With this new set of Malzahar nerfs...

Malicious Metal··165 votes·6,651 views

Can we just agree his rework was a failure and revert him already?!

176 Comments

Redesignated57 votes

He's getting the Azir/Kalista treatment of old — nerfed into the grave until they can fix how horribly they mangled him. He wasn't even particularly well-designed before the update, but now… Christ. It's depressing.

Kensue8 votes

[deleted]

Troll for Trump9 votes

What?

No.

Those champs are just added to the rework list, but at the bottom, in terms of priority?

Why? Because of the reasons you mentioned; some champs need it more. Champs like old poppy, yorick and urgot needed updates more than the new champs, which have updated designs and abilities, but aren't healthy for the game.

They devote their times into updating those champs, while temporarily nerfing the new problematic champs, because they simply don't have the workforce for it.

I believe they have two rework teams? The one that did Yorick went to do Urgot while the other finished up WW. Now, as the Urgot is being finished, the WW team moved on to Eve. Why not Azir, Kalista, or Malz? Because they need the updates less than Urgot and Eve. But, if left in their current states, they'd cause problems to the game. So, the only way they can fix it is by nerfs. If nerfs/buffs don't produce satisfactory results, the champ needs to be gutted.

The third "update team" is the class update team, which I believe is working on divers. When those guys get the chance, they'll pick up some outdated champs and give them some tuning in the corresponding class update, often making them a "small rework." Those occur alongside other problematic class champs that needed more changes.

Thus, you get champs like Velkoz, Malz, Annie, and Fid as small updates in the MYMU.

It's not mediocre, sloppy, or unprofessional.

If something is messed up this horribly, you spend time to fix it first. I get that they want to push things forward, but when you pile crap on top of crap it adds up and people leave due to the stench

And what's causing a bigger stench right now? Urgot literally being shit-tier, or Malz?

SociopathFriend22 votes

I find this treatment extremely unprofessional and that it encourages mediocrity at Riot.

I find it's easy to trashtalk companies when players often don't run a company nor have experience in game design- and even the ones who do have either of those qualities don't have them anywhere near the level Riot does.

If something is messed up this horribly, you spend time to fix it first.

Not at the cost of pushing back prior projects, no. That is essentially tossing aside money, effort, and the set timetable- the epitome of unprofessional practices.

Urgot's rework has been planned for a long time now. It's his turn on the schedule and they've divided up time, resources, and all manner of things to accommodate this schedule. Changing it up on a metaphorical dime is only going to lead to rushed solutions that bring you right back to the problem board again.

They'll just push them away until they get a 'rework' when they have only been out for a year (Vel'Koz for example)

I imagine you're talking about the Mage Rework because otherwise Vel'Koz was virtually never touched. And he was updated to give him more options and an actual reason to be picked beyond damage- which he didn't have before. Now he has to choose between maxing Q and W. Now he has to land several skills to get the full potential out of his ultimate. Now he's got a proper niche as the tank-buster since he can ignore resistances. He also was fairly easy to update, Urgot required a full-scale overhaul, another reason the schedule is so important and shouldn't be changed on a whim.

Malz is likely on the schedule, but the changes they need for him will likely wait until a suitable opportunity.

Troll for Trump9 votes

At least Azir and Kalista didn't get kicked out of jungle

Serika Zero10 votes

he was well-designed before update. He had good points and bad points. Talking only about the AP mid malza (got no experience with jungle ad one) Good points: anti assassin, does damage with his spells, good mid to late game scaling, good peal for his adc, very good zone control Bad points: can only peal one target off his adc (weak to multiple divers), weak to poke, no escapes, almost always pushes lane (which is bad because no escape)

The rework initially had his power "evenly" distributed around his kit. And he was very broken back then. Then his ult got gutted to the point its just a suppress and nothing else. His Q is a silence with mediocre (low) damage. And bad scaling. His E got nerfed and now does even less damage, because now you need to hit the E target with your Q close to the end of the E duration to refresh the E on the enemy to do a bit slightly more damage than before. And this is bad because his E bounces, it was great for faming minions. But if you now need EQ to kill one minion, the E bounce won't kill the other = failure

So, where did all of Malzahar's power went: to his W and passive.

