could queue up. Eventually, the MMR would get so high that the bronzie would be too heavy to carry for the diamond.

But with DynQ allowing with up to five people, two, three, even four diamonds can carry a bronze, with that many, the bronze player doesn't become as heavy nearly as fast.

manbearswineJun 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Within the old system, it was technically possible, because only up to two people at a time could queue up. Eventually, the MMR would get so high that the bronzie would be too heavy to carry for the diamond.

But with DynQ allowing with up to five people, two, three, even four diamonds can carry a bronze, with that many, the bronze player doesn't become as heavy nearly as fast.

So is the whole problem here is that with old duo que a bronze was boosted to plat, and here a bronze is boosted to diamond? Is that really so much worse?

XeruonJun 1, 20165 votes

It's the mentality of just sucking everything up like you're displaying here that lets Riot do what they want.

Boosting, in all it's forms, is unacceptable. It dilutes the ranked ladder and defeats the point of climbing ranks. Not only are the games of the people in the boosted person's mmr ruined because that player is simply too good, but after the boosting is over, the boosted person's MMR will adjust because they simply cannot perform as well as the people with they're playing now.

And to answer your question, a single high-diamond can carry a bronze to maybe high gold-low plat, and that's streching it. It's very difficult to get a bad player through the ranks as long as you don't have direct control over their actions, AKA logging into their account. However, a group of well-coordinated High Diamonds can easily a boost a Bronze into high plat - low diamond.

The DeckownerJun 1, 20163 votes

which is easier, 1 person carrying 1 person or 3 people carrying 1 person?

manbearswineJun 1, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8zHBkzxJ,comment-id=000000000000000100000002,timestamp=2016-06-01T14:32:16.622+0000)

which is easier, 1 person carrying 1 person or 3 people carrying 1 person?

Considering the first option requires one guy willing to carry a person, and the second consists of 3 people willing to do that, I'm going with the first.

You're talking about 3 smurfs accounts made with the intent of one single boost, that is a pretty big requirement.

The DeckownerJun 1, 20161 votes

um not when the boosted person is paying

manbearswineJun 1, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8zHBkzxJ,comment-id=00000000000000010000000200000000,timestamp=2016-06-01T18:58:03.378+0000)

um not when the boosted person is paying

Except that he needs to pay 3 people instead of just one. So yeah, even when he is paying.

The DeckownerJun 1, 20161 votes

Hum it's definitely hard to find a few plat friends a let them carry me outta Bronze.

manbearswineJun 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8zHBkzxJ,comment-id=0000000000000001000000020000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-01T19:44:56.023+0000)

Hum it's definitely hard to find a few plat friends a let them carry me outta Bronze.

Considering this entails convincing them all to make 3 smurf whose entire purpose is to boost you, yeah, it's pretty damn hard.

The DeckownerJun 1, 20161 votes

talking as if high elo players don't already make smurfs anyways.

manbearswineJun 1, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8zHBkzxJ,comment-id=000000000000000100000002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-01T20:09:09.941+0000)

talking as if high elo players don't already make smurfs anyways.

And do you think they all go around "hey, anybody here wants me to boost him with other guys? Also where can I find these other guys who are also smurfing in this small window of time before I calibrate to help me boost you".

Yes they make smurfs, but it's generally to derp around in the lower elos, and those who do it for the sake of boosting are not going to ignore the fact they had to get the account to level 30 first.

YvaelleJun 1, 20162 votes

No because the way it works is, you use 3 people to boost one person to diamond. Then you sell your 3 diamond smurf accounts for additional income.

ZaryelleJun 1, 20167 votes

They just need to separate the queues by solo and premades. They're so afraid of making queue times longer that they're making the game unfair for solo players.

XonraJun 1, 20167 votes

""We agree dynamic queue standings don't reflect pure individual skill as well as a solo ladder"

"But we are still going to judge you as if it does, and base ranked rewards in the same way"

AtheosisXJun 1, 20166 votes

Considering it still ranks individual players, their logic is laughably absurd.

I was LupxelJun 1, 20166 votes

I dont understand too. Like if you want to play with friends you go fucking NORMAL. You dont see kids playing football in a stadium, you see them in a playground. Why is Riit mixing it

Kuroi86Jun 1, 20163 votes

"We agree dynamic queue standings don't reflect pure individual skill as well as a solo ladder"

Sure, lets focus on this sentence instead of the fact that they have changes in mind to increase the impact of solo skills vs teams.

The WhamboozlerJun 1, 201610 votes

What? What changes can they POSSIBLY make to set things out as fair?

None. They're going to raise the effective rank for premades or something... to make the numbers show them having 50% winrates overall. That isn't balance. That isn't fair.

Fair is all ten players being on the same footing at the start of the freaking game. Either they are ALL premade 5v5 teams, and thus all have access to the same level of coordination... or they are ALL solo players, and are ALL dealing with the issues of solo queue. No number fixes will make dynamic queue fair to everyone playing it. Some players will just have an inherant advantage from the beginning and NOT because of skill or proper runes or champ select... but merely because they are playing with a group. They're playing the "right" way.

Dynamic Queue will NEVER be fair. It will NEVER be reflection of skill. The only way to make it fair, would be to take away what it is, and revert it to true solo queue. Riot won't do this. And thus... none of the changes they have in mind will make me hate the mode any less. They're just going to push numbers around until they can point to some impersonal computer data and say "this is even on paper" and call it settled.