Ginger Bread Zed5 votes

only problem is hes a support now when hes intended to be a midlane mage. someones doing something wrong at riot if this keeps happening [zombie-brand-clap]

Legacy Hydralpha35 votes

But here at Riot Games, we don't make mistakes!

  • Rusty Blitzcrank
  • Morde's 200 bugs
  • Yasuo
  • Kog'Maw rework
  • Lethality buffs
  • Malzahar rework
  • Trying to fix Tank Shaco
Cosmic Warper10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Legacy Hydralpha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r4lu1zqW,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-04-05T01:41:56.772+0000)

But here at Riot Games, we don't make mistakes!

  • Rusty Blitzcrank
  • Morde's 200 bugs
  • Yasuo
  • Kog'Maw rework
  • Lethality buffs
  • Malzahar rework
  • Trying to fix Tank Shaco

don't forget morde rework, skarner rework, kalista, kindred

Voluug139 votes

Karma rework was the start of everything bad, I tell you.

Ahristocats33 votes

for those interested:

base armor reduced to 18 voidlings hp reduced to 2

-gH

SweedishGunner21 votes

Lmfao. So now those that have empowered autos or AA modifiers one shot your primary source of damage. Nice one Rito.

Big Lincoln20 votes

Illaoi join the club

Pommel Knight5 votes

Yorick That's cute.

Elikain6 votes

Except that when you cast Illaoi's ult, tentacles spawn per enemy hit (her W counts as well) and are invulnerable and can't be targeted for a few seconds.

It's not like you're being denied your primary source of damage.

Nilok23 votes

Malzahar is a pale shadow of the well designed champion he was before. His gameplay no longer fits his theme or lore. Giving him the ability to summon on an ability at will just turned him into Yorick 1.5.

Just revert him already!

Handin Out Naps8 votes

Well designed and Malz should never be put in the same sentence. Unless there is an "was not" there aswell.

Paroe11 votes

{quoted}

Well designed and Malz should never be put in the same sentence. Unless there is an "was not" there aswell.

So malazhar has always had at least one change or nerf every couple patches since release right? No? Just since the rework?

Huh. Its almost like pre-rework malzahar was balanced as an anti-assassin with clearly defined weaknesses and a potent niche.

Handin Out Naps2 votes

Yeah everyone enjoyed his niche of keep the lane pushed and never interact. Screams well designed.

Nilok2 votes

To seem to be thinking of rework Malzahar. Original Malzahar's Voidling passive forced him to interact to make the most of his passive, as otherwise it would be a massive waste of mana and time for CDs.

You could be non-interactive, but then you would be out of mana, have no CDs, and be an easy kill.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

You're a bad Malz then lol if you ran out of Mana before the Rework.

Nilok1 votes

I never said I ran out of mana, but I played Malzahar correctly as a mid-close range battle mage.

If you wanted to play non-interactively as UrZedM8 suggested, you were going to run out of mana, be behind in farm, and have a full hp opponent.

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

I had a game once vs a Morg mid. After 5 minutes in, all we did was throw out our respective wave clearing abilities, and then walked away. Never ran out of mana, was top in CS, and was one of the least interactive, while extremely funny imo, lanes I've ever had.

If you play Mal right, you're not going to run out of mana, ever.

TheHappyReaperz19 votes

As bad as the current Malzahar is, reverting him is not a good idea.

INoble KnightI25 votes

Old Malz at least had fucking counterplay and felt satisfying to play as and kill. This new malz is shit and has been shit since the rework.

TheHappyReaperz11 votes

What counterplay did old Malz have? Buying a QSS? Trying to stop his free lane push? He no doubt felt satisfying to play as, but he was not fun to play against.

Beacon Academy14 votes

QSS was only a minor annoyance honestly as the flat damage from Nether Grasp still went through.

He was an immobile mage that pushed a lane. This is apparently a team game, so put 2 and 2 together.

TheHappyReaperz4 votes

You misunderstand. Malz didn't push the lane. That minion he got, you know, for playing the game, it pushed the lane. Malz could just hang back. Plus, odds are you would have picked up a Rylias, which mean your AOE pool woould slow, which you could then refresh with a nice 3s Silence.

Beacon Academy16 votes

???


Malz didn't push the lane. That minion he got, you know, for playing the game, it pushed the lane.

Requires 4 spells, Malzahar was a mana hungry mofo early game. Not to mention Voidlings don't get tanky till 7 seconds after being spawned. They can't solo minion waves early game.

Malz could just hang back.

Also the Voidlings didn't have any sort of minion execute or bonus damage against minions. You still had to go and last hit during the laning phase.

Plus, odds are you would have picked up a Rylias, which mean your AOE pool woould slow, which you could then refresh with a nice 3s Silence.

Once again... MANA HUNGRY until around level 5-7ish when E had more ranks on it.

The silence on Q wouldn't be 3s until level 13 assuming you put at least 1 point in Null Zone. The laning phase would be long over.


Just FYI for the old spells:

Q -> 80 Mana Rank 1 W -> 90 Mana Rank 1 E -> 60 Mana Rank 1 to 120 Mana Rank 5

He starts with 326 mana and only gets 10 mana (14 with Doran's Ring) back per minion kill at the start of the laning phase.

You didn't just spam shit hoping it works early game. You had to plan out how to effectively use the least amount of mana.


If you can't figure out an obvious counter to a champion who's ult only worked on one person in a team game... I can't help yah buddy.

Nilok16 votes

You never actually played as Malzahar, did you?

Malzahar's voidlings had a tight agro range, which forced Malzahar to keep up with the minion wave, or at the very lest be in Visions range to keep them up with the push.

Also, that minion you got "for playing the game" was also the best designed non-ultimate minion ability in the game as it forced Malzahar to manage his spells and mana to get his Voidlings and stay within range of his target as they were very expensive to simply waste. Even with mana recovery which was to help with spawning more Voidlings, you had to stay within medium to close range to keep it going, preventing stand off plays like classic Yorick and current Malzahar.

Frnak4 votes

Not to mention long ass CDs. Afraid of his R? Wait for E to pop on wave, bait out Q, gasp, suddenly % W and Nethergrasp is the only thing left for 50 years. That generally meant flashing or dying. But noooo, wait around until the wave is gone for some reason and all CDs are back up and THEN try to dive Malz. Yeah, that'll work great.

A full rotation combo required not pushing, not doing anything for 10+ seconds. R/W by themselves would not kill an assassin at full hp. Ever.

GrReaper9623 votes

Agreed. Old malz your spells felt impactful. New malz you hope your voidlings dont die too fast

Looknook5 votes

He doesn't even really work well as an anti-assassin Mage anymore. Before when getting jumped by an assassin it was difficult to get off all of your spells before using ult within a short window but it was possible.

Now you have to W then E then hope W is off cool down. Then ult. The delay on his W just makes him feel bad against assassins in Midlane while making him overbearing against immobile opponents, especially when Malz gets Rylais.

Mira Arya Enthe18 votes

I remember this champion. I had something like 50% of all my games on him over three seasons. sigh

Frnak3 votes

I legit used him to get into Plat. Few people played him. Most didn't have experience versus him. It was delish. I think my highest %winrate was around 70%...

...and then the rework came.

Sexy Jack Rabbit15 votes

At least the old Malzahar wasn't played a support. He just feels AWFUL to play AS, because they've been forced to make him so fucking weak. Secondly he feels AWFUL to play against because his physically lacks counter play. Wtf am I supposed to do about a point and click Damage over time?

At least Teemo has to fire a projectile from his AA range, or I have to be dumb enough to walk on his shrooms At least Brands doesn't cause little fire demons to chase after me, and at least it is percentage health and just not flat.

Xilixer3 votes

malzahar has always been known for his click dot. especially as old malz. which requires him to be awfully close to actually use it meaning you can punish him for it.

Scary Door12 votes

What I don't get is: What was wrong with Malz the way he was prior to the MYMU (6.9)? He was strong but certainly not "broken". When I refer to "broken" I mean he is now either completely overpowered (like he was right after the MYMU) or practically a troll pick because he's so meager (which is what he is now). He's not even a top notch support but certainly a better support than mid laner at this point.

It's becoming clear that Riot cannot properly balance new or reworked champions anymore. Examples:

Azir - on release he was buggy, overpowered and absolutely not fun to play against.

Aurellion Sol - Very linear playstyle, boring, had a sickeningly low win rate until fairly recently. His design is hard to balance in the first place so he is always in a tough spot.

Taliyah - On the scrap heap. Nerfed to the ground and not really viable now especially after changing her original W.

Ivern - Garbage initially, then buffed continuously and is now top 10 win rate champion.

Camile - So strong on release that she had to be hot fixed and has since been nerfed to death... I never see her anymore.

Ryze - That speaks for itself.

None of this bodes well for the new champions they are releasing, does it?

ninjaroxas3 votes

I think they did it because people thought he was unhealthy not sure though.

Bonus points for mentioning taliyah's w

A Bad Nasus11 votes

Notice the timing of these nerfs, we get a preview of 2 new champions along with 4 new skins total. Seems to me like they are just trying to drown these nerfs underneath the new content we'll be expecting next patch because they don't know what the hell to do with him.

At least Shen got some fucking context and the direction they're trying to take on him, but Malzahar ? nah lets just hope no one notices and move on.

Beacon Academy3 votes

Almost like the lowered burst before Assassin Reworks

Or taking away tanky Voidlings before Yorick rework...

Cough

Enloct9 votes

The only time they've done that they gave the justification that they thought Kog was in a decent spot before the rework. Other abominations like Mordekaiser Rengar Malzahar etc probably won't be so lucky.

GrReaper9613 votes

Malz wasnt particularly bad before his rework. Niche and simple perhaps but definitely not OP or oppressive

Troll for Trump4 votes

He isn't really OP now, and, while still opressive, not as much as when he just came out of the MYMU. He's about on the same lvl as old Malz now.

Rengar's honestly better than he was before the rework. I'll miss crit build though. The rework still made him obnoxious to deal with, but not as bad as before.

Idk about Morde, but he wasn't doing anything significant except for a few onetricks.

Voluug1310 votes

'''''Oppressive''''' was just against assassins that didnt respect his range, and literally every other mage in the game countered him hard or reduced it to fair lane.

And he isnt on the same lvl that old Malz, old Malz had definite match-ups and strenghts, and was never touched aside voidling AI polishing. New Malz is so horrible to play and play against because enforced minion master that he is in like his 5th or 6th round of nerfs, not counting how MYMU and the following nerfs utterly destroyed his midlane itemization.

Nymzo9 votes

If only they would have give him another ult instead of moving all his dmg to the voidlings and give him a free Banshee veil.

lightdragoon885 votes

It wasn't the rework itself that failed.

It was the STUPID changes in 6.23 that turn him into a 'support' that failed.

4NoxiousHours3 votes

For those wondering why he was nerf'd, it was because of those people who took him as support.

VoraciousX24 votes

{quoted}

For those wondering why he was nerf'd, it was because of those people who took him as support.

The reason people took him support in the first place is because Riot decided that a fast wave pusher shouldn't be able to push waves anymore. The rework on his minions is what caused him to be played support in the first place. If a pusher can't push, what is he supposed to do? Being played support got rid of these weaknesses because he no longer had to push, and considering he was already an immobile mage vulnerable to ganks, that got rid of his other glaring weaknesses. Riot made him be played support, and then nerfed his solo lane even more making him stay in the support role.

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